Is Norman going downhill??

[Spartan]

I don't mean to start an incendiary thread off the bat, but I think the question has been raised in several threads, and now it totally warrants its own discussion. I feel as though there are both tangible and intangible ways in which Norman has gone downhill. The biggest way that Norman has gone downhill is from losing the promise and potential that it was showing in 2005, when things were going very well, Norman was looking at an avalanche of great urban development, attracting more good jobs than anywhere else in the metro, the demographics were promising for bringing in retailers that existed nowhere else in the metro, and so on. Above all, Norman in 2005 was the undisputed epicenter of Central Oklahoma's urban professional culture.

Today all of those urban professionals have either moved to Deep Deuce or OKC's inner north side. Norman is losing more good jobs than anywhere else in the metro. Most of that promising development fell flat due to poor city development oversight and a city council that is far more interested in sprawl development at the expense of inner Norman. And now there is no way that Norman will live up to the potential it was showing in 2005.

Campus Corner has held on and remained healthy. Downtown Norman experienced a resurgence between 2005-2009. Now the Norman city council is actively preempting other areas from experiencing urban growth (saying no to high-rise development along Boyd). Furthermore, the only city in Central Oklahoma that used to be anti-sprawl, is now the epicenter of distasteful, low-quality sprawl development. Cheaply-built apartments on NW 36th, bring em on. UNP strip mall instead of a lifestyle center. So on and so forth.

It is fair to say that Norman is nose-diving. As far as college towns go, Norman used to be unparalleled in Oklahoma. Now Stillwater and Edmond have caught up.

[ou48A]

Norman took a turn for the worse when they started requiring a 4,000 dollar sewage hookup fee for new construction. Letting things like the Warren Theater and other business get way was a mistake.

Norman leadership has devoted far too much attention to social justice issues and to issues that don’t promote the general prosperity of the great majority of its citizens. Any time they waste time on those things takes away time that would be better spent on bring more and better jobs to Norman.

Norman very badly needs better streets and area highways that go well beyond any current plans.

The good news is that for the most part all that’s really required is a better set of priorities from the city leadership at the top.

[adaniel]

Is Norman going downhill? Not really.

Is Norman at a significant crossroads? Very much so. And I've heard from several people outside this board that the city is stagnating.

I wouldn't go so far as to say Norman was the center of urban professional culture in OK, because frankly, there has never been all that much white collar employment in Norman. The city, however, was setting itself up nicely to be a nice college town/satellite city hybrid, much like Ann Arbor is to Detroit. Or at least it seemed it was when I first came to Norman in 2004.

Somewhere between now and then, something went very wrong. Not all of it the city's fault. UNP was a bad gamble that blew up in the face of the city because of the 2008 meltdown. They are making the best of it. But I have to ask, why put so much effort into developing an "upscale mall" on the outskirts of the city when (a) Moore was/is clearly winning the "big box" retail battle and (b) Norman had such a great core with its downtown and Campus Corner, both of which could have been drastically improved with only moderate investments and commitment.

Other things the city has done have been far more troubling. Losing Dell to OKC. Losing Petco to San Antonio. Ignoring badly needed infrastructure improvements. Giving lip service to the eTec business incubator. Not facilitating any sort of office development (such as the 15 story tower proposal) that would lure white collar jobs. If Norman wants to stand on its own and be out of the shadow of OKC its going to have to have some sort of economic base. The massive amount of traffic commuting out of Norman every morning says otherwise.

Cindy Rosenthal is a very nice lady, and I have met her personally. But she really has no vision for the city. Her job is incredibly difficult. She must balance out the wishes of three factions of Norman, the liberal, college town set, the suburban commuters who've moved there over the past 20 years, and the conservative townies that can be found in any Oklahoma county seat.

I have left Norman 3 years ago and now live in midtown, and at least 2 of my neighbors have done the same thing in the past 18 months. I'm interested to hear what others think can snap the town out of its funk. Maybe a MAP's style slate of projects. What would be included in them?

[vaflyer]

Cindy Rosenthal is a very nice lady, and I have met her personally. But she really has no vision for the city. Her job is incredibly difficult. She must balance out the wishes of three factions of Norman, the liberal, college town set, the suburban commuters who've moved there over the past 20 years, and the conservative townies that can be found in any Oklahoma county seat.

I believe the city is in need of change in the mayor's office. Cindy Rosenthal is the longest serving member on council (as the mayor and previously as Ward 4 councilmember). The job requires a ton of time and just drains people. Norman needs new blood with new ideas as it is losing the retail war (and the associated sales tax dollars) to Moore. As for jobs, the city is actively chasing that advanced aircraft parts manufacturing facility but, from what I have heard, the manufacturing jobs are nothing great to write home about. Furthermore, the city has gone from #6 best city to live in to somewhere in the 90's (and Moore is now higher) during the Mayor's tenure.

[OKCisOK4me]

no comment

[Spartan]

The problem with throwing Rosenthal under the bus is that she's the only person on the council who actually has the right ideas. However, as a leader, she has been proven beyond inept. Is her job difficult? Sure, but that has only exacerbated the weakness of her leadership as she lets the Tea Party wackadoos on council run over her each week.

Norman took a turn for the worse when they started requiring a 4,000 dollar sewage hookup fee for new construction. Letting things like the Warren Theater and other business get way was a mistake.

Norman leadership has devoted far too much attention to social justice issues and to issues that don’t promote the general prosperity of the great majority of its citizens. Any time they waste time on those things takes away time that would be better spent on bring more and better jobs to Norman.

Norman very badly needs better streets and area highways that go well beyond any current plans.

The good news is that for the most part all that’s really required is a better set of priorities from the city leadership at the top.

I think this post kind of highlights the problem with Norman. It's true that there are some very backward forces holding the city back (much like Tulsa, which is also going downhill) while the opposing progressive forces are clearly succeeding in OKC and Stillwater. Norman needs to see itself more as the state's 4th largest city and less as a suburb of OKC.

Norman won't grow and live up to its potential by listening to gripes like, "Grrr, stop with the damn social issues, and the sewage hookup fees, grrr!!" and "Grr, more highways, repave every road, wider roads, grrr!" I absolutely agree that Norman needs to focus on 3 things: 1, what makes it unique (Campus Corner, downtown, and maybe even a willingness to talk about a link between high school gay bashing and teen suicide); 2, Tech, which is the huge missed opportunity; and 3, growing office space, which is absolutely vital to growing the white collar workforce.

I interned in Norman's City Hall several years ago at a time when the progressives were beginning to capitulate. I went to several of the initial meetings on the Porter streetscape plan, and when that was first began several years ago, there was so much optimism around there. Now it's just the "don't give a fu$#" attitude about everything around Norman, and it's just a shame that the only way you can quantify it is in the heaps of lost sales tax revenue to Moore. Which is interesting itself because Moore is so incompetent it's not funny, if you look at their parks proposal (which passed) you can tell they can't envision a quality built environment to save their life. Moore should not be this stiff competition for a city with as much beauty and potential as Norman, but somehow it is.

[bluedogok]

Norman took a turn for the worse when they started requiring a 4,000 dollar sewage hookup fee for new construction. Letting things like the Warren Theater and other business get way was a mistake.

$4,000 seems cheap, some of the lots that we looked at here in the Denver area had a $40,000 water/sewage tap fee. Needless to say, we liked the area but didn't buy there.

[ou48A]

When business leaders see a community won’t even build modern streets, highways and decongest their own community for them self’s they know to not expect too much else of quality no matter what else they are told. They often move on when considering a relocation / expansion.

[ou48A]

I believe the city is in need of change in the mayor's office. Cindy Rosenthal is the longest serving member on council (as the mayor and previously as Ward 4 councilmember). The job requires a ton of time and just drains people. Norman needs new blood with new ideas as it is losing the retail war (and the associated sales tax dollars) to Moore. As for jobs, the city is actively chasing that advanced aircraft parts manufacturing facility but, from what I have heard, the manufacturing jobs are nothing great to write home about. Furthermore, the city has gone from #6 best city to live in to somewhere in the 90's (and Moore is now higher) during the Mayor's tenure.

The job performance of the Norman mayor has shown that she cannot deliver quality leadership for the vast majority of residents. She waste too muchof her time trying to make Norman an inclusive community and on social justice issues than with the bottom line issues of making the community more business friendly and more prosperous for the vast majority of the population.

[Spartan]

The job performance of the Norman mayor has shown that she cannot deliver quality leadership for the vast majority of residents. She waste too muchof her time trying to make Norman an inclusive community and on social justice issues than with the bottom line issues of making the community more business friendly and more prosperous for the vast majority of the population.

What do you have against a public discussion about high school bullying/gay bashing = teen suicide ??

[ou48A]

What do you have against a public discussion about high school bullying/gay bashing = teen suicide ??

There are thousands of underemployed people in the Norman area. OU graduates hundreds of very high quality graduates each year in various fields of high demand science and in other important fields of study. Yet very little is done by the city Norman to develop high wage jobs. Except for the weather industry, who Boren is mostly responsible for, the city of Norman has virtually have turned their back in recent years on this segment of the population and the potential of their high wage jobs that would help improve the quality of life for almost everybody in the Norman area.

It’s a serious matter of miss placed priority’s that impacts virtually the entire population.
Its dereliction of duty and management that should be fired ASAP.

[Soonerus]

Frankly, as a suburb Norman is doing fine, thank you very much !!!

[blangtang]

When business leaders see a community won’t even build modern streets, highways and decongest their own community for them self’s they know to not expect too much else of quality no matter what else they are told. They often move on when considering a relocation / expansion.

One way Norman went downhill is starting a few years ago when the City had a pot of money solely dedicated to building "speed humps". The first I remember are around the campus area. Soon other neighborhoods began competing to be the next in line to have "speed humps" littered all along the neighborhood roadways. It got so bad that the drivers of firetrucks and ambulances began complaining that it was a nuisance and impediment to fulfilling their job duties. Thats just one example from recent memory.

Another example would be the confusing issue of how the ambulances were unable to bring west Norman resident to the hospital over on the central/east part of town, so it was deemed necessary to build that underpass thing to facilitate this problem. But as time went on, funds were secured, housed and businesses were demo'd to complete the project. But by the time the underpass was recently finished, the Norman Hospital decided to go plan and build that big new Hospital on the Northwest side of town.

But besides the rest of it, hasn't Norman always been run by bankers, land developers and builiders? I thought so, and the brief moment in time of OU professor David Ray being on council, then Cindy taking over for him in ward 4 , and eventually becoming Mayor as a blip instead of some sort of inclusive liberal hippie college town on a hill vision of the OP. I would venture a guess that Norman will NOT be electing any OU professors any time soon, and I didn't have a problem with Cindy and her ilk.

[bluedogok]

When business leaders see a community won’t even build modern streets, highways and decongest their own community for them self’s they know to not expect too much else of quality no matter what else they are told. They often move on when considering a relocation / expansion.

It doesn't always work that way, leadership in Austin for awhile during the first wave of the tech boom decided if they didn't expand or build new roads people would quit moving there because it was so congested....that didn't seem to work too well. A few elections later more business friendly people were elected but not much was done for roads.

[Spartan]

There are thousands of underemployed people in the Norman area. OU graduates hundreds of very high quality graduates each year in various fields of high demand science and in other important fields of study. Yet very little is done by the city Norman to develop high wage jobs. Except for the weather industry, who Boren is mostly responsible for, the city of Norman has virtually have turned their back in recent years on this segment of the population and the potential of their high wage jobs that would help improve the quality of life for almost everybody in the Norman area.

It’s a serious matter of miss placed priority’s that impacts virtually the entire population.
Its dereliction of duty and management that should be fired ASAP.

I absolutely agree. Then that's the issue. I don't know what taking up social issues has to do with this, because I assure you that doesn't take longer than the 3 meetings needed to pass some meaningless resolution anyway. And now, I guess a bit more time because one of the Tea Party wackadoos wants to be ON RECORD supporting high school bullying/gay bashing.

Norman's elected leadership is pretty worthless on economic development.

[venture]

I absolutely agree. Then that's the issue. I don't know what taking up social issues has to do with this, because I assure you that doesn't take longer than the 3 meetings needed to pass some meaningless resolution anyway. And now, I guess a bit more time because one of the Tea Party wackadoos wants to be ON RECORD supporting high school bullying/gay bashing.

Norman's elected leadership is pretty worthless on economic development.

Dave Spaulding will hopefully be gone after the council elections this year. Though I'm sure him and his wife will still be there bashing away with the rest of their backwoods friends.

Overall yes...the city has become stagnant the last few years. The explosion of Moore's retail area is a huge hurt to UNP. However, they have the benefit of all that wide open area right on the south side of OKC. That additional 15-20 minutes down 35 probably hurts us more than we realize. All in all, I still really love the city but I do wish there were more places to work down here. However, I would have zero intention of leaving my current company for one down here. I'll likely move before that would ever happen.

[gamecock]

One way Norman went downhill is starting a few years ago when the City had a pot of money solely dedicated to building "speed humps". The first I remember are around the campus area. Soon other neighborhoods began competing to be the next in line to have "speed humps" littered all along the neighborhood roadways. It got so bad that the drivers of firetrucks and ambulances began complaining that it was a nuisance and impediment to fulfilling their job duties. Thats just one example from recent memory.

Another example would be the confusing issue of how the ambulances were unable to bring west Norman resident to the hospital over on the central/east part of town, so it was deemed necessary to build that underpass thing to facilitate this problem. But as time went on, funds were secured, housed and businesses were demo'd to complete the project. But by the time the underpass was recently finished, the Norman Hospital decided to go plan and build that big new Hospital on the Northwest side of town.

But besides the rest of it, hasn't Norman always been run by bankers, land developers and builiders? I thought so, and the brief moment in time of OU professor David Ray being on council, then Cindy taking over for him in ward 4 , and eventually becoming Mayor as a blip instead of some sort of inclusive liberal hippie college town on a hill vision of the OP. I would venture a guess that Norman will NOT be electing any OU professors any time soon, and I didn't have a problem with Cindy and her ilk.

I'm not sure I agree with these examples. We have a problem with speeding in our neighborhood, and our neighbors signed a petition asking for speed humps to be put in. It hasn't completely solved the problem, but the situation is much better now.

Likewise, regardless of where Norman Regional decided to locate their new hospital, we desperately needed that underpass. It was ridiculous that a town the size of Norman did not have a major route that was not blocked by the trains that come through.

UNP has not developed as quickly as I had hoped, but I think a lot of that is attributable to the economy. Moreover, people continue to be confused about how it was supposed to unfold. Just ONE part of the development, the lifestyle center, was ever supposed to be upscale. Still, I'd rather see more restaurants and fewer mattress stores.

[kevinpate]

... I'd rather see more restaurants and fewer mattress stores.

I can readily agree with the latter part of this. As to the food options, how many are needed? There's at least eight already, excluding any options at the conference hotel (Logan's, Chedders, Zio's, Five Guys, PEI WEI, Panda Express, Qdoba, Chipotle. There's also a Starbucks and an ice cream place. Just south of Logan's across Robinson are Carl's, Sonic and T-bell and a Marco's. The Homeland Deli has both hot and cold prepped food as well. Don;t recall what Target does or doesn't offer. No small number of choices in that 3/4 mile stretch.

[gamecock]

I can readily agree with the latter part of this. As to the food options, how many are needed? There's at least eight already, excluding any options at the conference hotel (Logan's, Chedders, Zio's, Five Guys, PEI WEI, Panda Express, Qdoba, Chipotle. There's also a Starbucks and an ice cream place. Just south of Logan's across Robinson are Carl's, Sonic and T-bell and a Marco's. The Homeland Deli has both hot and cold prepped food as well. Don;t recall what Target does or doesn't offer. No small number of choices in that 3/4 mile stretch.

I meant real restaurants, not fast food or fast-casual. Zio's was a good addition, but that mattress store by Logan's should probably be something like TGI Friday's. I was disappointed that Chuy's decided to locate right next to Ted's along the Interstate rather than in the UNP area.

[Spartan]

I'm not sure I agree with these examples. We have a problem with speeding in our neighborhood, and our neighbors signed a petition asking for speed humps to be put in. It hasn't completely solved the problem, but the situation is much better now.

Likewise, regardless of where Norman Regional decided to locate their new hospital, we desperately needed that underpass. It was ridiculous that a town the size of Norman did not have a major route that was not blocked by the trains that come through.

UNP has not developed as quickly as I had hoped, but I think a lot of that is attributable to the economy. Moreover, people continue to be confused about how it was supposed to unfold. Just ONE part of the development, the lifestyle center, was ever supposed to be upscale. Still, I'd rather see more restaurants and fewer mattress stores.

I completely agree with you that the traffic calming mechanisms are a good thing to have - that's a streetscape amenity for neighborhoods, and also a quality of life amenity. I also agree the underpass was necessary, and perhaps that was one thing that gave Moore such an advantage (19th Street's BNSF underpass). Having to stop for so long so often for so many trains just couldn't go on.

As for UNP, I disagree there. You're right, it was supposed to be part strip mall and part lifestyle center. The project however was sold to voters (to get the TIF) on the lifestyle center which is now years behind schedule and probably never going to happen. That lifestyle center was why I, as a Norman voter at that time, voted YES on the TIF. I wish I hadn't, even if that nixed the hotel. UNP is an absolutely failure of oversight because the city did not leverage strip mall expansion approval to force the developers to either get serious about the lifestyle center, or knock the whole project off. The developer pulled the ole switcharoo on the city, which got stuck holding the tab for a lovely "park" for the strip mall.

[ereid]

Just a side note: Chuy's could not build in UNP because of the architectural requirements...

[ou48A]

I don’t like the speed bumps and I especially don’t like the traffic circles. The city installed too many of these.

2 or 3 years ago somebody on the city council said that a study indicated that traffic calming devices cost more lives than they save. They delay the response times to emergencies, cause vehicle damage and in some cases damage city property. I would have rather hired more police for better enforcement.

On a personal note: About 3 years ago before he died I was driving my then 90 year old father someplace and drove over a traffic calming devise at what I thought was a very reasonable speed for him of about 20 mph. My dad was a tough old man (WWII combat decorated) but he complained about the jarring impact this had on his arthritic body. I can only imagine the physical pain these traffic devices have needlessly caused to our elderly population.

When things like this are done by supposedly smart well educated people it’s clear to see that some decisions that have been made by Norman leadership have not been well thought out. It also shows us on matters such as this how great common sense still trumps any amount of education or credentials

[ou48A]

I am OK with the underpass, but a far better visionary solution would have been to bury the train tracks.

This would have improved the quality of life for far more people in Norman with lower traffic congestion but also lower sound levels. It would have helped property values and improved the desirability of living and working in central Norman.

We need to be thinking in bolder ways with our area streets and highways.

But it’s not too late to bury the train ……We could still lower the tracks south of Robinson to south of Lindsey and improve our quality of life.

[Dubya61]

Frankly, as a suburb Norman is doing fine, thank you very much !!!

Yeah, but is that all Norman is? A suburb? I think Norman should aspire to be the center of the Metro! I think all of the metro entities should aspire to be the center of the Metro. It might be a little misplaced in some instances (say, Vally Park, or whatever the den of strip clubs and CRM calls itself), but it's still a good aspiration and Norman probably has a better claim to that aspiration than any. Norman has so much potential and although it's probably not going downhill, it certainly is failing to thrive as it could. Spartan has a very valid question.

[Spartan]

I don’t like the speed bumps and I especially don’t like the traffic circles. The city installed too many of these.

2 or 3 years ago somebody on the city council said that a study indicated that traffic calming devices cost more lives than they save. They delay the response times to emergencies, cause vehicle damage and in some cases damage city property. I would have rather hired more police for better enforcement.

On a personal note: About 3 years ago before he died I was driving my then 90 year old father someplace and drove over a traffic calming devise at what I thought was a very reasonable speed for him of about 20 mph. My dad was a tough old man (WWII combat decorated) but he complained about the jarring impact this had on his arthritic body. I can only imagine the physical pain these traffic devices have needlessly caused to our elderly population.

When things like this are done by supposedly smart well educated people it’s clear to see that some decisions that have been made by Norman leadership have not been well thought out. It also shows us on matters such as this how great common sense still trumps any amount of education or credentials

Arthritic old bodies should not be driving vehicles. Sorry.

People used to drive 40 mph through the streets in Chautauqua. I remember a child being killed by a collision once a few years ago. The traffic calming mechanisms are a good idea. They also have the intrinsic benefit of saying, "This is a nice neighborhood, we have nice things here, please slow down." The traffic circles are even better at that. I always thought that the circle on East Main would be a great place for urban development (especially if/when/ever the Porter Avenue streetscape becomes a vibrant eastside activity spine) - I wish the City of Norman would actively pursue redevelopment along there.

I know of the one on East Main... a few located inside neighborhoods/developments, remind me did the City implement more of the circles or was that just talk?