OKC vs Peer Cities

[warreng88]

you're obviously not a fan of live music.

OKC has gotten a whole hell of a lot better in live music recently. The Diamond Ballroom, although it may not look like much, is bringing in some great acts recently. It may not be bringing them in every other day, but their lineup recently, especially for hard rock, has been great. I went and saw Sevendust there in April and am going to see Halestorm tonight, Jimmy Eat World on 10/11, Jamey Johnson on 10/25, Clutch on 11/2 and Blue October in 12/6. The BOK Center may be bringing in some bigger names that can sell out the arena but The Peake has some great acts coming in as well as one of the best NBA teams in the country 41+ home games a year. The Chameloen Room and Conservatory are a few other place in OKC that are bringing in smaller acts a few nights a week.

The big argument for Tulsa's live music scene versus OKC is that most of Tulsa's descent live music venues are all in a confined area with the Brady and Cain's being four blocks away from each other and the Brady and BOK being five blocks away from each other. Whereas the Diamond Ballroom is south of I-240 on Eastern, The Chameleon Room is in a strip shopping center at 30th and Portland, the Conservatory is on Western between Wilshire and Britton. But Bricktown, with the growing popularity of ACM and the addition of the live music venue on the south side of Sheridan across from the new apartments will begin to get better whereas I think Tulsa is not growing, but stagnant in that area.

[AP]

you're obviously not a fan of live music.

The live music you're talking about though isn't something that a ton of people want to see. You're talking about small venues and indie performers.

[Edgar]

The live music you're talking about though isn't something that a ton of people want to see. You're talking about small venues and indie performers.

All genres actually- Buddy Guy, Lucinda Williams, Steely Dan, Widespread Panic, Gov.t Mule, Junior Brown, Black Crowes, Alice Cooper, Wierd Al, Vintage Trouble..... Not trying to be a contrarian, just Tulsa has an awesome music scene going on. We have a cool historic venue in the Zoo Amp but the Zoo trust ran off Howard Pollack and Innervisions and so far the results have been very disappointing unless your soley a fan of RedDirt and/or Christian rock. Thought the Farmers Market had great potential, the Black Crowes show there was epic, but it never got good crowds out I guess. Diamond Ballroom is ok went to the Kenny wayne Sheperd show there. Lots of those indie acts. Not a real nice part of town though. The coca cola events center should be banned from live music due to the acoustics, as should the ford center. Truth hurts apparently, but Tulsa has something really special going on with the live music scene. Travel up the pike and check it out. They're putting on a 2 day blues festival by the river Sept 12,22.

[Bellaboo]

If Tulsa has a 'special' something going on with a music scene, then that's just great, they need something. Just wonderful.

[HOT ROD]

I think we can give Tulsa their due on live music. But I think we all can agree that OKC is clearly the big brother who from now on will surely carry the state in most of not all areas, as it rightfully should given the population difference. Nothing wrong with Tulsa assuming their natural role as the #2 and both cities working together to bring the state more urban and progressive progress.

other states have two dominant cities and it works when they don't fight each other but instead fulfill their natural role and make the state better: Philly + Pitt, LA + SF, Minn + StP, Miami + Jax + Tampa + Orl, Sea + Tec + Spo, Stl + KC, Hou + Dal + SAT + AUS, and OKC + Tul.


Like those pairs, it can work being a one, two punch while still having both being amazing cities outright.

[bchris02]

If Tulsa has a 'special' something going on with a music scene, then that's just great, they need something. Just wonderful.

I don't think Tulsa has something special as much as OKC lacks a quality music venue like Cain's or the Brady. Edgar mentioned the ones OKC does have but none of them really compare to what Tulsa has. The Diamond is probably as good as it gets here and that leaves a lot to be desired and is in an out of the way location. A renovated Tower Theater however would fill that void. I think things like live music and other cultural attractions are important for a city and its ability to attract and retain young talent, especially as the national economy improves.

[Teo9969]

Music in Oklahoma is not special.

[HangryHippo]

Music in Oklahoma is not special.

This seems a little dramatic. You may not like it, but there's a lot of good music in Oklahoma.

[Teo9969]

This seems a little dramatic. You may not like it, but there's a lot of good music in Oklahoma.

Good and special are two very VERY different adjectives.

[HangryHippo]

Good and special are two very VERY different adjectives.

Fair enough. What do you consider special music and why do you feel music here isn't special?

[zookeeper]

I think what's being discussed here is the nurturing, support, and venues given to homegrown talent. I have to agree any reasonable person gives Tulsa the easy win there.

But the industry as a whole, you always read about how everything has been reversed. Bands used to tour only to promote record sales. Now, the records are released to time with the kick-off off the all-important and overpriced tours. To explain how much different things are today, The Beatles stopped touring in 1966. Take a look at all the great albums that were released and great songs that hit #1 after that. Times have changed.

But local musicians, they need our support with our dollars, our support, and hopefully more and better venues.

[Pete]

ACM @ UCO in Bricktown is just getting rolling and could lead to much more live music in OKC.

[Snowman]

Fair enough. What do you consider special music and why do you feel music here isn't special?

Probably the most special a place can be is one of the place that artists go to get discovered by record labels like LA, NY or London. Genres tend to have some other spots. After that it is most likely just a numbers game on population, where they know they have fans and with some impact of geograph to where the tour cities path goes.

[AP]

Truth hurts apparently, but Tulsa has something really special going on with the live music scene. Travel up the pike and check it out.

I was raised in Muskogee, so I spent my whole life checking it out. If that is the one cool thing Tulsa can claim, then so be it.

[Teo9969]

Allow me to turn the question on you, OnlyOne...what is "OKC music" or "Oklahoma Music"? Is the answer to that question genuine in.light of the answer for the same question for Memphis, New Orleans, NYC, Nashville, Philadelphia, Atlanta?

[Rover]

Spent time in St. Louis last week. Other than enjoying a great sweep of Pittsburgh, it really wasn't very exciting or interesting. It makes you appreciate what we have going on in OKC...especially downtown. Yes, there are some nice pockets and the trees and hills are picturesque. However, in total, St. Louis is sad. Many, many, many boarded up and falling down buildings. Big areas of downtown that are downright depressing. At night downtown seems very unsafe. You don't want to walk around and driving around is maddening. I sincerely hope we are NOT a peer city of St. Louis. I lived in St. Louis briefly years ago and had hoped it had progressed....it has not.

[bchris02]

Allow me to turn the question on you, OnlyOne...what is "OKC music" or "Oklahoma Music"? Is the answer to that question genuine in.light of the answer for the same question for Memphis, New Orleans, NYC, Nashville, Philadelphia, Atlanta?

Oklahoma (and OKC) music is most certainly red dirt country and various brands of gospel music. Tulsa's music scene however has that 'hipster' element and they are able to attract the type of bands that play in Austin, something OKC is not yet able to do. I would be willing to bet money though that once OKC has a respectable venue, we will start seeing those tours more split between OKC and Tulsa instead of them ALWAYS going to Tulsa.

Spent time in St. Louis last week. Other than enjoying a great sweep of Pittsburgh, it really wasn't very exciting or interesting. It makes you appreciate what we have going on in OKC...especially downtown. Yes, there are some nice pockets and the trees and hills are picturesque. However, in total, St. Louis is sad. Many, many, many boarded up and falling down buildings. Big areas of downtown that are downright depressing. At night downtown seems very unsafe. You don't want to walk around and driving around is maddening. I sincerely hope we are NOT a peer city of St. Louis. I lived in St. Louis briefly years ago and had hoped it had progressed....it has not.

Really? I have never been to St. Louis, but for the most part it is a more respected city than KCMO, and I think KCMO's downtown is pretty polished and vibrant (like Charlotte's). Is St. Louis really that bad?

[zookeeper]

Oklahoma (and OKC) music is most certainly red dirt country and various brands of gospel music. Tulsa's music scene however has that 'hipster' element and they are able to attract the type of bands that play in Austin, something OKC is not yet able to do. I would be willing to bet money though that once OKC has a respectable venue, we will start seeing those tours more split between OKC and Tulsa instead of them ALWAYS going to Tulsa.



Really? I have never been to St. Louis, but for the most part it is a more respected city than KCMO, and I think KCMO's downtown is pretty polished and vibrant (like Charlotte's). Is St. Louis really that bad?

Rover had it right. St. Louis has its pockets, but overall I'd take KC any day. And they have their problems too.

[bluedogok]

I think we can give Tulsa their due on live music. But I think we all can agree that OKC is clearly the big brother who from now on will surely carry the state in most of not all areas, as it rightfully should given the population difference. Nothing wrong with Tulsa assuming their natural role as the #2 and both cities working together to bring the state more urban and progressive progress.

other states have two dominant cities and it works when they don't fight each other but instead fulfill their natural role and make the state better: Philly + Pitt, LA + SF, Minn + StP, Miami + Jax + Tampa + Orl, Sea + Tec + Spo, Stl + KC, Hou + Dal + SAT + AUS, and OKC + Tul.


Like those pairs, it can work being a one, two punch while still having both being amazing cities outright.

Have you spent much time in those cities and time with long time residents? Most of them squabble like crazy between themselves and in many cases people in the less "popular" city despises the other. St Paul despises Minneapolis, Fort Worth despises Dallas, Houston despises Dallas, San Antonio despises Austin, in most cases the other city doesn't really care. That is just my experience from the time that I lived in Texas (Dallas and Austin) and did work in most of the major cities, I got the same feeling working in our office St. Paul.

I for one never understood that mentality, a strong Tulsa helps OKC and vice versa and that is the case for all of those pairs.

[stlokc]

Rover-
I realize this is an OKC message board, not St. Louis, so I don't want to dwell on this. But it is apparent to me that you didn't know where to go in St. Louis. St. Louis is miles ahead of OKC in all things urban, cultural and nightlife-oriented. There are a thousand interesting and fun places in St. Louis. I think, when I see this, of how easy it is to characterize a town when you go as a tourist. I hope the average visitor to OKC is more adept at figuring out our hometown than you obviously were in STL. I don't mean this as a put-down. You were a visitor. How is OKC marketing itself to visitors, are they able to adequately find OKC's gems? Hope so. OKC won't be a "peer" to STL for at least a couple of decades.

[bchris02]

Have you spent much time in those cities and time with long time residents? Most of them squabble like crazy between themselves and in many cases people in the less "popular" city despises the other. St Paul despises Minneapolis, Fort Worth despises Dallas, Houston despises Dallas, San Antonio despises Austin, in most cases the other city doesn't really care. That is just my experience from the time that I lived in Texas (Dallas and Austin) and did work in most of the major cities, I got the same feeling working in our office St. Paul.

I for one never understood that mentality, a strong Tulsa helps OKC and vice versa and that is the case for all of those pairs.

In North Carolina, there is definitely a Charlotte vs Raleigh rivalry, though there it definitely helps that the cities are farther apart in that Raleigh's gain isn't Charlotte's loss and vice versa. I would say the Houston/Dallas, St Louis/Kansas City, and Little Rock/Northwest Arkansas rivalries are similar in that they are far enough apart they don't really affect each other negatively or positively. I can definitely see San Antonio despising Austin. They are right down the road and are the larger, most historic city, but are treated like a red headed stepchild almost compared to Austin. Ft Worth/Dallas and MPLS/St Paul are unique in that they share metro areas, so what happens to one benefits the other easily.

OKC and Tulsa on the other hand are just far enough to be completely separate entities, but close enough where sometimes the success of one comes at the cost of the other. That is one reason I think there is so much tension between Oklahoma's two largest cities compared to other states. Tulsa has enjoyed its time in the sun since the 1980s and now the focus is shifting back in the direction of OKC. Tulsans despise that. On the flipside, OKCitians have envied Tulsa especially during the bust years and years after when it seemed like Tulsa was really moving forward while OKC was stagnant or in decline. It will take some time for those mindsets to completely change.

[bchris02]

Rover-
I realize this is an OKC message board, not St. Louis, so I don't want to dwell on this. But it is apparent to me that you didn't know where to go in St. Louis. St. Louis is miles ahead of OKC in all things urban, cultural and nightlife-oriented. There are a thousand interesting and fun places in St. Louis. I think, when I see this, of how easy it is to characterize a town when you go as a tourist. I hope the average visitor to OKC is more adept at figuring out our hometown than you obviously were in STL. I don't mean this as a put-down. You were a visitor. How is OKC marketing itself to visitors, are they able to adequately find OKC's gems? Hope so. OKC won't be a "peer" to STL for at least a couple of decades.

I tend to agree with this. St Louis is a solid Tier 2 city while OKC is, in my opinion, at the lower end of Tier 3 (moving up though each year). I have friends who live in St. Louis and they all love it. I've never been myself though.

OKC's real gems aren't easy to find. Most tourists aren't going to be able to find the Plaza district, the Paseo, or even Midtown unless they've done their research before. I imagine St. Louis has tenfold the amount of vibrant neighborhoods given its prestige and history.

This is my own ranking of tier 3 cities, all which would be peers to OKC.

1. New Orleans
2. Hartford, CT
3. Salt Lake City
4. Richmond
5. Louisville
6. Buffalo
7. Memphis
8. Rochester
9. Jacksonville
10. Birmingham
11. Oklahoma City
12. Omaha
13. Albuquerque
14. Tulsa
15. Tuscon

[Rover]

Rover-
I realize this is an OKC message board, not St. Louis, so I don't want to dwell on this. But it is apparent to me that you didn't know where to go in St. Louis. St. Louis is miles ahead of OKC in all things urban, cultural and nightlife-oriented. There are a thousand interesting and fun places in St. Louis. I think, when I see this, of how easy it is to characterize a town when you go as a tourist. I hope the average visitor to OKC is more adept at figuring out our hometown than you obviously were in STL. I don't mean this as a put-down. You were a visitor. How is OKC marketing itself to visitors, are they able to adequately find OKC's gems? Hope so. OKC won't be a "peer" to STL for at least a couple of decades.

Sure, as an ignorant visitor I couldn't really see that the rows of boarded up and dilapidated buildings throughout downtown were actually vibrant cool hangouts. Or that the car traffic downtown was horrible and that pedestrian activity was light except from the ballpark to the surface parking lots.

Every city has good neighborhoods if you know where to look.

By the way, I have lived in St. Louis and done much business there, including the Weston across from the stadium. Am familiar with downtown. And, I think KC is twice the city that St. Louis is.

[stlokc]

Rover-This will be my last reply because seriously, the "inside baseball" of STL does not matter (nor should it) to the OKC people on this board.
I know that you lived in STL, and, OK, you've stayed at the Westin. Fine. Surely as a former resident, you're familiar with Soulard and it's dozens of bars reminiscent of New Orleans. I'm going to assume you know about Lafayette Square and South Grand. I'm going to assume you've forgotten about the 20 or 30 square blocks of the Central West End, which are more urban and more vibrant than anything between here and the west coast. Uptown Dallas is a new-age theme park with zero character by comparison. You're not stupid, so for your sake, I'm just going to assume that you've momentarily forgotten about the Hill or the University City Loop. And, you haven't lived here in a while so you're probably unaware of Washington Avenue which happens to be in the central business district (although not in the parking lots surrounding Busch). Midtown OKC might be as cool as Wash Ave in 10 or 20 years. Clayton (OK, an edge city, but intensely urban and New York-sophisticated). There are parts of the CBD that are struggling, there are a few boarded-up buildings. OK. I grant you. But if you are going to take a few blocks of the CBD as your touchstone, I'll just tip my hat and move on. Back to OKC and a topic that interests the readers of this website.

[Rover]

Love the condescending mode. Glad you love you some St. Louis.

Btw, didn't say I stayed at the Westin....I was involved in its reconstruction. Anyway, I am not as giggly about the city.

Oh, and this thread is about peer citiies..oops, guess you forgot. So I'll just tip my hat...