Lake Hefner at record low water levels, when will city buy Canton water?

[rtz]

Comical situation with the water release. The gates at Canton were initially opened a half foot. Then increased to a full foot. Then trimmed down to .9. Now back at a half foot.

The canal locks for Hefner were initially before opening them; the water was at a depth of five and a half feet. Then opened them up and raised the level to six feet. Now 6 and a half feet.

The lake level has been holding steady vs's dropping daily.

[OkiePoke]

RTZ, do you have any experience or background in water management?

[PaddyShack]

Someone needs to pay for this with money and jail time but I don't think that will ever happen. Who are the developers? The story said one lives at the location.

I believe the builder is Crabtree Homes

[mkjeeves]

I believe the builder is Crabtree Homes

I searched "Crabtree Homes" with other keywords and found a Fox story where they were listed as the builder, and quoted as saying the pond was the responsibility of the developer. Apparently those are different entities. I wonder who the developer is?

[Bill Robertson]

I haven't found anything saying what stage this development is in. If it's still being built up and the developer is involved then it's probably on him/them. If it's a completed addition then it's on whoever actually filled the pond with city water. When an addition is completed the developer is pretty much out of the picture.

[mkjeeves]

I haven't found anything saying what stage this development is in. If it's still being built up and the developer is involved then it's probably on him/them. If it's a completed addition then it's on whoever actually filled the pond with city water. When an addition is completed the developer is pretty much out of the picture.

From the KFOR story:

Attorney Scott Adams represents the developers. The city put the company on notice this summer, threatening criminal charges. So far, the case is being handled by the city attorneys’ office.

"It was just as much of a surprise to them as it was everyone else,” Adams said. “The day we found out that there was something going on out there, we immediately tried to address it and make sure it never happens again.”

The development company is fully cooperating with the city investigation."

It was aliens that came down, installed the illegal tap and flowed 35,000,000 gallons of water into the pond. Because, you know, they like earthlings to have their lakeside lots. Who owned the property when and where the tap was alleged to have been installed?

[Bill Robertson]

From the KFOR story:

Attorney Scott Adams represents the developers. The city put the company on notice this summer, threatening criminal charges. So far, the case is being handled by the city attorneys’ office.

"It was just as much of a surprise to them as it was everyone else,” Adams said. “The day we found out that there was something going on out there, we immediately tried to address it and make sure it never happens again.”

The development company is fully cooperating with the city investigation."

It was aliens that came down, installed the illegal tap and flowed 35,000,000 gallons of water into the pond. Because, you know, they like earthlings to have their lakeside lots.

Ok. So it sounds like the developer is either still involved because the addition is still being built or because they live there. And of course nobody is going to admit to knowing anything about anything.

[mkjeeves]

Nope. There's probably no witnesses other than some plumbing, utility or irrigation contractor who made the tap and whomever was turning it off and on, assuming they didn't just let run for the last two years. OKC has not turned it over the district attorney yet. I guess they can subpoena records with the lawsuit and try to narrow down who worked out there but cooperating would seem to imply the developer would have done that. Maybe someone will rat out the culprit(s).

[HOT ROD]

One could still correctly argue that Oklahoma's water comes from Colorado; via rivers from snowmelt in the Spring and shoulder Summer seasons but also from Thunderstorms that originate from the weather systems that DEFINITELY develop in the Rockies full year as the prevailing winds interact with the Gulf moisture.

Either way, the US is very dependent upon Colorado for water, directly and indirectly depending upon the season, location, and Rocky Mountain snow pack.

[bombermwc]

One could still correctly argue that Oklahoma's water comes from Colorado; via rivers from snowmelt in the Spring and shoulder Summer seasons but also from Thunderstorms that originate from the weather systems that DEFINITELY develop in the Rockies full year as the prevailing winds interact with the Gulf moisture.

Either way, the US is very dependent upon Colorado for water, directly and indirectly depending upon the season, location, and Rocky Mountain snow pack.

I dont think so...im fairly certain the Colorado River is on the OTHER side of the continental divide. We're actually on the dry side of that whole Rocky Mountain system.

[BoulderSooner]

I dont think so...im fairly certain the Colorado River is on the OTHER side of the continental divide. We're actually on the dry side of that whole Rocky Mountain system.

the arkansas River starts in Colorado as well ... as well as the Canadian River ..

[Bellaboo]

I dont think so...im fairly certain the Colorado River is on the OTHER side of the continental divide. We're actually on the dry side of that whole Rocky Mountain system.

I believe the Colorado River starts in Rocky Mountain National Park just west of Estes Park. And it is west of the Continental Divide.

[Bill Robertson]

Wasn't sure where the Colorado River started but it runs through the Grand Canyon in Arizona so it has to be West of the Continental Divide.

[Zorba]

the arkansas River starts in Colorado as well ... as well as the Canadian River ..

And the average flow leaving Colorado is tiny compared to average flow leaving Oklahoma.

At the first USGS gauging station in Kansas, the Arkansas River has averaged 93.7 cubic feet per second (7.75 acre foot/hour) over the last decade. At the last Gauging Station in Kansas the average discharge has grown to 2183 cubic feet per second (180.4 acre foot/hr). Then finally at the last gauging station in Oklahoma (really Ft. Smith, AR) it has grown to 40,635 cfs (3358 acre foot/hour).

Also of note, the annual average discharge of the Arkansas River through Ft. Smith is about 3.5x the annual discharge from Lake Mead. To get that amount of water to Lake Mead, though, would require a 65 foot diameter pipeline and a couple nuke plants to provide the pumping power.

[Scott5114]

Also of note, the annual average discharge of the Arkansas River through Ft. Smith is about 3.5x the annual discharge from Lake Mead. To get that amount of water to Lake Mead, though, would require a 65 foot diameter pipeline and a couple nuke plants to provide the pumping power.

I wouldn't be surprised if plans for something like that start being seriously considered the longer the drought in the West continues. There's just too much money tied up in the Colorado River basin to let it run dry.

[Plutonic Panda]

I wouldn't be surprised if plans for something like that start being seriously considered the longer the drought in the West continues. There's just too much money tied up in the Colorado River basin to let it run dry.

Yeah it’s something that should happen, IMO.

[gopokes88]

I wouldn't be surprised if plans for something like that start being seriously considered the longer the drought in the West continues. There's just too much money tied up in the Colorado River basin to let it run dry.

Yep and it should happen.

You could build a network of pipelines in Oklahoma to balance where the draw comes from. Then pipe the water to the continental divide in NM and feed the SW that way. Have the pipe drain into the Colorado and Rio Grande basins.

[gopokes88]

That flood on Keystone Lake a few years back, the discharge off the dam would have filled both Lake Powell and Lake Mead in like 30 days.

The Feds need to figure out how to balance the water in this country. They will, but it'll have to run dry before they do.

[Snowman]

Yep and it should happen.

You could build a network of pipelines in Oklahoma to balance where the draw comes from. Then pipe the water to the continental divide in NM and feed the SW that way. Have the pipe drain into the Colorado and Rio Grande basins.

Oklahoma would not even let Texas draw water out of the tributaries to the Red River, this is something that once it hits there Texas already is due a portion of. There is no way they are going to support diverting massive quantities of water in Oklahoma to the west coast, and there are multiple of states downstream that have water rights once it leaves Oklahoma which probably would fight it just as much as Oklahoma would. In general there are not many states that seem open to having water in their territory shifted out, and if you go to areas like the end of the Mississippi that have the volumes to not care and deal with enough flooding they might even help promote it, probably has some of the worst quality water to serve as a feed stock in the country.

As much as a hassle as it would be to deal with mountains in northern California and Oregon, they already divert a lot from norther California to southern California, so there likely would be far less infrastructure to build there than across the Rockies and hundreds of miles of arid land on either side.

[gopokes88]

Oklahoma would not even let Texas draw water out of the tributaries to the Red River, this is something that once it hits there Texas already is due a portion of. There is no way they are going to support diverting massive quantities of water in Oklahoma to the west coast, and there are multiple of states downstream that have water rights once it leaves Oklahoma which probably would fight it just as much as Oklahoma would. In general there are not many states that seem open to having water in their territory shifted out, and if you go to areas like the end of the Mississippi that have the volumes to not care and deal with enough flooding they might even help promote it, probably has some of the worst quality water to serve as a feed stock in the country.

As much as a hassle as it would be to deal with mountains in northern California and Oregon, they already divert a lot from norther California to southern California, so there likely would be far less infrastructure to build there than across the Rockies and hundreds of miles of arid land on either side.

You don't have to cross any mountains if the release point is in New Mexico. Have a lot of elevation to deal with, but can pretty easily avoid the mountains. There's a huge gap between ABQ and SF, link up the Rio Chama water project and reverse the flow. Can feed both the Colorado River basin (via Lake Navajo to Powell to Mead) and Rio Grande.

It'll take a federal solution for sure. Oklahoma doesn't want to ship the water out west for free, but few hundred million a year though? They'd be open to it, especially if in times of drought the shipments stop. For the most part though, from OKC to the east we get more than enough water to support it.

[HangryHippo]

You don't have to cross any mountains if the release point is in New Mexico. Have a lot of elevation to deal with, but can pretty easily avoid the mountains. There's a huge gap between ABQ and SF, link up the Rio Chama water project and reverse the flow. Can feed both the Colorado River basin (via Lake Navajo to Powell to Mead) and Rio Grande.

It'll take a federal solution for sure. Oklahoma doesn't want to ship the water out west for free, but few hundred million a year though? They'd be open to it, especially if in times of drought the shipments stop. For the most part though, from OKC to the east we get more than enough water to support it.

My starting point would be $600 million.

[HOT ROD]

flow of Arkansas leaving Colorado may be low compared to the river leaving Oklahoma, but consider that most major tributaries of the Arkansas River also start in Colorado; add those up and it's significant to create a 'big' river leaving Oklahoma. Not saying water ONLY comes from Colorado, but water does begin there and is due to the Rockies direct from snowpack melt and indirect from weather/Thunderstorms created from the interaction of the Colorado Rockies (lift and cooling) and Gulf of Mexico (warm, moisture).

[Jersey Boss]

Desalination facilities are what I would favor.

[Bellaboo]

flow of Arkansas leaving Colorado may be low compared to the river leaving Oklahoma, but consider that most major tributaries of the Arkansas River also start in Colorado; add those up and it's significant to create a 'big' river leaving Oklahoma. Not saying water ONLY comes from Colorado, but water does begin there and is due to the Rockies direct from snowpack melt and indirect from weather/Thunderstorms created from the interaction of the Colorado Rockies (lift and cooling) and Gulf of Mexico (warm, moisture).

In western Kansas, the Arkansas River is dry 90 % of the time. Lakin Lake is fed by the Arkansas River via the Amazon Ditch. The lake is used for irrigation in western Ks. At Garden City, the river is nothing but sand.

[Scott5114]

Oklahoma would not even let Texas draw water out of the tributaries to the Red River, this is something that once it hits there Texas already is due a portion of. There is no way they are going to support diverting massive quantities of water in Oklahoma to the west coast, and there are multiple of states downstream that have water rights once it leaves Oklahoma which probably would fight it just as much as Oklahoma would. In general there are not many states that seem open to having water in their territory shifted out, and if you go to areas like the end of the Mississippi that have the volumes to not care and deal with enough flooding they might even help promote it, probably has some of the worst quality water to serve as a feed stock in the country.

Thing is, California, Nevada, and Arizona make up 17.4% of the country's GDP. Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Louisiana make up 2.7%. (And going off of what another poster said, that assumes that Louisiana cares enough about the water from the Arkansas/Canadian watersheds to get involved—Oklahoma and Arkansas alone are only 1.5%.) It wouldn't even be close to a fair fight—the western states have far more power and money. If they want it, there's really nothing Oklahoma could do to stop it. They simply have more resources (political, legal, financial, will) to make it happen than Oklahoma does to fight it. It would be in Oklahoma's interest to cooperate and see if they can get some sort of compensation for it rather than simply try to stop it.