OKC Light Rail System?

[OKCisOK4me]

Always good to have this no matter what rail thread we're in:

Light rail - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

At the bottom of the link page are different modes of rail transportation for you to delve into. Enjoy!

[OKCisOK4me]

Also got to thinking about the argument of light rail vs. commuter rail. Obviously, cost wise, it would be more cost effective to go with commuter rail since it is 10 times cheaper per mile to construct. But either way, building in the right-of-way of BNSF's mainline and viewing that mainline on Google Maps, you see why it costs $6-8 million per mile. There's hardly any right-of-way left and you'd have to acquire some of that space back to make it happen.

Looking up the mainline (towards Edmond), I could see commuter rail existing on the east side of the ROW where there are already overpasses in place over 4th, 5th, and 6th Streets. Come 14th Street though and you run out of room on the east fringe. What happens there? Acquire that portion of the property from the owner and shave it off?

The railyard and industrial properties between 23rd & 36th could be turned into a storage and maintenance facility for commuter cars and engines. Beyond the yard, there's plenty of ROW for additional commuter track and then around the 50th Street area you run into the quagmire of a new 2 rail line bridge over 235, a level ROW wide enough between 235 and 44 to accommodate 2 lines (which isn't feasible now) and again, a two lane bridge over 44.

North of here, there's more, gotta rebuild a new 63rd Street bridge over the ROW to accommodate future growth in the ROW and that bridge is crumbling and bumpy anyway.

I could go on and on but you can look at Google Maps just to verify it, lol. As troublesome as this seems, tell me how and why you (general audience) think that light rail is so much better than commuter. I think the writer of the Edmond Sun article didn't do as much research as intended on the subject and got confused between the two modes of transportation.

[catch22]

Also got to thinking about the argument of light rail vs. commuter rail. Obviously, cost wise, it would be more cost effective to go with commuter rail since it is 10 times cheaper per mile to construct. But either way, building in the right-of-way of BNSF's mainline and viewing that mainline on Google Maps, you see why it costs $6-8 million per mile. There's hardly any right-of-way left and you'd have to acquire some of that space back to make it happen.

Looking up the mainline (towards Edmond), I could see commuter rail existing on the east side of the ROW where there are already overpasses in place over 4th, 5th, and 6th Streets. Come 14th Street though and you run out of room on the east fringe. What happens there? Acquire that portion of the property from the owner and shave it off?

The railyard and industrial properties between 23rd & 36th could be turned into a storage and maintenance facility for commuter cars and engines. Beyond the yard, there's plenty of ROW for additional commuter track and then around the 50th Street area you run into the quagmire of a new 2 rail line bridge over 235, a level ROW wide enough between 235 and 44 to accommodate 2 lines (which isn't feasible now) and again, a two lane bridge over 44.

North of here, there's more, gotta rebuild a new 63rd Street bridge over the ROW to accommodate future growth in the ROW and that bridge is crumbling and bumpy anyway.

I could go on and on but you can look at Google Maps just to verify it, lol. As troublesome as this seems, tell me how and why you (general audience) think that light rail is so much better than commuter. I think the writer of the Edmond Sun article didn't do as much research as intended on the subject and got confused between the two modes of transportation.

I am guessing this was directed towards me. I do not think light rail is better. I am asking what the difference in terms of frequency, headways, and speed is. Is commuter rail limited in the number of stops it can make because of acceleration and deceleration times, or are they comparable to each other and the difference is moot. I understand the difference between the two modes, but am curious as to how much one is better than the other?

Genuine question, not being rude. I have only used light rail and never have used commuter rail, so I am genuinely unfamiliar with the operations of commuter rail (but I do understand the physical differences of the two)

[BoulderSooner]

It will be faster and wider than any street around it.

25 mph in the middle

[CaptDave]

I think you manage the headways by using modern Rail Diesel Cars such as the Stadler units Denton uses on their 'A-Train' for most service. They are smaller and lighter than conventional locomotives and commuter cars. If extra capacity is needed, two can be coupled together. I think 10 - 15 minute headways would be easily achievable. For peak service and hourly runs each direction, run 2 or 3 conventional trainsets such as those used by Metra, TRE, or other commuter systems.

The right of way issues mentioned by OKC will need to be resolved, but it will be a much lower cost than light rail by a wide margin.

[OKCisOK4me]

I am guessing this was directed towards me. I do not think light rail is better. I am asking what the difference in terms of frequency, headways, and speed is. Is commuter rail limited in the number of stops it can make because of acceleration and deceleration times, or are they comparable to each other and the difference is moot. I understand the difference between the two modes, but am curious as to how much one is better than the other?

Genuine question, not being rude. I have only used light rail and never have used commuter rail, so I am genuinely unfamiliar with the operations of commuter rail (but I do understand the physical differences of the two)

No, lol, that's why I put General Audience in the post

When I think of commuter rail, I think of Chicago. When I think of light rail, I think of Dallas. Dallas has the population to offset the costs of light rail. OKC metro does not. The ROW is here now for us with BNSF. If we can get their thumbs up, which has been given on several occasions in other major cities, then I think commuter is the best route to go.

I have never ridden either

[OKCisOK4me]

The right of way issues mentioned by OKC will need to be resolved, but it will be a much lower cost than light rail by a wide margin.

Why there's no "like" option in this new thread I have no clue but +1

[catch22]

No, lol, that's why I put General Audience in the post

When I think of commuter rail, I think of Chicago. When I think of light rail, I think of Dallas. Dallas has the population to offset the costs of light rail. OKC metro does not. The ROW is here now for us with BNSF. If we can get their thumbs up, which has been given on several occasions in other major cities, then I think commuter is the best route to go.

I have never ridden either

Chicago's L system is light rail. They do have commuter rail that runs parallel to certain segments. I believe the commuter rail is called METRA and it is a completely different system and offers no connectivity to the Chicago CTA or the L. All METRA fares are only good on Metra and cannot be used on the L or CTA buses.

[Hutch]

The next generation diesel-electric locomotive of choice is the MPXpress made by the Idaho-based company MotivePower:

MPExpress

These engines generate higher torque and acceleration and meet EPA Tier 2 emissions standards. They are powerful and quiet, with a whining hum on accerlation that sounds like an Indy race car or a small jet engine. Their increased power and acceleration allows for station spacings similar to light rail systems. They are being used by Metrolink, Caltrain, Frontrunner, Rail Runner, NorthStar, Metra, MARC, MBTA and others. Most pull Bombardier Bi-Level American coaches, which have comfortable seating, restrooms and work tables.

Here's a video of a Caltrain "Baby Bullet" MPxpress accelerating away from a station:

Caltrain Accelerating

Here's a video of a NorthStar MPxpress zooming by on a test run:

NorthStar Zooming

This isn't your parents locomotive.

[ou48A]

Chicago's L system is light rail. They do have commuter rail that runs parallel to certain segments. I believe the commuter rail is called METRA and it is a completely different system and offers no connectivity to the Chicago CTA or the L. All METRA fares are only good on Metra and cannot be used on the L or CTA buses.

There is also a South Shore Line that slowly takes you to South Bend

[CaptDave]

The next generation diesel-electric locomotive of choice is the MPXpress made by the Idaho-based company MotivePower:

MPExpress

These engines generate higher torque and acceleration and meet EPA Tier 2 emissions standards. They are powerful and quiet, with a whining hum on accerlation that sounds like an Indy race car or a small jet engine. Their increased power and acceleration allows for station spacings similar to light rail systems. They are being used by Metrolink, Caltrain, Frontrunner, Rail Runner, NorthStar, Metra, MARC, MBTA and others. Most pull Bombardier Bi-Level American coaches, which have comfortable seating, restrooms and work tables.

Here's a video of a Caltrain "Baby Bullet" MPxpress accelerating away from a station:

Caltrain Accelerating

Here's a video of a NorthStar MPxpress zooming by on a test run:

NorthStar Zooming

This isn't your parents locomotive.

I saw a few MP36's when I was in DC this summer and took Acela to Baltimore and at the VRE station in Crystal City. They are pretty impressive.

[OKCisOK4me]

Chicago's L system is light rail. They do have commuter rail that runs parallel to certain segments. I believe the commuter rail is called METRA and it is a completely different system and offers no connectivity to the Chicago CTA or the L. All METRA fares are only good on Metra and cannot be used on the L or CTA buses.

Yes, the METRA is what I was referring to. Not the L. Sorry, to not point that out. There's a video on Faces of Death where a lady gets smashed by a BN F unit at a commuter station in the 1970s in the Chicago area...

[ou48A]

The next generation diesel-electric locomotive of choice is the MPXpress made by the Idaho-based company MotivePower:

MPExpress

These engines generate higher torque and acceleration and meet EPA Tier 2 emissions standards. They are powerful and quiet, with a whining hum on accerlation that sounds like an Indy race car or a small jet engine. Their increased power and acceleration allows for station spacings similar to light rail systems. They are being used by Metrolink, Caltrain, Frontrunner, Rail Runner, NorthStar, Metra, MARC, MBTA and others. Most pull Bombardier Bi-Level American coaches, which have comfortable seating, restrooms and work tables.

Here's a video of a Caltrain "Baby Bullet" MPxpress accelerating away from a station:

Caltrain Accelerating

Here's a video of a NorthStar MPxpress zooming by on a test run:

NorthStar Zooming

This isn't your parents locomotive.

VERY GOOD INFO.

Do we have any idea how many train sets and passenger cars we would need to operate a commuter rail system?
What is the desired capacity per hour?

[Hutch]

Surprised there is not a thread on this. I looked over the 7 pages and couldn't find a thread dedicated to a light rail for the greater OKC area. Anyways I came across this article from The Edmond Sun(of all places ) and thought I'd pass it along.

Group looks at light rail for metro » Local News » The Edmond Sun

Hmmmm....better check that link again....light rail for the metro?....the headline says we're looking at commuter rail

[OKCisOK4me]

Hmmmm....better check that link again....light rail for the metro?....the headline says we're looking at commuter rail

Hutch, check out the link in your browser...it says light rail. Obviously the folks up at Edmond Sun think that the two are the same thing... Maybe we should refer to it as rail transit, mode a) b) and c) until it actually gets here, lol.

[Hutch]

Hutch, check out the link in your browser...it says light rail. Obviously the folks up at Edmond Sun think that the two are the same thing... Maybe we should refer to it as rail transit, mode a) b) and c) until it actually gets here, lol.

Edmond Sun reporter James Coburn was kind enough to make the corrections to the article before it went to print in the Saturday edition. He also replaced the original online version with the revised article. It does still say "light rail" in the hyperlink, but I'm sure they left it that way so that wherever the original link had been posted or sent, it would connect to the new article. If they changed the hyperlink, the old link would not access the corrected article and would also no longer show the original article, as it has been removed.

In addition to the headline, they also corrected the Frontrunner reference to commuter rail and the revised the property value increase attributable to DART to 4.5 billion.

I appreciate their willingness and effort to make the corrections.

[OKCisOK4me]

Well, with a new possibility of the Flyer going thru Edmond on its way to Tulsa, this could be a big player since Edmond does not currently have a station. If the Flyer is extended to Tulsa or Kansas then Edmond will need to at least build a platform of some kind which will eventually be used by commuter rail as well.

[Just the facts]

You have to admit - this looks pretty darn cool.

[CuatrodeMayo]

25 mph in the middle

6 blocks of a 2.5 mile "boulevard".

[Hutch]

VERY GOOD INFO.

Do we have any idea how many train sets and passenger cars we would need to operate a commuter rail system?
What is the desired capacity per hour?

I don't know the exact answer to those questions. The new "Commuter Corridor Analysis" that URS Corporation is beginning for ACOG will most likely answers those and many other technical questions about conerning commuter rail, including estimated ridershsip, service frequency, operational capacities, station locations, track and infrastructure improvements, train types and numbers, and development and operational costs. The study will be ongoing for the next year and a half or so. URS will hold a number of public meetings during that time to obtain public input and discuss their efforts. I encourage everyone to keep informed throughout the process and participate in the public scoping process.

There were some preliminary estimates made of commuter rail service frequency and operational capacities by Jacobs Engineering as part of the Intermodal Hub Study that was completed in 2011. Those estimates were used to analyze service and operational capacity of the proposed intermodal hub. You can find information on the hub study at ACOG's website:

ACOG Intermodal Hub Study

Based on the Jacobs analysis, there would be seperate trains that ran between a) Norman and Edmond, b) Norman and Midwest City and c) Edmond and Midwest City. All trains would connect through Santa Fe Intermodal Station in OKC. The Norman to Emdond trains would be on offsetting service times from the Norman to Midwest City and Edmond to Midwest City trains. With the offset service times, if the trains were initially all on one-hour headways, the effect would be 30-minute headways for the system. The number of train sets required to operate on 30-minute headways will depend on the number of stations, stop times and other factors. My guess would be that initially each train set would be made up of one locomotive and two or three bi-level coaches. As ridership grows, you don't add additional train sets, just additonal coaches. You would only need to add additional train sets if you went to shorter headway times.

I hope that helps answer your questions.

[Hutch]

You have to admit - this looks pretty darn cool.

We have provided links to a number of excellent commuter rail videos on the OnTrac website, including tours of the inside of coaches and explanations of system operations. The links are on the right side of the main page:

OnTrac Website

There are two really cool videos of the Frontrunner on a trip from Salt Lake City to Ogden and back, where they have mounted a camera on the lower nose of the MXpress locomotive and sped the video up to give you a sense of flying along the tracks.

[Plutonic Panda]

Does anyone think OKC will ever get a true light-rail system. I mean a commuter would be great, don't get me wrong. But, I want something this is built for its own purpose. Not just expanding what we have now and adding new cars to the tracks. I'm sure a light-rail is much faster than a commuter rail.



Now this would be awesome! The chances of something like this being built across the OKC metro, not so awesome.

[Just the facts]

Commuter rail is much faster than light-rail. It isn't even close. Commuter rail can easily hit 90 mph. If you look on YouTube you can find videos of the New Mexico Rail Runner blowing by cars I-25 which are doing 65 to 75 mph. According to the speed app on my phone the train from downtown Philly to the airport hits 80 mph. Monorails are super expensive and really aren't that great at attracting riders or spurring development. Mass transit of all varieties work best at ground level where potential customers can see it.

[Plutonic Panda]

Commuter rail is much faster than light-rail. It isn't even close. Commuter rail can easily hit 90 mph. If you look on YouTube you can find videos of the New Mexico Rail Runner blowing by cars I-25 which are doing 65 to 75 mph. According to the speed app on my phone the train from downtown Philly to the airport hits 80 mph. Monorails are super expensive and really aren't that great at attracting riders or spurring development. Mass transit of all varieties work best at ground level where potential customers can see it.

Oh, I didn't really look into it that much. Why can't they design light-rail to hit 100 or more mph? If they have their own specially built tracks? I don't see how it wouldn't work? It's just like a "local" HSR except it wouldn't go as fast. You could make it work just as easy on the ground, yes? Forgive if I sound stupid on this matter. I'm not too knowledgeable on this matter and also too lazy to Google it at the current moment

[catch22]

Higher speeds over short distance create very small time differences.

While I had a fling in Edmond last year, I timed my average commute (living on the south side driving to Edmond to see her) for fun. Taking the same exact route every time, I averaged around 34 minutes at 60mph highway and 45 city (the speed limit). I averaged 33 minutes at 75mph highway and 50 city. This was over several months, so lots of data to average in.

This was kind of proof to me that speeding doesn't make you get anywhere any faster unless you have a very large distance to extrapolate the times over.

So, in conclusion. 80mph and 100mph, you are talking a matter of seconds time difference over such a short distance as our rail lines would be.