Highway 69/75 working to become interstate

[Plutonic Panda]

Thrived? Name one.

The town where I live, does Edmond work for you?

Need me to be more specific, tell me. Many interstates were built to connect to large cities and I know there were small towns that directly benefited from the interstate system. If you want proof, I'll do some research when I get a chance.

[LakeEffect]

The town where I live, does Edmond work for you?

Need me to be more specific, tell me. Many interstates were built to connect to large cities and I know there were small towns that directly benefited from the interstate system. If you want proof, I'll do some research when I get a chance.

Please do. Edmond did not develop due to interstates. It developed due to its proximity to OKC. We are talking about small towns NOT in proximity to large urban areas.

[Plutonic Panda]

Please do. Edmond did not develop due to interstates. It developed due to its proximity to OKC. We are talking about small towns NOT in proximity to large urban areas.

Ah, yes because OKC is a huge urban area, even after it's urban core was destroyed, Edmond still grew and thrived. I'll do a little research later.

[venture]

ODOT can keep them funded through the taxes people already pay. Interstates do NOT need to be tolled. If this highway were to have a 90MPH speed limit, then I will definitely warm up to the idea of it being tolled. I don't mind seeing some intercity highways being tolled either, but not interstates.

Many already hit on this...funding is not there for more interstates. That is why major projects like 235/44 and 35/240 are pushed out over many many years.

People using the Turner Turnpike will be paying for the up keep, not anybody down there.

Probably true since I would imagine traffic would be fairly low considering the interstate bypasses Tulsa to east.

major construction projects are dragged out because ODOT can't borrow money for road construction. The revenue will increase as the local economy there strengthens from having an interstate going through it. Nearly Every major city has an interstate either running through it or right next to it.

Interesting. So we should continue raising the debt to build more roads without worrying about actually having the cash to pay for it? So exactly when should we start worrying about being fiscally responsible? I think back to Ohio's GOP governor who recently borrowed against the state's turnpike, which has been profitable and self sufficient for years, to get a couple billion dollars to fund projects no where near it. I'm having a hard time understanding exactly where this love for increasing debt by the billions is coming from from so-called conservatives.

The town where I live, does Edmond work for you?

Need me to be more specific, tell me. Many interstates were built to connect to large cities and I know there were small towns that directly benefited from the interstate system. If you want proof, I'll do some research when I get a chance.

Oh bless your heart. Edmond grew because of being in a major metro area. You mentioned in your next post that they still grew when OKC weakened...that's pretty much the history of every suburb in this country. I would definitely advise on doing more research. Some of the comments you have been making lately really make no sense and are night and day to the ones you use to make. Of course it is also curious on the individual who seems to like every one of your nonsensical posts and where their beliefs lie. I'll chalk this up to just getting bad or biased information from some people that is clouding your better judgement.

[Just the facts]

Worth a read

http://www.uvm.edu/landscape/learn/i...te_system.html

[bradh]

Thrived? Name one.

Even though it's not an interstate, but Kendleton, TX did...for a while

The Biggest Little Speed Trap in Texas - CNN iReport

The most notorious is Kendleton, a town of 500 southwest of Houston that operated a speed trap on U.S. 59 for more than 20 years. In a series of audits, the comptroller's office found the town failed to pay more than $1.6 million in excess highway fines through the 1990s. Kendleton subsequently declared bankruptcy and disbanded its police force.

[venture]

Even though it's not an interstate, but Kendleton, TX did...for a while

The Biggest Little Speed Trap in Texas - CNN iReport

I think you misread their post on what they mean by thrived. The way I took it was how a town has thrived because of the interstate itself, not because of speed trap revenue. The example given by PluPan was Edmond as thriving because of an interstate. So using that context, your response is a little off.

[Just the facts]

One of the things the interstate system did was move commerce from the existing Main St to the off ramps, usually in the form of self-serve gas stations, fast food restaurants, and budget hotels, and lately, Walmart and car lots, and left to rot were the areas the commerce moved from. That is not 'thriving' in my book.

[bradh]

I think you misread their post on what they mean by thrived. The way I took it was how a town has thrived because of the interstate itself, not because of speed trap revenue. The example given by PluPan was Edmond as thriving because of an interstate. So using that context, your response is a little off.

I did, but some people thrived in Kendleton (the cops)

[LakeEffect]

I did, but some people thrived in Kendleton (the cops)

And the taxpayers, a bit.

If we had built the interstate system to always begin and end outside of cities, things may have been different. As soon as we started running them through and/or around cities, small towns began to fail.

[Plutonic Panda]

Many already hit on this...funding is not there for more interstates. That is why major projects like 235/44 and 35/240 are pushed out over many many years.



Probably true since I would imagine traffic would be fairly low considering the interstate bypasses Tulsa to east.



Interesting. So we should continue raising the debt to build more roads without worrying about actually having the cash to pay for it? So exactly when should we start worrying about being fiscally responsible? I think back to Ohio's GOP governor who recently borrowed against the state's turnpike, which has been profitable and self sufficient for years, to get a couple billion dollars to fund projects no where near it. I'm having a hard time understanding exactly where this love for increasing debt by the billions is coming from from so-called conservatives.



Oh bless your heart. Edmond grew because of being in a major metro area. You mentioned in your next post that they still grew when OKC weakened...that's pretty much the history of every suburb in this country. I would definitely advise on doing more research. Some of the comments you have been making lately really make no sense and are night and day to the ones you use to make. Of course it is also curious on the individual who seems to like every one of your nonsensical posts and where their beliefs lie. I'll chalk this up to just getting bad or biased information from some people that is clouding your better judgement.

Obviously Edmond has grown with a huge help from OKC. Edmond has grown when OKC was weak and is still growing when it is strong. It doesn't matter, it continues to grow no matter what OKC is doing. I just used Edmond as a first classic example, and the interstate system has benefited Edmond.

You can't immediately fund multi billion dollar projects and the best way to do them is take a bond out, so you can build the whole thing immediately as opposed to waiting and spreading the projects out over a course of x years. Texas has the best credit rating because they pay back their loans on time, I'm sure we could do the same, as long as we don't take out more than we can handle. Tolling INTERSTATES(i only capitalize that to emphasize the word, a system of nationally connected highways that were paid by the tax payers up front, and should remain free) is not the answer.

Now, if cities want toll themselves to pay for highways that have already been paid for by taxpayer dollars, then thats fine, no problemo. I actually think a new loop is needed around Edmond and I would 100% support a toll road.

We will have the cash to pay for it, ODOT is already redoing 235/44 interchange, so obviously the money is there. The only difference is, ODOT is choosing to spread it out over 10 years as opposed to taking out a loan, just building the damn thing, improving traffic flow and potentially saving lives. and paying the money borrowed later. Yes, I know there interest to account for as well.

[Plutonic Panda]

And the taxpayers, a bit.

If we had built the interstate system to always begin and end outside of cities, things may have been different. As soon as we started running them through and/or around cities, small towns began to fail.

Let me turn the tables on you, can provide me any examples of this? Direct examples!

Again, I will provide proof later tonight or tomorrow as I am at school and can't spend a huge amount of time getting all the info I need.

Also, I assume that if interstates started and ended at major cities, you would want a law prohibiting building along them, am I right? If not, correct me. So would we also remove interstates as the city grew? What about truckers and cross country drivers that didn't want to stop in a particular city, would we have bypasses for every single city? Seems like that would be more expensive to have bypasses around every city with an interstate running through it and if we didn't build bypasses, well, what about the impact of delayed freight on the trucks?

[Plutonic Panda]

I think you misread their post on what they mean by thrived. The way I took it was how a town has thrived because of the interstate itself, not because of speed trap revenue. The example given by PluPan was Edmond as thriving because of an interstate. So using that context, your response is a little off.

Are you suggesting that I was suggesting the towns were thriving because of a piece of concrete? So, if I understand that right, that is the same thing as saying, the streetcar won't benefit anything because what can some pieces of metal do? The interstates move billions possibly even trillions of dollars of commerce a year, it is what the interstates do! The move things, at peoples own comfort and control. I prefer to drive a car to California as opposed to riding a HSR, and I want nice highways to do it on. Just like people that want nice fast trains to move around on, I support HSR and Mass Transit.

I also heavily support widening and expanding highways when it's due, and it seems like there are a few people round these parts who don't want anything to do with highways at all and want every building right up against the street. I know that isn't entirely accurate, but man it sure seems like a hidden agenda is prevalent every now and then. I guess we just have to fundamentally disagree with the idea of tolling interstates, because I really think that is scam. The damn things have already been paid for and should be used by everyone, if they choose.

You can bypass intercity highways with ease and not much time lost, depending on traffic. Traveling from state to state, that's a different story.

[Plutonic Panda]

Worth a read

http://www.uvm.edu/landscape/learn/i...te_system.html

I'll check it out later.

[Just the facts]

Let me turn the tables on you, can provide me any examples of this? Direct examples!

Also, I assume that if interstates started and ended at major cities, you would want a law prohibiting building along them, am I right?

The interstate system as it was originally conceived was designed to stop well outside a city and take on the character of an Avenue the rest of the way into town, and the town would not be allowed to grow up around the exit ramps. The concept was know as the 'Townless Highway and Highwayless Town'. Freeways were implemented that way widely in Europe and in the UK to this day. Pick any motorway in the UK and they almost never go through a town and there are few exit ramps, and the ones they have are usually in rural areas well outside of town.

[Plutonic Panda]

The interstate system as it was originally conceived was designed to stop well outside a city and take on the character of an Avenue the rest of the way into town, and the town would not be allowed to grow up around the exit ramps. The concept was know as the 'Townless Highway and Highwayless Town'. Freeways were implemented that way widely in Europe and in the UK to this day.

That's cool and all. If a town wants to be that way, then they could create a spur or something. How has that helped Europe, and even more so, Europe is not in good shape, at all! So using them as an example seems a bit off. I am for freedom of what people want, and if they want the top option on your photo, then great, I would probably even opt for that. But, if they want the lower town, then people should be able to live that way. I also think it would be great if we removed a bunch of entries and exits on highways, making them more limited access. I just flat out disagree with the notion of tolling interstates.

How about this, I-40, I-35, I-44, and I know there are about 5 others, I don't think should be tolled. Now, if a tollway were to be built across multiple states with very high speed limits, then I would be all game for one.

[Just the facts]

http://www.okctalk.com/transportatio...nterstate.html

[Plutonic Panda]

http://www.okctalk.com/transportatio...nterstate.html

Sorry, I didn't realize how far I had gotten off topic.

[bradh]

that graphic displays what you see in many small towns along interstates as "Business Routes" but even still, development springs up along the main interstate and still takes away from the old downtown in some cases.

[venture]

You can't immediately fund multi billion dollar projects and the best way to do them is take a bond out, so you can build the whole thing immediately as opposed to waiting and spreading the projects out over a course of x years.

So exactly how much debt should we take on? When does it stop? Toll roads give an option to pay as you go essentially, but thats a top for the other thread. Projects are already being spread out over many years because of funding limitations. I-35 has been a great example of that as it has been going on for well over 15 years - which I don't expect you to remember much of that.

Texas has the best credit rating because they pay back their loans on time, I'm sure we could do the same, as long as we don't take out more than we can handle.

Would you like to use a lifeline on that statement? You make a lot of claims about how great Texas is (consider moving?) but you don't back up your claims. Texas does not have the best credit rating according to S&P. Texas as an AA+ raiting, the same as Oklahoma. Who has a better, AAA, credit rating? Alaska, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Iowa, Maryland, Missouri, Nebraska, North Carolina, Utah, Virginia, and Wyoming. No Texas.

Tolling INTERSTATES(i only capitalize that to emphasize the word, a system of nationally connected highways that were paid by the tax payers up front, and should remain free) is not the answer.

I think we all know what the interstates are, but that's for the elementary definition. Tolling interstates has been around since the Federal Aid Highway Act of 1956. What did this law also do? It removed federal aid from construction costs for the toll roads. Of course that changed and now federal funds can be used for toll roads. Of course at this point we can't go back and toll existing interstates without congressional approval, but anything new is fair game. The Fed doesn't have the money to pay for the roads we have now, so that makes tolling the next logical funding method. Of course we could follow your plan to just keep racking up Debt, but at some point the investors are going to want their money - in which case more debt will be taken on to pay down other debt.

Now, if cities want toll themselves to pay for highways that have already been paid for by taxpayer dollars, then thats fine, no problemo. I actually think a new loop is needed around Edmond and I would 100% support a toll road.

We are getting too far off course at this point, but I just have to scratch my head at the logic being used to propose yet another loop through Edmond.

We will have the cash to pay for it, ODOT is already redoing 235/44 interchange, so obviously the money is there. The only difference is, ODOT is choosing to spread it out over 10 years as opposed to taking out a loan, just building the damn thing, improving traffic flow and potentially saving lives. and paying the money borrowed later. Yes, I know there interest to account for as well.

So...we have the cash to pay for it...but don't have the cash in reality for it, hence the part of spreading the project out over 10 years. I can't possibly be the only one seeing the logical fallacies in your argument on this.

[Bunty]

that graphic displays what you see in many small towns along interstates as "Business Routes" but even still, development springs up along the main interstate and still takes away from the old downtown in some cases.

Wal-Mart is was what mainly takes away from the downtown. If the town is declining in population, together with an entrepreneurial spirit on Main St. that is lacking and not encouraged in some way, that's what happens.

[Bunty]

And the taxpayers, a bit.

If we had built the interstate system to always begin and end outside of cities, things may have been different. As soon as we started running them through and/or around cities, small towns began to fail.

Can you cite an Oklahoma town or two as an example? I don't think you can cite Perry. It was already a stagnant town when Interstate 35 came by it and now a half century later is still stagnant and not failing. I think how a local town's economy is doing is a bigger factor to take into consideration than an Interstate highway.

[mugofbeer]

To see why many small towns fail, one must look at many factors such as why the town began in the first place. If a town boomed nearly overnight due to some natural resource, it is more likely to fail overnight. Most small towns arose because farmers needed supplies and markets close enough to their farms to be able to ride a horse to town and back in a day. With the cars of today, you don't need towns placed nearly as close together so many small towns are doomed---and it has nothing to do with Wal Mart. Interstates simply exacerbate this situation. However, some towns thrive with interstates such as Ardmore, Elk City, Gainsville, because they have adapted and sold themselves as lower cost alternatives to large cities. This is the same reason OK doesn't need 77 counties or 300 ( or somesuch number) of school districts. There is simply a natural progression that muzt be accepted.....its evolution.

[BG918]

This has been discussed before. With increasing traffic and the general northward growth of DFW it seems to be gaining more traction. This new interstate could be an extension of I-45, and could eventually connect Tulsa to Dallas.

From Wikipedia:
In the early 1990s, some portions of US-75 in Oklahoma were slated to become part of the Interstate Highway System. The 1991 Intermodal Surface Transportation Efficiency Act (ISTEA) states that "upon the request of the Oklahoma State highway agency, the Secretary shall designate the portion of United States Route 69 from the Oklahoma-Texas State line to Checotah in the State of Oklahoma as a part of the Interstate System."[3] This would have created an Interstate route from Interstate 40 south to the Texas line, including the portion of US-75 co-signed with US-69 south of Atoka. The legislation was unclear whether the route would enter Texas to connect with or become an extension of Interstate 45. A current plan is to construct a new segment of the Oklahoma Turnpike along the US-69 corridor to bring it to corridor standards.

[KayneMo]

US 75 in planning phase to become six lanes from Collin County to the Red River. Any significant work on US 75 isn't anticipated to start until 2019.

Today's Grayson County leaders discuss future growth of US 75