What happened to NW OKC?

[Bellaboo]

It's one of many monuments to Right-to-Work's success in Oklahoma. The empty tire plant about half a mile south of it is another one. That law sure didn't work out as advertised...

This was about the time that tires were made in Asia way less expensive than here, the same happend to the textile industry just a decade before. Right to work had little effect on either.

[NWOKCGuy]

My question is: What happened here? I mean, pretty much everything north of I-40 and west of I-35 is rundown now. Does it have something to do with the downtown revitalization? Is it because everyone moved to Moore/SW OKC? What causes whole areas to decline so rapidly? Why did they build so many apartments there in the first place?

Did you mean to say west of I-44? Plenty of good neighborhoods north of I-40 between 35 and 44.

[Snowman]

Did you mean to say west of I-44? Plenty of good neighborhoods north of I-40 between 35 and 44.

The bad areas may vary from street to street, it is not usually to find a pocket of one in the other. Areas may have made a comeback too, at one time the area around the capital and medical complex had as bad a reputation as anywhere in the city. The area between i235 and i35 also has had a ton of houses demolished that are still bare land, which indicates it had some extended bad times.

[mkjeeves]

The area between i235 and i35

Not to be overly pedantic or that it matters much in the big picture, but that's not NW OKC.

[Snowman]

Not to be overly pedantic or that it matters much in the big picture, but that's not NW OKC.

I was responding to others comments

I mean, pretty much everything north of I-40 and west of I-35 is rundown now.

Did you mean to say west of I-44? Plenty of good neighborhoods north of I-40 between 35 and 44.

[mkjeeves]

I was responding to others comments

I know, as was I in part.

The real issue at hand demonstrated in this thread IMO is the acceptance of the effects of sprawl on the one hand with a half attempt to redirect public funds towards an urban center as the be all end all of the future. I get there's reasons to have a healthy core. But a properly managed city would place priority on existing established neighborhoods and infrastructure over new at distances further out. All of them. If the city does not have the means to do this, acquire blighted properties like we have along 10th street, make changes to roads and sidewalks and encourage revitalization, they need to divest themselves of some of the property they have under their management. That would not be cutting a donut out of the city and say, discarding everything from the urban core to maybe the 5 or 7 mile mark and keeping everything inside and out that's new and shiny with some particular desired demographic. It would be working on the urban core AND the donut first.

[Snowman]

discarding everything from the urban core to maybe the 7 mile mark and keeping everything inside and out that's new and shiny with some particular desired demographic.

Even just dumping the agriculture zoned land is problematic, look at budget issues with Bethany or Warr Acers for what happens to a predominantly suburban city when all the develop-able land runs out. Part of why building more urban style seems like the most realistic alternative to hitting a wall eventually.

[onthestrip]

Condemning and demolishing some of the abandoned aparment complexes would certainly help along 10th street. Other than that Im not sure what you can do or would want to do.

The outlet mall, Westgate, Francis Tuttle and expanding and/or new businesses along reno and south council might have somewhat of a positive impact in the coming years.

[NWOKCGuy]

The bad areas may vary from street to street, it is not usually to find a pocket of one in the other. Areas may have made a comeback too, at one time the area around the capital and medical complex had as bad a reputation as anywhere in the city. The area between i235 and i35 also has had a ton of houses demolished that are still bare land, which indicates it had some extended bad times.

Sorry - meant 235 not 35. The OP referenced everything west of 35. Lots of great historic neighborhoods that fall in that area.

[ShiroiHikari]

I apparently got mixed up on my directions. Sorry.

Basically, all I was trying to say is that NW 10th is depressing and that something ought to be done. Though I don't know why I even care; it's not like I live in that part of town anymore. If people that live up there are fine with it, then I suppose it's not a big deal.

[Just the facts]

urban sprawl = operation rolling ghetto. All those new great places in Edmond and Moore - check them out in 20 more years.

[progressiveboy]

Perhaps it has to do with changing demographics and a population shift no longer able to sustain. Downtown OKC is getting better all the time along with Midtown, Lincoln Blvd, East Bricktown which I call front door to OKC. The flip side being the rest of OKC is marginal with small pockets of nice neighborhoods with large pockets of blight. It's asthetic appearance needs improvement, including the sorry roads. Why do residents stand for horrendous roads? Can anyone objectively answer this?

[Plutonic Panda]

I think if the right measures are taken, a suburb can last just as long as it's "parent" cities core can. I think it all comes down to the city leaders. I don't Edmond is going downhill anytime soon, neither do I think that about Norman. I don't know too much about Moore. I think Bethany/Warr Acres area was neglected for a long time. I don't believe that just happened. Time will tell though. Not only that, but our future leaders. OKC could hit the dirt just easily as Edmond could. The best example of this was Downtown OKC not too long ago.

[Questor]

I think it's the norm in OKC, not the exception, for older neighborhoods to look extremely run down. There are definitely nice old neighborhoods, but there are a lot more that are not. I think the root cause of this is the same reason why even neighborhoods that aren't that old all too quickly look like homes aren't being maintained properly... it's also the same reason no one pours money into updating the interiors of their homes here and just let things keep on like its 1999... homes are very cheap, there's a ton of land, and home builders keep on building. There's more economic incentive to move into a brand new home every so many years than there is to stay. It means you don't see many 1,000 square foot $500k homes, but it also means that you don't see many immaculately cared for, modernized older homes like you do on the West Coast.

It also means that usually the biggest appreciation is in new home markets during the first several years the neighborhood is new... but then kind of starts to level out the older the house gets. Which keeps driving people with more money to newer neighborhoods.

Just what I've observed anyway.

[bchris02]

I think it's the norm in OKC, not the exception, for older neighborhoods to look extremely run down. There are definitely nice old neighborhoods, but there are a lot more that are not. I think the root cause of this is the same reason why even neighborhoods that aren't that old all too quickly look like homes aren't being maintained properly... it's also the same reason no one pours money into updating the interiors of their homes here and just let things keep on like its 1999... homes are very cheap, there's a ton of land, and home builders keep on building. There's more economic incentive to move into a brand new home every so many years than there is to stay. It means you don't see many 1,000 square foot $500k homes, but it also means that you don't see many immaculately cared for, modernized older homes like you do on the West Coast.

It also means that usually the biggest appreciation is in new home markets during the first several years the neighborhood is new... but then kind of starts to level out the older the house gets. Which keeps driving people with more money to newer neighborhoods.

Just what I've observed anyway.

To me, the homes in West OKC are more akin to the ones on the South side than they are to the historic, character-filled homes directly north of the urban core. They are post-war tract homes that haven't stood the test of time. I don't see them ever having the kind of historical value most pre-war homes do. That is probably why you don't see the grassroots rush to gentrify West OKC like you do the 23rd st corridor.

I think even today's homes will stand the test of time moreso than most of the homes built in the 1950-1975 era.

[adaniel]

I'll say that for someone who prefers urban living, IMO the death of suburbs is/was highly exaggerated. Lots of people simply don't care for dense urban environments. More importantly, cities' troubled urban school districts will always give families pause. Towns that offer good schools, solid (but not always cheap) real estate, a diverse tax base, some culture and arts, and at least some measure of white collar employment with simple access to other job centers will always be in demand. In this area, I can really only think of Norman, and to a lesser extent Edmond, that meet these descriptions. There are plenty of homes in both towns built in the 1960-1985 time period that look great.

Of course on the other end of the spectrum is the outposts of commuter oriented cheap housing centered around the occasional WalMart and some other big box stores. Who actually believes these places will last? They'll be abandoned once the next "it" place is discovered by the real estate industry. It frankly amazes me how people think Oklahoma is somehow insulated from these trends. So there will likely be a steady stream of crap development in the future. I drive through Moore and Yukon and think to myself, "What will this look like in 10 years?" Moore could go either way IMO if it could diversify its tax base, otherwise we'll be responding to a thread in 2023 asking What Happened to Moore.

[krisb]

To me, the homes in West OKC are more akin to the ones on the South side than they are to the historic, character-filled homes directly north of the urban core. They are post-war tract homes that haven't stood the test of time. I don't see them ever having the kind of historical value most pre-war homes do. That is probably why you don't see the grassroots rush to gentrify West OKC like you do the 23rd st corridor.

I think even today's homes will stand the test of time moreso than most of the homes built in the 1950-1975 era.

Here is another take on the value of "post-war tract homes." The "mid-century modest" neighborhoods offer an affordable piece of the American dream for working class families and young adults. These neighborhoods have real diversity as opposed to many of the gentrified neighborhoods in the urban core.

The Mid-Century Modest Manifesto ? Retro Renovation

[RadicalModerate]

point of clarification? thank you.
when someone refers to "NW OKC" (as in the title of the thread)
what geographical boundaries are [they] (the OP) referring to?
(sorry, my bad: "to which definitional geographic boundaries are [they] referring?)

perhaps a better question might be: what opportunities for improvement does NW OKC offer . . .?
or . . . what is going to happen to NW OKC!

personally, i think that the relocation of the state fairgrounds from over on eastern to where it is now had something to do with all of it. does NW OKC stop at about . . . 36th and May? . . . or is that too provincial?

dang. it's hard to know just what happened . . .

[NoOkie]

I'll say that for someone who prefers urban living, IMO the death of suburbs is/was highly exaggerated. Lots of people simply don't care for dense urban environments.

I think it's also important to recognize that the urban core doesn't have all the jobs in the city. My wife and I would commute longer if we lived in the core, with her in Edmond and myself working in NW OKC. It just makes more sense for us to live near Hefner. Our other option would really be SE Edmond. While 10th has turned into a Ghetto, along with 122nd&Penn and some other pockets(MacArthur and Britton? I forget where the ****ty apartments are over there) a good chunk of suburban NW OKC is still bland and unremarkably decent.

Were I single, and without dogs, I'd probably want to live in the core. Dogs rule out the condos and apartments as I'd rather leave mine in the backyard when weather permits than crate or risk them destroying the house. When I lived in Douglas/Edgemere, it was nice and Western was close by, but the age of the house caused issues and the one bathroom is a huge pain in the ass. Midtown seems to have the same 50's and earlier designs, so I'm assuming one bathroom and small rooms.

I live in suburbia as it minimizes the commute more than anything, but with our city it doesn't put me out of reach. It's only 15 minutes to the core if I want to do something there, and only 10 minutes from the big box retail area if I want mindless consumption. While I would certainly like more ped/bike infrastructure and some neat restaurants and shops to walk to, I'd rather they come to me than the other way around.

[Just the facts]

You guys are over thinking this. The main problem is that we can't afford to maintain suburbia. I can get a loan for a BMW 750 but if I can't afford the $250 oil change every 3,000 miles how long is it going to look nice? Somewhere I have a presentation from StrongTowns that explains why suburbia can't be maintained and will always fall into disrepair. When I find it I will post it.

Found it.

[mkjeeves]

Here is another take on the value of "post-war tract homes." The "mid-century modest" neighborhoods offer an affordable piece of the American dream for working class families and young adults. These neighborhoods have real diversity as opposed to many of the gentrified neighborhoods in the urban core.

The Mid-Century Modest Manifesto ? Retro Renovation

Not to mention homes built earlier have undersized and substandard-for-today knob and tube wiring; the worst of the lead paint varieties; decentralized and antiquated heating and cooling systems; no insulation or insulation that has collapsed; frequently asbestos insulation in the attic, on piping, siding and roofing and other features that are great when they are brought up to the standards of the post war tract homes and beyond.

[mkjeeves]

You guys are over thinking this. The main problem is that we can't afford to maintain suburbia. I can get a loan for a BMW 750 but if I can't afford the $250 oil change every 3,000 miles how long is it going to look nice? Somewhere I have a presentation from StrongTowns that explains why suburbia can't be maintained and will always fall into disrepair. When I find it I will post it.

Please define the mile marker from downtown OKC where you would propose suburbia starts and is no longer viable.

BTW, my home is about 7 miles from downtown and I live, work, shop, go to the doctor etc all much closer together than I can go to downtown OKC and probably much closer together than most people who live and work in downtown can do those things.

[Just the facts]

It isn't a function of distance. It is a function tax collection being able to fund the infrastructure necessary to support the development. If it cost you more to go to work than you earn at work how long can you keep that job?

There is a good quote in the video. If you lose money on every transaction you can't make it up in volume.

[mkjeeves]

It isn't a function distance. It is a function tax collection being able to fund the infrastructure. If it cost you more to go to work than you earn at work how long can you keep that job?

There is a good quote in the video. If you lose money on every transaction you can't make it up in volume.

That's the point. It doesn't cost more for me to go to work, to shop, to do my daily activities, than I can earn.

[Snowman]

That's the point. It doesn't cost more for me to go to work, to shop, to do my daily activities, than I can earn.

His point was it probably costs the city more to maintain services to any suburban property than it will ever collect from that citizen or business. So while they may make money the first few decades they are loosing money on the vast majority if not all property in the suburban areas as it comes time for maintenance.