OKC vs Peer Cities

[G.Walker]

In regards to economic development, I think the city that is just behind OKC is Omaha, the city right with us is Louisville, and city just ahead of us is Nashville.

[G.Walker]

Steve mentioned yesterday in his chat that OKC lost out on new company headquarters to Nashville, due to the lack of direct flights, I wonder if this was the company?

Aramark to create 1,000 jobs with Nashville business services center - Nashville Business Journal

[bradh]

Not to sound like a snob, because i'll take any business growth, but that doesn't sound like 1000 skilled or degreed positions.

[bchris02]

I think with the new WSKY lounge in Deep Deuce and the announcement of the new Fassler Hall, Dust Bowl, and 80s bar, the gap between OKC and similar sized cities, at least in terms of nightlife, is really starting to close. This, once complete, will almost wipe out any edge Tulsa may have had in this area. The Waffle Champion, if it ever goes 24 hours, will satisfy the need for a trendy 24-hour diner in OKC. Even if it doesn't, its still an awesome place. OKC still needs a music venue though. If only the Tower Theater actually gets renovated. I am not holding my breath on that.

I think the retail market still has a ways to go to catch up with other cities our size, but I now have a lot of hope in that area due to the recent rumors about Costco and H&M. I think within the next five years there will be a lot of changes in this area. I even have hope when it comes to grocery stores, thanks to the two potential Reasor's locations in Edmond.

One thing I wish we would see in OKC is a real theme park. Kentucky Kingdom is currently being revamped and will reopen in Louisville. If Louisville can support a park, I have no idea why OKC couldn't. This is an area where OKC being a very family-oriented city should help.

[bluedogok]

We just got our first H&M in Denver in late 2011.

The former Six Flags in Louisville looked in bad shape last May when I was there, we stayed right by it.

[CaptDave]

We just got our first H&M in Denver in late 2011.

The former Six Flags in Louisville looked in bad shape last May when I was there, we stayed right by it.

Yeah that place has been in rough shape for a while. It was not looking good in 2009-2010 when I was at Knox.

[PhiAlpha]

I think with the new WSKY lounge in Deep Deuce and the announcement of the new Fassler Hall, Dust Bowl, and 80s bar, the gap between OKC and similar sized cities, at least in terms of nightlife, is really starting to close. This, once complete, will almost wipe out any edge Tulsa may have had in this area. The Waffle Champion, if it ever goes 24 hours, will satisfy the need for a trendy 24-hour diner in OKC. Even if it doesn't, its still an awesome place. OKC still needs a music venue though. If only the Tower Theater actually gets renovated. I am not holding my breath on that.

I think the retail market still has a ways to go to catch up with other cities our size, but I now have a lot of hope in that area due to the recent rumors about Costco and H&M. I think within the next five years there will be a lot of changes in this area. I even have hope when it comes to grocery stores, thanks to the two potential Reasor's locations in Edmond.

One thing I wish we would see in OKC is a real theme park. Kentucky Kingdom is currently being revamped and will reopen in Louisville. If Louisville can support a park, I have no idea why OKC couldn't. This is an area where OKC being a very family-oriented city should help.

I think an expanded frontier city would certainly be viable and could get close to that.

[bchris02]

I think an expanded frontier city would certainly be viable and could get close to that.

I agree. All Frontier City really needs is two or three high-profile roller coasters. It wouldn't take much of an expansion to make it a viable park.

[Bellaboo]

Steve mentioned yesterday in his chat that OKC lost out on new company headquarters to Nashville, due to the lack of direct flights, I wonder if this was the company?

Aramark to create 1,000 jobs with Nashville business services center - Nashville Business Journal

You read that article and they are already well grounded in Tennessee. Probably another case of a business pitting cities against each other to get the best incentives.

[Edgar]

I've not been to Kansas City in many years (last time was in 1991 or so), but when I was there my impression was that it was pretty darned cool, much more metropolitan than Okc and a place in which I'd be happy to live. As for the others mentioned in the op-ed piece (Denver, Fort Worth, Indianapolis, Memphis, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Oklahoma City, Omaha, St. Louis and Tulsa) other than Tulsa and Ft. Worth, it's been longer still since I was in them. So I'd be hard pressed to make present day comparisons, except for Ft. Worth and Tulsa, and, even then, only as compared to Okc and not to Kansas City.

Even with the excellent progress that Okc has made and is making, and just basing this comparison on distant memories of most of those cities and recent ones of Tulsa and Ft. Worth, and as much as I like my town, and just from gut reaction and nothing scientific, I'd have to rate Okc vs.the others, head to head, as follows:

Denver & Minneapolis: Denver and Minneapolis win hands down. Not only are they larger, they have (at least, had) much better public transportation, cultural attractions, natural beauty, and downtown districts. I wouldn't say that Okc is one of their peers, at least, not yet. Today, we are not in their class.

Kansas City: I'd give Kansas City the nod largely because it hasn't chosen to destroy its downtown history like Okc did. When in downtown Kansas City, I had the sense of being in a very established city with deep roots and ties to its past, something that Okc, aside from a few buildings, can no longer lay much of a claim to. As Bob Berry Sr. used to say when calling OU football games and by analogy, Okc lost that potential as the result of "self-tackle-ization" with the Pei Plan. However, I do see Kansas City as a peer city with Okc.

Milwaukee & Omaha: I don't have sufficient impressions about either city to offer any opinions.

Memphis & Indianapolis: Okc is probably a peer city with both. Memphis is rich in history and culture but the impression that I have is that it has allowed its core to deteriorate rather badly. I never thought that highly of Indianapolis, it striking me as pedestrian, mediocre, and uninteresting (and much the same complaint could be directed to Okc after the Pei Plan and before MAPS 1). I give Okc the nod with both of these guys.

Ft. Worth: Many see Ft. Worth as being much like Okc, and I see Ft. Worth as a peer city. But Ft. Worth's old downtown hasn't been significantly destroyed but combines its old stuff with a vibrant amount of public and private downtown investment, not to mention its renowned cultural attractions, e.g, art and natural history museums. Plus, one can get on Dart and be in downtown Dallas in a flash, or regular train with ties to many areas around the country. Okc's train service begins and ends with daily round-trip schedules to Ft. Worth, and we are lucky to have that. My nod goes to Ft. Worth.

Tulsa & St. Louis: Probably I'd call both peer cities. When I was last in St. Louis, probably 40 or so years ago, I was struck by (what seemed to me) to be vast areas of downtown and near-downtown decay. Maybe that has changed, or maybe I was mistaken. But it's not a place I'd presently choose to live. I've never been jealous of St. Louis. But, back in the day, I was jealous of Tulsa with its natural beauty, rolling hills, skyline, riverfront, shopping, and cultural things. But, something went wrong in Tulsa, perhaps around the same time that things started going right in Okc with MAPS 1. I don't pretend to understand to know what happened in Tulsa ... yes, I understand it suffered a series of blows from exiting energy companies ... but Tulsa can't seem to come and get it together to do what is needed to right the ship. Okc gets my nod with both.

My above useless opinions aside, perhaps the most notable item in the op-ed piece, as far as we are concerned, is that Kansas City today deems Oklahoma City to be its "peer." To me, such an admission is pretty remarkable, and it is certainly a testament to the forward-thinking public-private approach that Okc has embraced, beginning with MAPS1. I know that it's corny, but what comes to mind is, "If you build it, they will come."

Have to disagree about Tulsa Doug. Went to the Steely Dan show at the Brady Theater Wed eve. The joint was hopping. There was obviously a show happening at Cains as well. The town is a music hub. Restaurants busy, a new Mediterranian place, McNellies packed as usual. Looked look swank new housing downtown. Drillers' game well attended at the new park. Brady district a vibrant artistic place. Tulsa got started later but looks like they're on a good path. they've had bad luck with energy companies moving and failed incentive plans, but is it really fair to compare OKC and Tulsa on this metric when 5 of the top 6 employers in the OKC metro and state and federal jobs- oh the irony.

[bchris02]

Have to disagree about Tulsa Doug. Went to the Steely Dan show at the Brady Theater Wed eve. The joint was hopping. There was obviously a show happening at Cains as well. The town is a music hub. Restaurants busy, a new Mediterranian place, McNellies packed as usual. Looked look swank new housing downtown. Drillers' game well attended at the new park. Brady district a vibrant artistic place. Tulsa got started later but looks like they're on a good path. they've had bad luck with energy companies moving and failed incentive plans, but is it really fair to compare OKC and Tulsa on this metric when 5 of the top 6 employers in the OKC metro and state and federal jobs- oh the irony.

I agree. Right now Tulsa still has the upper hand in a few key areas, vibrant urban districts being one of them. I would be willing to bet the situation will be different two years from now. Things are starting to happen that will create the type of vibrant urban districts here similar to what they have in Tulsa. I really do hope it all unfolds as planned. While Tulsa is still ahead in some areas, OKC however is improving at a much faster rate. Even though Tulsa also had a bust, I dont think things were ever as bleak there as they were in OKC in the 1980s. One area I don't think OKC will ever be able to compete with Tulsa in is their world class museums.

[progressiveboy]

I agree. Right now Tulsa still has the upper hand in a few key areas, vibrant urban districts being one of them. I would be willing to bet the situation will be different two years from now. Things are starting to happen that will create the type of vibrant urban districts here similar to what they have in Tulsa. I really do hope it all unfolds as planned. While Tulsa is still ahead in some areas, OKC however is improving at a much faster rate. Even though Tulsa also had a bust, I dont think things were ever as bleak there as they were in OKC in the 1980s. One area I don't think OKC will ever be able to compete with Tulsa in is their world class museums.

Oh gosh. Another Tulsa vs OKC rivalrly, Lol. Looking at it from an objective view, Tulsa has OKC beat in it's topography and hills, more greener. However, I feel the buck stops here. First OKC is way more metropolitan than Tulsa, OKC is the states Government hub and the states financial hub. OKC river has hosted world class venues in rowing, kayaking home to the US Olympic Office for these respected sports. What has Tulsa hosted on their river?? Crickets, lol. World class boathouses, new zip line, soon to be whitewater course, how about Tulsa? Not mention more jobs, cultural amenities (World class Armstrong Auditorium), Dale Chihuly at the OKC MOA. I really feel that OKC has a much brighter future. Tulsa just stays the same. I have been to Brookside and Midtown Tulsa, it is nice but nothing super special.

[Pete]

One area I don't think OKC will ever be able to compete with Tulsa in is their world class museums.

OKC is very under-appreciated in this area:

National Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum
Oklahoma History Center
Oklahoma City Museum of Art
Science Museum Oklahoma
Oklahoma City National Memorial & Museum
Oklahoma Heritage Museum
Fred Jones Museum of Art (OU)
Sam Noble Oklahoma Museum of Natural History (OU)

Plus, a whole host of others:
National Softball Hall of Fame
45th Infantry Division
American Banjo Museum
Harn Homestead
Oklahoma Railway Museum
Overholser Mansion
Oklahoma Contemporary

Coming soon:
American Indian Museum & Cultural Center


I know Tulsa has the Philbrook & Gilcrease, but Oklahoma City has plenty to offer in terms of museums.

Right now, the National Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum and Fred Jones both have world class collections. The American Indian Museum will also be world class when complete.


And I would add that the OKC Zoo is by far the biggest attraction in the state, although it's in a slightly different category. It's a bigger asset and far more people make use of it than any museum.

[Bellaboo]

I agree. Right now Tulsa still has the upper hand in a few key areas, vibrant urban districts being one of them. I would be willing to bet the situation will be different two years from now. Things are starting to happen that will create the type of vibrant urban districts here similar to what they have in Tulsa. I really do hope it all unfolds as planned. While Tulsa is still ahead in some areas, OKC however is improving at a much faster rate. Even though Tulsa also had a bust, I dont think things were ever as bleak there as they were in OKC in the 1980s. One area I don't think OKC will ever be able to compete with Tulsa in is their world class museums.

I thought that one time long ago too, until the lady on the plane next to me straightened me out about how the OKC museums had a lot more going for them than some of Tulsa's do. She was a board member of some Arts council and I believe a director to the Cowboy HOF......don't really remember too well, I've been to the Gilcrease and the Philbrook in Tulsa, and the only thing I recognized was about 1/2 dozen old Masters religious paintings at the Philbrook from the 11th and 12th century that was superior. The OKC Museum of Art Chihuly Collection beats anything else in Tulsa hands down...... now the music scene, you'd have to pay me to go, but as for the Thunder, I pay thousands a year for the entertainment. Depends on the interest I guess. Plus I get over 40 games...try going to over 40 concerts a year..that'd be tough.

Also, the Sam Noble Museum of Natural History in Norman is world class in it's own right.

[Pete]

Have to disagree about Tulsa Doug. Went to the Steely Dan show at the Brady Theater Wed eve. The joint was hopping. There was obviously a show happening at Cains as well. The town is a music hub. Restaurants busy, a new Mediterranian place, McNellies packed as usual. Looked look swank new housing downtown. Drillers' game well attended at the new park. Brady district a vibrant artistic place. Tulsa got started later but looks like they're on a good path. they've had bad luck with energy companies moving and failed incentive plans, but is it really fair to compare OKC and Tulsa on this metric when 5 of the top 6 employers in the OKC metro and state and federal jobs- oh the irony.

On any given night, Bricktown has many times the number of people out and about than anywhere in Tulsa. Do you realize Bricktown has FIFTY bars, restaurants and clubs??? Plus a AAA baseball stadium, bowling, a huge movie theater, canal rides, live music, etc., etc. And Bricktown has been thriving for 20 years.

Why this is always overlooked when comparing OKC to other cities is simply baffling.


Midtown in OKC will soon be bigger and better than anything in Tulsa; Deep Deuce is getting close and the Plaza District now has three cool places.

Not taking anything away from Tulsa but people that live in OKC too often overlook what we already have and don't seem to comprehend what is coming.

[Plutonic Panda]

OKC is very under-appreciated in this area:

National Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum
Oklahoma History Center
Oklahoma City Museum of Art
Science Museum Oklahoma
Oklahoma City National Memorial & Museum
Oklahoma Heritage Museum
Fred Jones Museum of Art (OU)
Sam Noble Oklahoma Museum of Natural History (OU)

Plus, a whole host of others:
National Softball Hall of Fame
45th Infantry Division
American Banjo Museum
Harn Homestead
Oklahoma Railway Museum
Overholser Mansion
Oklahoma Contemporary

Coming soon:
American Indian Museum & Cultural Center


I know Tulsa has the Philbrook & Gilcrease, but Oklahoma City has plenty to offer in terms of museums.

Right now, the National Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum and Fred Jones both have world class collections. The American Indian Museum will also be world class when complete.


And I would add that the OKC Zoo is by far the biggest attraction in the state, although it's in a slightly different category. It's a bigger asset and far more people make use of it than any museum.

Pete, unfortunately I have to say the Science museum sucks now. It used to be cool, but the whole place is in disrepair. I would love to see the place renovated and turned into an aviation museum! They should build a new science museum-like the one in Dallas-built along I-40 somewhere in the C2S area or perhaps Bricktown. Maybe even East of Bricktown across I235 would be a great thing to get that area going.

[Pete]

The Science Museum will be investing $30 million in upgrades over the next five years.

$30 mil is a massive amount and you will soon see major improvements.

[bchris02]

On any given night, Bricktown has many times the number of people out and about than anywhere in Tulsa. And Bricktown has been thriving for 20 years.

Why this is always overlooked when comparing OKC to other cities is simply baffling.


Midtown in OKC will soon be bigger and better than anything in Tulsa; Deep Deuce is getting close and the Plaza District now has three cool places.

Not taking anything away from Tulsa but people that live in OKC too often overlook what we already have and don't seem to comprehend what is coming.

I agree about Midtown. After Fassler Hall/Dust Bowl will be huge for the area and I expect it to simply snowball after that.

As for Bricktown, I think the urban design disaster that Lower Bricktown turned into has somewhat tarnished the district's reputation with urbanists like many on this site. It also doesn't offer much for the hipster/artsy/intellectual crowd that prefers districts like the Plaza or Paseo Districts in OKC or Brady/Blue Dome in Tulsa. I think Bricktown is awesome though for what it does offer and I think things are headed in the right direction for it, with more attempts to promote the canal.

[bchris02]

The Science Museum will be investing $30 million in upgrades over the next five years.

$30 mil is a massive amount and you will soon see major improvements.

This is good news. With that much investment, I am hoping it becomes top notch. When I lived here back in the 90s and it was the OmniPlex I thought it was pretty cool. I went back last year and couldn't believe the disrepair.

I would really like to see it moved downtown.

[Plutonic Panda]

The Science Museum will be investing $30 million in upgrades over the next five years.

$30 mil is a massive amount and you will soon see major improvements.

I really hope so. That is great news!!! I went a few months ago and a huge portion of the upper floors were decorated with this weird and cheap cardboard, the equipment and exhibits were not in good shape and the gardens were really bad with it looking like it was almost abandoned. A huge section where they had old planes and what not, was empty. Really sad to see.

I would prefer a new one to be built, but that won't happen if they are investing that kind of money into this. None the less, that is great news still and I never even knew. Any idea when we'll see the first improvements start???

[Pete]

Bricktown proper is simply stellar. If you have any doubt about that, take someone from out of town down there and witness their envious reaction.

There are always tons of people out and about, plenty of restaurants of all types, a bunch of hopping clubs, several live music venues, etc.


Qualifying districts by the type of people it appeals to is a completely different and subjective discussion.

But if we are going to compare urban districts between cities, I'll stack Bricktown up against anything from any city even close to the size of OKC.


And BTW, is there another city the size of OKC with as many large-scale residential developments (Level, Mosiac, Maywood Apartments, 4th Street, Metropolitan, East Bricktown, The Hill, The Edge, etc.) underway or about ready to start downtown? Or the number of downtown hotels?


People tend to over value other cities because it's new to them; and at the same time under value the city in which they live. It's why people in OKC completely dismiss and often don't even think about Bricktown.

[Bellaboo]

ACM is also Big in Bricktown..........ACM @ Bricktown is still in it's infancy, let's watch it grow up.

Another thing I've noticed, that on Friday evenings in Bricktown during OU home football games, which most opposing teams with Hotel in downtown OKC, there is always a big crowd in from out of state. I doubt Tulsa gets that.

[Pete]

ACM is also Big in Bricktown..........ACM @ Bricktown is still in it's infancy, let's watch it grow up.

Another thing I've noticed, that on Friday evenings in Bricktown during OU home football games, which most opposing teams with Hotel in downtown OKC, there is always a big crowd in from out of state. I doubt Tulsa gets that.

Yes, both great points. Last time I was in for a game against Texas Tech, they had their cheerleaders and small pep band going from restaurant to restaurant. It was a lot of fun.


And remember, Bricktown is getting ready to add 3 or maybe even 5 hotels plus a ton of housing and other things.

Also, with all the big new residential developments just across the tracks in Deep Deuce, this district is only going to get livelier.

[Bellaboo]

Edgar - I hope your goal in life is not to stir the pot as a teenager....cause you're trying awful hard with mis facts and inuendo. LOL

[Bellaboo]

Yes, both great points. Last time I was in for a game against Texas Tech, they had their cheerleaders and small pep band going from restaurant to restaurant. It was a lot of fun.


And remember, Bricktown is getting ready to add 3 or maybe even 5 hotels plus a ton of housing and other things.

Also, with all the big new residential developments just across the tracks in Deep Deuce, this district is only going to get livelier.

I remember years ago, Oregon was staying at the Renaissance, I sat in a club with several of their fans who were wearing 'Ted Bundy was a Husky' T-shirts...

And we also have one of the top 2 basketball players in the world moving to DD also.