OKC Public Schools perception

[warreng88]

I am only 33 years old so I don't really know what it is like when looking for schools, but why does it seem like I know so many people moving to Edmond for the schools when there are great schools here in OKC?

Here are the Elementary Schools with 8-10 ratings according to zillow.com in NW OKC: Horace Mann, Wilson, Dennis, Columbus Enterprise, Quail Creek, Nichols Hills, Harvest Hills and Rolling Wood

Middle Schools with 8-10 ratings in NW OKC: Classen SAS, Belle Isle, KIPP Reach Prep, Oakdale and Hefner

High Schools with 8-10 ratings in NW OKC: Classen SAS, Dove Science Academy, Harding Charter Prep and PC North

Is the problem the perception of OKCPS or is it my friends?

[jdcf]

Although some of the schools listed are in Putnam City school district and not Oklahoma City schools, there are indeed oustanding educational opportunities within OKCPS. Parental involvement is a significant factor toward improving educational outcome. Our children have attended parochial schools and public schools in OKCPS and Edmond.

[adaniel]

Just a continuation of white flight. Given the last census estimate showed growth in OKC now exceeding that of its suburbs, I thought this was slowing down.

Don't get me wrong, there are indeed some issues with OKCPS, so I can't get mad at folks if they are skittish over them. But its no worse than any other urban school district. And by most measures, Harding and Classen SAS are considered the best HS's in the state (although these are both magnets schools so its no guarantee your kid will get into it).

I went to one of the top school districts in Texas, but that didn't stop 21 kids in our town from ODing on heroin. And frankly, there were some real losers in my high school that came from what were supposedly good homes. Nowadays, parental involvement and household stability is far bigger indicators of student success than what school district you are in.

[BoulderSooner]

Just a continuation of white flight. Given the last census estimate showed growth in OKC now exceeding that of its suburbs, I thought this was slowing down.

Don't get me wrong, there are indeed some issues with OKCPS, so I can't get mad at folks if they are skittish over them. But its no worse than any other urban school district. And by most measures, Harding and Classen SAS are considered the best HS's in the state (although these are both magnets schools so its no guarantee your kid will get into it).

I went to one of the top school districts in Texas, but that didn't stop 21 kids in our town from ODing on heroin. And frankly, there were some real losers in my high school that came from what were supposedly good homes. Nowadays, parental involvement and household stability is far bigger indicators of student success than what school district you are in.

growth in okc is not exceeding that of its suburbs ... please show me that info??

[adaniel]

growth in okc is not exceeding that of its suburbs ... please show me that info??

Urban vs. Suburban Growth in U.S. Metros - Nate Berg - The Atlantic Cities

Metro Area City Growth Rate Suburb Growth Rate Difference
Oklahoma City, OK 1.7% 1.5% 0.2%

[bchris02]

This problem is not unique to OKC. This city is fortunate to have Putnam City schools in its city limits because without it, OKC would likely look like Little Rock, with the city limits being much smaller in population and made up of the very wealthy and very poor, but without much of a middle class. If people think OKC sprawl is bad, its nothing like Little Rock considering its size. The poster above is right that OKC schools are no different than other urban districts and therein is the problem. The young professionals today flocking to downtown are likely to flee to the suburbs once they have school-age children, unless they can afford private school.

[BoulderSooner]

Urban vs. Suburban Growth in U.S. Metros - Nate Berg - The Atlantic Cities

thanks ...

[DoctorTaco]

This problem is not unique to OKC. This city is fortunate to have Putnam City schools in its city limits because without it, OKC would likely look like Little Rock, with the city limits being much smaller in population and made up of the very wealthy and very poor, but without much of a middle class. If people think OKC sprawl is bad, its nothing like Little Rock considering its size. The poster above is right that OKC schools are no different than other urban districts and therein is the problem. The young professionals today flocking to downtown are likely to flee to the suburbs once they have school-age children, unless they can afford private school.

As one of these young urban professionals of which you speak, I am placing a TON of hope and expectation into the Rex Charter Elementary. It will come online just as my oldest enters Kindergarten. If it were a good school that would be so awesome.

This being Oklahoma City, where on a daily basis great ideas face half-assed implementation and must then be fixed post-facto, I expect to be disapointed with the school, at least at first. Still, once I discovered I was priced out of the Wilson Elementary boundaries, Rex is my only hope.

[bombermwc]

OCPS faced a lot of barriers for advancement with the absolutely pitiful leadership it had for so long. Mismanagement for decades caused it to fall much faster than it should have. When Bob Moore took over, things really started changing. Not only because of the change in sytles, but the flushing of staff at the admin level. The same thing happened in Mid-Del....new superintendant clears house from the old person's cronies...magically things start to work properly. Of course, he isn't there any more...and really wasn't there that long. But he did servce the purpose of starting the new trend.

Unfortunately, we've had a continued precense of poor leadership with principals. Places like Douglas should never have been allowed to have things like that happen. The Superintendant gets flack for it (partly rightly so because it was allowed to fall through), but he also should deserve some of the credit for finding the issue instead of leaving it for the next person.

I feel like the main issue is still getting parents involved. If you get the parents involved and interested in their child's schooling, it makes a HUGE difference. THAT is what makes the difference in the test scores. A million different programs by the district can only do so much. At the end of the day, the parents have to make the children understand that it's important to do well. The practical nature of a lot of OCPS is single-parent housholds, or poverty level homes that the parents have to work multiple jobs and simply can't be there to help. It's the million dollar question. You solve that, you are a magician.

[SoonerDave]

I feel like the main issue is still getting parents involved. If you get the parents involved and interested in their child's schooling, it makes a HUGE difference.

You may not believe this, but there is a no trivial amount of sentiment among at least some of the cognoscenti of education that says parent involvement doesn't matter a bit. Keep in mind that sentiment is at least part of what you're fighting in shifting those attitudes within the school system. I wouldn't have believed there was an educator these days that subscribed to that had I not heard it myself from a current administrator who, apparently, agrees with it.

I was absolutely astonished.

[PennyQuilts]

You may not believe this, but there is a no trivial amount of sentiment among at least some of the cognoscenti of education that says parent involvement doesn't matter a bit. Keep in mind that sentiment is at least part of what you're fighting in shifting those attitudes within the school system. I wouldn't have believed there was an educator these days that subscribed to that had I not heard it myself from a current administrator who, apparently, agrees with it.

I was absolutely astonished.

I've got relatives in the business - high up - who get positively incensed if I say it takes community involvement as if that is not only stupid, but racist.

[SoonerDave]

I've got relatives in the business - high up - who get positively incensed if I say it takes community involvement as if that is not only stupid, but racist.

Penny, I'm afraid what you're experiencing is something I"ve seen as well. I want to be very careful how I phrase this, because I know many hard working teachers (including my spouse) and educators that are *not* like this, but there is within a substantial cross section of the educational population a nearly militant attitude about anyone's ideas regarding public education other than their own. There is an unmistakable arrogance within this very specific "layer" of administration. If you dare to assert an opinion contrary to what this cross-section deems to be right, you're treated with condescension and, at times, anger for daring to challenge virtually any aspect of their wisdom. There's almost a religious intensity to it, and I wouldn't have believed it existed if I hadn't experienced it myself. Within their "inner circle," they are right. Period. External input isn't welcome or considered, it is dismissed out of hand. Its an academic reinvention of the "Not Invented Here" syndrome.

This entrenched mindset, though I reiterate that it is not shared by all in the educational establishment, is present in sufficient strength to make its influence unavoidable. The mindset is detrimental, IMHO, to any efforts at engaging the community, parents, citizens, etc. back into the schools. And I have no idea how we overcome it.

[Architect2010]

Very much perception my friend. I can't believe you used Zillow, of all sites, which is just clouded with assumption and biased opinion.

According to Oklahoma Department of Education for the 2011-2012 school year, there are quite a few OKCPS schools who fared with a 'B'or better. You can also look up API scores for districts and individual schools which break down a school's performance much more accurately.

Highschools Middle Schools Elementary

PUBLIC AND MAGNET SCHOOLS
• Belle Isle Middle School: A
• Classen School of Advanced Studies: A [MAGNET]
• Pierce Elementary School: A
• Buchanan Elementary School: B
• Classen Middle School of Advanced Studies: B [MAGNET]
• Cleveland Elementary School: B
• Columbus Elementary School: B
• Eugene Field Elementary School: B
• Horace Mann Elementary School: B
• Nichols Hills Elementary School: B
• Quail Creek Elementary School: B
• Southeast High School: B [MAGNET]
• Westwood Elementary School: B
• Wilson Elementary School: B

CHARTER SCHOOLS
• Dove Science Academy-Oklahoma City: A
• Harding Charter Preparatory High School: A
• Kipp Reach College Preparatory: A
• ASTEC Charter High School: B
• Dove Science Academy-Oklahoma City Elementary School: B
• Harding Fine Arts Academy: B
• Independence Charter Middle School: B

Also, USNEWS released the top high schools in the nation and for each state for the 2011-2012 academic year. There are 4 OKCPS high schools in the Top 20 for Oklahoma. The top 2 in Oklahoma are OKCPS schools:

#1 Harding Charter Preparatory [CHARTER] Ranked #145 in the entire nation
#2 Classen SAS [MAGNET] Ranked #337 in the entire nation
#7 Dove Science Academy [CHARTER] Ranked #1001 in the entire nation
#18 Southeast High School [MAGNET] Ranked #1838 in the entire nation

Also, if that factual data does not persuade you, I even have some empirical data for you: I myself graduated from Southeast HS in 2010. I was one of 20 Valedictorians in a class of 150, 25+ National Honor Society students, I was one of 3 Oklahoma Academic Scholars [above 28 ACT], and almost all of the students in my class have had at least 1 year in college. We did not wear uniforms, we did not have gang fights and brawls, there were no gun incidents other than a criminal trying to break into the school my sophomore year. I myself went to UCO on a scholarship with about 10 other kids from my grade alone. Other have taken advantage of free tuition at OCCC or attend the other local universities and colleges around the city and state. I am very proud to be a Spartan and I was well prepared for college with my 15 AP credit hours and Web Design training that is a part of Southeast's focus on technology through the magnet program. I am now a Graphic Design major at UCO thanks to the inspiration of my Web Design teacher, Mrs. Ceville. I am an excellent example of what type of students OKCPS is able to produce should you take full advantage of what the district is able to offer. So many of my friends from Webster CHOSE TO GO TO CAPITOL HILL just because it was deemed "cooler" and it wasn't "stuck-up" like SEHS [It completely baffled me that they would choose CH over SE for reasons not related to the well-being of their education]. If we want to produce better students, we need to teach them to make the right choices. That begins with familial and community support.

[SoonerDave]

I was one of 20 Valedictorians in a class of 150, 25+ National Honor Society students, I was one of 3 Oklahoma Academic Scholars [above 28 ACT]

This comment is *not* directed to you Architect, nor at OKCPS in particular, but in the broader realm the context of one observation you made - one that thoroughly bugs me about how we assess performance: A senior class of 150 students had 20 valedictorians - 13% of the class? And 16% were NHS students?

When I graduated HS 30+ years ago, our class of over 1,000 students had, as I recall, three valedictorians and one, perhaps two salutatorians. There was nowhere near 160 members in our NHS chapter, either. For this characteristic to be so pervasive across multiple schools districts (surely not peculiar to OKCPS), I can't help but be concerned just how severely we've loosened the general standards for, well, everything.

[Architect2010]

This comment is *not* directed to you Architect, nor at OKCPS in particular, but in the broader realm the context of one observation you made - one that thoroughly bugs me about how we assess performance: A senior class of 150 students had 20 valedictorians - 13% of the class? And 16% were NHS students?

When I graduated HS 30+ years ago, our class of over 1,000 students had, as I recall, three valedictorians and one, perhaps two salutatorians. There was nowhere near 160 members in our NHS chapter, either. For this characteristic to be so pervasive across multiple schools districts (surely not peculiar to OKCPS), I can't help but be concerned just how severely we've loosened the general standards for, well, everything.

Oh definitely. I did clarify that portion of my post was personal experience and so of course it might be very different than how it was when you were in school.

In order to be a Valedictorian, we had to have a 4.00 GPA or greater upon completion of our curriculum. Of course, the highest ranked Valedictorian gave the speech and was awarded a gold medal, but we all had the ropes and award. Technically, we were salutatorians but OKCPS awards all the students who have above the 4.0 mark with the title of 'Valedict". I do see what you mean, but does that not change the fact that 13% of the class had above a 4.0? It's just a title. In order to graduate in white with the NHS, we had to maintain above a 3.5 GPA and have 20 hours of community service work in and out of school, in addition to the 30 hours required to graduate. Me and a few other students had 100+.

Also, there were not 160 students in the NHS in my class, more like 35. Just to clarify.

[SoonerDave]

Oh definitely. I did clarify that portion of my post was personal experience and so of course it might be very different than how it was when you were in school. H

In order to be a Valedictorian, we had to have a 4.00 GPA or greater. Of course, the highest ranked Valedictorian gave the speech and was awarded a gold medal, but we all had the ropes and award plaque. What were the requirements back then? In order to graduate in white with the NHS, we had to maintain above a 3.5 GPA and have 20 hours of community service work in and out of school, in addition to the 30 hours required to graduate. Me and a few other students had 100+.

In my era, there was no such thing as a "above 4.00" GPA. An "A" in Calc was no better than an "A" in basket weaving, and we really had no such thing as truly "AP" classes (which, incidentally, killed me for any chance at valedictorian or salutatorian honors, because I had a driver's ed teacher who quite blithely volunteered he was going to shaft me with a "B" over a dispute on an extra credit assignment...all while my transcript was covered with straight-A's throughout advanced, college-level math and computing courses....but I'm not bitter ). NHS members graduated with an honors sash rather than a different robe, IIRC, but we did not have the hard community service requirement. It was an academic achievement. Graduates in the top 5% also had a special recognition tassel or cord, as I recall.

When I graduated, both or all three valedictorians (don't remember if we had two or three) gave a commencement speech. That was a matter of faculty selection from all perfect GPA's, which was additionally more difficult in my era because the district gave out "minus" grades, eg A, A-, B, B-, and that's not done much if at all today. No idea how college calc, computer lab, or self-paced literature studies would have mapped out in the AP/GPA world.

What my kids are or have gone through in what's being called "AP Geometry" as a freshman was stuff I recall doing as just a regular class back in 7th or 8th grade. When I was a senior, we had college-equivalent Calculus, and my son as a junior hasn't even had an equivalent to my analytical geometry class that preceded calc. I do think they've had a more thorough treatment of biology than I did, however.

[warreng88]

Very much perception my friend. I can't believe you used Zillow, of all sites, which is just clouded with assumption and biased opinion.

Honestly, I was looking at houses on the website and they have a link to what schools are ranked where based on the greatschools.org website. I know there are plenty of ranking systems out there and this was just one of them. I lived in Tulsa and attended MacArthur Elementary and Whitney Middle School. My brother (two years older) Whitney Middle School and Hale High School, we both were in the top 20% of our graduating classes and both went on to great colleges so I don't think it has as much to do with the schools as much as how people perceive them.

[jerrywall]

I am only 33 years old so I don't really know what it is like when looking for schools, but why does it seem like I know so many people moving to Edmond for the schools when there are great schools here in OKC?

Here are the Elementary Schools with 8-10 ratings according to zillow.com in NW OKC: Horace Mann, Wilson, Dennis, Columbus Enterprise, Quail Creek, Nichols Hills, Harvest Hills and Rolling Wood

Middle Schools with 8-10 ratings in NW OKC: Classen SAS, Belle Isle, KIPP Reach Prep, Oakdale and Hefner

High Schools with 8-10 ratings in NW OKC: Classen SAS, Dove Science Academy, Harding Charter Prep and PC North

Is the problem the perception of OKCPS or is it my friends?

Hell, you answered your own question, so I'm not sure if you were intentionally trying to twist stats to put it into question.

Every single Edmond high school (regular, public schools, that every single kid in Edmond will be able to attend) has a 10 rating in Greatschools (which Zillow uses).

For you to find schools in OKC with 8-10 ratings, you had to use 2 charter, 1 magnet, and 1 non-OKCPS school. Which means not a single regular OKCPS high school in Okc was an 8-10. In fact the highest was a singlular 7, with most of the rest being 1's and 2's (there is one 4) Seems pretty obvious to me there is a difference. The district as a whole has a rating of 4. Edmond has a rating of 9. So if you're taking advice from zillow.com it seems like the answer was right there.

Yeah, I guess if you move around throughout the district over the course of your child's school career, and you kid works very hard and is very lucky and get's into one of the "special" schools, then you can do OK. But it's amazing how many OKC teachers move to Edmond or Norman when they have kids, so their kids can attend those districts rather than OKC's.

Yeah, there are some decent schools in the OKCPS, but there are some very bad ones too.

[PennyQuilts]

When they started mainstreaming special ed kids into the regular classrooms, and at just about the same time, started funneling the brighter students into the gifted/talented classes, we began creating schools with a small track for the brightest (typically kids with supportive parents and few discipline problems), and other classrooms full of discipline problems, kids with a wide variety of aptitude and interest, and spotty family support. Depending on where your child fell, they had a significantly different educational experience even within the same school. Hate to say it, but there it is.

[blink]

This comment is *not* directed to you Architect, nor at OKCPS in particular, but in the broader realm the context of one observation you made - one that thoroughly bugs me about how we assess performance: A senior class of 150 students had 20 valedictorians - 13% of the class? And 16% were NHS students?

When I graduated HS 30+ years ago, our class of over 1,000 students had, as I recall, three valedictorians and one, perhaps two salutatorians. There was nowhere near 160 members in our NHS chapter, either. For this characteristic to be so pervasive across multiple schools districts (surely not peculiar to OKCPS), I can't help but be concerned just how severely we've loosened the general standards for, well, everything.

This bugs me as well. I graduated in 2008 from Edmond and we had 30-40 valedictorians. The bulk had taken all regular classes throughout high school while only a select few had taken all AP, Pre-AP classes. Whatever makes people feel special I guess. It seems most TX schools only have 1 valedictorian, at least in the DFW area (since they use the weighted average for it).

[Midtowner]

Charters have two ways of selecting students--first come/fist serve or by lottery. They are not allowed by law to be selective. Before someone says something ignorant regarding them not serving children with special needs, they are also required to follow all state and federal laws regarding services to special needs students and serve many of such students.

[SoonerDave]

This bugs me as well. I graduated in 2008 from Edmond and we had 30-40 valedictorians. The bulk had taken all regular classes throughout high school while only a select few had taken all AP, Pre-AP classes. Whatever makes people feel special I guess. It seems most TX schools only have 1 valedictorian, at least in the DFW area (since they use the weighted average for it).

To me, that's more or less the outgrowth of the contemporary "everyone gets a trophy" mentality that is prevalent in society today as we've just become so hysterical over the "self esteem" ethos. The problem is, however, if we decide that nearly everyone is meritorious of a particular award, there immediately ceases to be anything special about it. Honor Society, valedictory selection, etc., are things that should be hard to achieve IMHO. It makes them worthy of respect, and something to desire/achieve.

[hatrick36]

Charters have two ways of selecting students--first come/fist serve or by lottery. They are not allowed by law to be selective. Before someone says something ignorant regarding them not serving children with special needs, they are also required to follow all state and federal laws regarding services to special needs students and serve many of such students.

Is this Oklahoma specific?

Because these two news stories would seem to indicate otherwise. They are national reporting, so perhaps Oklahoma's schools don't have these issues.

Special Report: Class Struggle - How charter schools get students they want

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/20/ed...abilities.html

[Midtowner]

Is this Oklahoma specific?

Because these two news stories would seem to indicate otherwise. They are national reporting, so perhaps Oklahoma's schools don't have these issues.

Special Report: Class Struggle - How charter schools get students they want

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/20/ed...abilities.html

Those would be called Magnet schools here. Charters are not allowed to discriminate whatsoever.

[zookeeper]

About those official grades, I wouldn't pay much attention to them. The corruption and test cheats in big city school systems are epidemic. I agree with SoonerDave and others that the schools need things that we can't even talk about. The NEA has more in common with La Cosa Nostra than Monroe Elementary School.