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  1. #51

    Default Re: Will Rogers World Airport

    Quote Originally Posted by catch22 View Post
    If hub to hub flights are oversold, or a flight cancels between them, the computer system will automatically protect passengers on to the next best routing. That often ends up being OKC because we have nonstop service to every domestic hub.

    Some are online:
    IAH-OKC-ORD
    ORD-OKC-LAX
    CLE-OKC-IAH

    some are interline:
    DEN-OKC-DFW(AA)

    Etc.
    Yup, and between that and Dallas, we can get most places in a reasonable period of time. That's one of the reasons headquarters in DC let my husband work from OKC.

  2. #52

    Default Re: Will Rogers World Airport

    Quote Originally Posted by Tier2City View Post
    Thanks - Kai Tak it ain't!
    True - WRWA is nice and open. Short of a significant malfunction - like a wing falling off or bad bird strike - crashing at Will Rogers would be pretty darn embarrassing. Even if an air trafficker died of boredom there'd rarely be an excuse to mess up.

  3. #53

    Default Re: Will Rogers World Airport

    In response to the comment about an airport not wanting to be next door to the FAA, I personally think that would be a plus. The big hubs are heavily regulated and the last thing they want to do is cut corners. By virtue of being a hub they are under constant scrutiny and having seminars and training sessions right next door would give them easy access and opportunity to keep up to date. Husband regularly deals with airports in mid sized cities and some of them are woefully ignorant of FAA regulations. Very embarrassing when something happens to put a spotlight on it. A lot of GA airports (or rather pilots/charter might try to skirt inspections or maintenance requirements but the airports are usually more ignorant than doing something intentional. At least that's what I gather from listening to my husband. He might disagree.

  4. #54

    Default Re: Will Rogers World Airport

    Quote Originally Posted by venture View Post
    1) OKC really isn't a small market at all. The DOT ranks airports as Large Hub, Medium Hub, Small Hub, Non Hub, and Non-Primary. OKC is literally right on the cutoff from Medium Hub to Small Hub (its rated a small hub). What are examples of Medium Hubs? Omaha, Buffalo, and Burbank. OKC isn't more than a couple hundred thousand pax behind those cities.

    2) The FAA training center located on field means nothing. To think that is a reason OKC hasn't seen more substantial service is just foolish.

    3) Geography is really the only thing OKC has for it in the hub making department. The local market though isn't big enough for the size of operation some dream about.

    When it comes to direct flight options...21 destinations have nonstop flights. We've been through the O&D numbers before and pretty much all the markets that can warrant nonstop service has it today. If we look at the latest information from the DOT on market size there aren't many opportunities left with the current air service out there.

    Largest market not served: Seattle. 171 pax per day. That's total per day...so 85 each way. You could maybe convince Alaska to drop one 737 in per day if they are able to get all of the O&D. However, what good is it for a new airline - who is a hub and spoke carrier - to bring just one flight a day?

    The rest of the batch of cities are those without service that have more pax than the city with the lowest O&D numbers from OKC - Cleveland.

    San Diego, CA 150
    San Antonio, TX 144
    Boston, MA (Metro Area) 125
    Miami, FL (Metro Area) 124
    Kansas City, MO 110
    Austin, TX 110
    Nashville, TN 93
    Sacramento, CA 90
    New Orleans, LA 87
    Tampa, FL (Metro Area) 87
    Charlotte, NC 72
    • San Diego's primary airlines are WN and AS. If AS won't do SEA, they really won't do SAN. WN has no problem feeding pax through PHX, LAS, and DEN.
    • BOS's primary airline is JetBlue and even then the Embraer 190 is still going to be too much airplane for the route.
    • MIA has an AA hub but the most it could reasonably be would be a high cost RJ.
    • MCI just got axed by Southwest and they are the only substantial airline there.
    • AUS is like OKC, just more grown up with a few extra airlines but no one that would jump at offering the route.
    • BNA has WN as the dominant airline and it might work as a connecting option, but they won't compete with the new ATL route.
    • SMF doesn't have a large dominant airline and the route would only support an RJ.
    • MSY has WN as the larger one, but there aren't enough pax for a 737.
    • TPA we'll probably see PIE (St. Petersburg) added by Allegiant at some point with a couple flights a week.
    • CLT we'll probably see AA/US add as the hub integration progresses to offer more options, but not because of a strong local market.

    I've said it before and will say it again, much of the routes are not feasible with the current airlines out there. The most logical option would be to find a regional operator to offer a point to point service to airports like MCI, AUS, BNA, MSY, etc. using the Dash 8 Q400 or ATR 72-600s. They seat plenty and have lower costs than the full size jets. It might also be possible to look at the ERJ 170/190 family for a couple of the others. However, this would all be based on local demand on the routes with limited, if any, connecting traffic opportunity.

    I'm not really sure what people expect. The market is what it is. It isn't the smallest, but it isn't the largest. It is a good and healthy mid-sized market.
    The market is not the size of the metro-but the surrounding rural/smaller cities as well. OKC is about 1/3 of state population, but besides that, covers very little else. Family in southern OK (Davis area) would always go to DFW first - more options/cheaper. Not to mention Tulsa, and Witchita. As these other cities have different options, so they are viable alternatives instead of going to OKC - evern Amarillo for western OK. The 'hinterland' is very small for OKC - Tulsa serves an area just as large because population density is greater in the eastern part of the state. Though the growth of the airport in NW Arkansas has decreased this.

    As to the FAA. I use to fly with the ANG C-130's out of OKC. Some of the pilots came from around the country. We had one who communted from Boston, as an example. Most were also airline pilots. To a man, they were under the opinion that the FAA presence was the issue - beginning and end, nothing else was (besides being a major destination) as important. Technically, I don't think it really matters ... but perception is what these pilots dealt with (I guess heard from their airlines). Perhaps that is changing ... it has been at least 10 years, but they were pretty convinced.

    Direct flights ... for buisness there has to be at least 2 a day. Since 911 this has not been as much a issue as it takes to long to process at the terminals. But in the past, flying out in the morning and back late at night was not uncommon for buisness. With the increase in processing time, I will drive if it is under 600 miles (and I currently live in the Atlanta area).

  5. #55

    Default Re: Will Rogers World Airport

    No offense to pilots but they really do not know what they are talking about. I get asked by pilots once or twice a week how horrible it is to work at OKC because how close the FAA is.

    My answer is the same: we very rarely get audited or observed by the FAA, and when they do it's a typical pencil whipping like everything else is in this industry.

  6. Default Re: Will Rogers World Airport

    Quote Originally Posted by TAlan CB View Post
    The market is not the size of the metro-but the surrounding rural/smaller cities as well.
    This is what we in the industry call catchment area and we've discussed many times over in the commercial aviation thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by TAlan CB View Post
    OKC is about 1/3 of state population, but besides that, covers very little else. Family in southern OK (Davis area) would always go to DFW first - more options/cheaper. Not to mention Tulsa, and Witchita. As these other cities have different options, so they are viable alternatives instead of going to OKC - evern Amarillo for western OK. The 'hinterland' is very small for OKC - Tulsa serves an area just as large because population density is greater in the eastern part of the state. Though the growth of the airport in NW Arkansas has decreased this.
    Every airport is going to have a restricted geographic area they can serve. The OKC catchment area is not terrible by any means, so I really don't know what is being argued here. The market is being served to the extent airlines are comfortable with right now. Loads aren't completely full and growth is flat. I don't know what more, people expect. As far as different options...that is debatable.

    Excluding DFW, because lets be real - you can't compare second tier markets with major connecting hubs that have artificially inflated levels of service due to the connecting traffic. If someone in the OKC area is going to gripe because they can fly nonstop from Dallas to Des Moines but not from OKC, they are a moron. So looking at the others:

    Wichita
    Allegiant - LAS, IWA, and LAX.
    American/American Eagle - DFW, ORD
    Delta - ATL and MSP.
    Southwest - MDW, DAL, LAS.
    United - DEN, IAH, LAX, ORD.

    So there, there is individual different service offered by G4 to markets west but you can still get to them nonstop from OKC. The other airlines all offer the same markets from OKC (plus some) so there is no real advantage destination wise. It'll come down to drive time and ticket value.

    Amarillo
    American Eagle - DFW
    Southwest - DAL, DEN, LAS
    United - DEN, IAH

    No advantage over OKC unless they are closer and the fares are cheaper.

    Tulsa
    Allegiant - SFB
    American - ORD, DAL, MIA
    Delta - ATL, DTW, MSP, SLC
    Southwest - MDW, DAL, DEN, HOU, LAS, PHX, STL
    United - DEN, IAH, ORD, EWR, IAD

    Tulsa has only one market not served from OKC and that's MIA which is seasonal.

    The main point I'm showing with all of this, the core OKC catchment area is going to have more advantage over competing regional airports based on service hands down. The statement that they have "different options" is probably grossly exaggerated due to lack of knowledge of what's available here. With that, drive distance and fare will also play into a decision. Do I expect people north of Ponca City to go to OKC over ICT? Not really. I think its going to be a pretty even trade off. Just like I don't expect people near the Arkansas boarder to go to TUL over XNA which has a very respectable level of service (thanks Walmart).

    Quote Originally Posted by TAlan CB View Post
    Direct flights ... for buisness there has to be at least 2 a day. Since 911 this has not been as much a issue as it takes to long to process at the terminals. But in the past, flying out in the morning and back late at night was not uncommon for buisness. With the increase in processing time, I will drive if it is under 600 miles (and I currently live in the Atlanta area).
    Processing times depend on the airport. I won't drive if I can fly to a destination. OKC's security line is never a major issue for me, not saying it never backs up. I can't imagine deciding to drive if it is under 600 miles. That's essentially saying "if I have to go to Detroit from Atlanta, I'll drive instead of taking a flight." I just can't think of any rational reason for that even with delays associated with a large hub. If you are traveling on a budget that is one thing, but for time reasons - you are wasting a day just driving one way.

  7. #57

    Default Re: Will Rogers World Airport

    Processing times depend on the airport. I won't drive if I can fly to a destination. OKC's security line is never a major issue for me, not saying it never backs up. I can't imagine deciding to drive if it is under 600 miles. That's essentially saying "if I have to go to Detroit from Atlanta, I'll drive instead of taking a flight." I just can't think of any rational reason for that even with delays associated with a large hub. If you are traveling on a budget that is one thing, but for time reasons - you are wasting a day just driving one way.[/QUOTE]

    Company pays for flights if I want, they also pay for my car payments and gas. Working from home, lot of time on the phone - really hard to have conference calls on plane. Airports expect you to be at check-in 1 hour prior, instead I schedule my day the way I want it. And I don't have to pay for car when I get to destination. Save my budget for more travel, and can make several site stops on the way in my district if I feel like it. Win, win, win. Depends on what you do with your time. Population density in the east makes this a much easier choice. Doing it for years, took me a while to realize, when I did life got a lot easier.

  8. #58

    Default Re: Will Rogers World Airport

    Quote Originally Posted by TAlan CB View Post
    ... - really hard to have conference calls on plane. ...
    I hope this does not imply you are on conference calls while driving

  9. #59

    Default Re: Will Rogers World Airport

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
    I hope this does not imply you are on conference calls while driving
    Serious ... you can't drive and talk?

  10. #60

    Default Re: Will Rogers World Airport

    Quote Originally Posted by TAlan CB View Post
    Serious ... you can't drive and talk?
    Most studies show people tend not to be great at doing both at the same time

  11. Default Re: Will Rogers World Airport

    Quote Originally Posted by TAlan CB View Post
    Company pays for flights if I want, they also pay for my car payments and gas. Working from home, lot of time on the phone - really hard to have conference calls on plane. Airports expect you to be at check-in 1 hour prior, instead I schedule my day the way I want it. And I don't have to pay for car when I get to destination. Save my budget for more travel, and can make several site stops on the way in my district if I feel like it. Win, win, win. Depends on what you do with your time. Population density in the east makes this a much easier choice. Doing it for years, took me a while to realize, when I did life got a lot easier.
    Sure you can't conduct conference calls on planes, thank god, but that time can also be used for non-phone time. What happens during a conference call when you are required to reference some document you either have with you or on a laptop? You can't really reference that information while driving. It depends what you do as well. When you throw an additional condition of having multiple stops, then you aren't really just doing a direct 600 mile drive - so that changes things greatly. That would be going from having a business appointment in St. Louis and deciding to drive, but also have additional customer stops in Tulsa, Springfield, and Rolla. You are obviously not going to fly it when you can knock out all of those stops in one swoop.

    Again, you are modifying what you originally implied so you can't apply the same logic to a multi-stop regional jaunt that you can to a limited direct trip to one location.

  12. #62

    Default Re: Will Rogers World Airport

    This is a positive new program starting at the airport. This has been common in hospitals and nursing homes for some time.

    Therapy dogs help weary travelers at Oklahoma City's Will Rogers World Airport | News OK

  13. #63

    Default Re: Will Rogers World Airport

    Quote Originally Posted by ljbab728 View Post
    This is a positive new program starting at the airport. This has been common in hospitals and nursing homes for some time.

    Therapy dogs help weary travelers at Oklahoma City's Will Rogers World Airport | News OK
    It's cool... but as a frequent traveler, my stress isn't in Oklahoma, it's typically in the hubs I have to transit through. Maybe people deplaning in Oklahoma City would benefit... or maybe those that just hate flying, period?

  14. #64

    Default Re: Will Rogers World Airport

    Quote Originally Posted by cafeboeuf View Post
    It's cool... but as a frequent traveler, my stress isn't in Oklahoma, it's typically in the hubs I have to transit through.
    True, but often that stress starts here by delayed flights when you know it will cause you a tight or missed connection. It's not going to change the world but it's a nice touch by Will Rogers.

  15. Default Re: Will Rogers World Airport

    Most of my frustrations with travel surround the OKC/DFW American connections. Seems like they always seem to put the broken airplane on that one. 100% of the time, either going or coming, I get a flight cancelled or significantly delayed on that leg. AA says, "we have an on-time rating of 75% on that"....except they think that's good. I look at it and say, Uh that's a C...you're happy with a C? How about working that up to at least a B, or preferably an A. Maybe if we had something newer than those POS MD-80s, we wouldn't be breaking down all the time.

  16. #66

    Default Re: Will Rogers World Airport

    75% on time is pretty good. Considering 85% is almost near perfect.

    When you are dealing with 4,000 flights a day, across 800 or so machines, which each have hundreds of systems that work independently of each other, but need to be working perfectly in sync with each other. Count in the uncontrollable weather across the globe, and dealing with traffic. 85% is about the best you can realistically achieve, not 100.

    if we consider 85% to be perfect, 75 is 88% of 85. An 88 is a pretty good score for a crappy day.
    75% is still an amazing feat, when you think of how many people and machines need to be working flawlessly to make just one flight on-time and successful.

  17. #67

    Default Re: Will Rogers World Airport

    While I can see calling 85% doing well, I think making that the mark of perfection is a bit too far.

  18. Default Re: Will Rogers World Airport

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
    While I can see calling 85% doing well, I think making that the mark of perfection is a bit too far.
    Hawaiian typically always has the best ontime performance in the industry - shocker I know. The latest figures have them running around 92.8% on time and only once cancelled flight for January. If we go more reasonable at a mainland based major carrier we have Alaska at #2 at 87.8% ontime. The industry average? Around 67%.

    Is 85% the mark of perfection? Maybe not, but it is pretty darn close. Expecting anything significantly higher than that is just exposing a lack of understanding of the industry and the complexities around it.

  19. #69

    Default Re: Will Rogers World Airport

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
    Kind of hard for me to remember the old way, the only feature I don't think I will ever forget was the old security checkpoint



    Several parts were featured in this old video
    I watched that entire video, thanks for posting it. The Stage Center was prominent a few times.

  20. #70

    Default Re: Will Rogers World Airport

    Quote Originally Posted by bombermwc View Post
    Most of my frustrations with travel surround the OKC/DFW American connections. Seems like they always seem to put the broken airplane on that one. 100% of the time, either going or coming, I get a flight cancelled or significantly delayed on that leg. AA says, "we have an on-time rating of 75% on that"....except they think that's good. I look at it and say, Uh that's a C...you're happy with a C? How about working that up to at least a B, or preferably an A. Maybe if we had something newer than those POS MD-80s, we wouldn't be breaking down all the time.
    Huh? I for one am gonna really miss the S80s. There's no better Y class ride out there (at least on AA) than the AB side in MCE. Was even better until they added an extra row - those seats almost felt lie-flat. Too bad the planes with 2-3 seating have gone by the wayside.

  21. Default Re: Will Rogers World Airport

    ^I agree with no1cub17. The MD 80s are one of the roomiest planes out there with enough space under the seat in front to stretch your legs out (the other ones being Southwest's 737s). They are also a fairly quiet ride being a rear-engined aircraft. And it's true, at one point AA was having some trouble a few years back with some fines and maintenance issues forcing flights to be cancelled, but AA had plenty of company. Those issues have been taken care of now and for the most part the M80s are flying on-time. In fact I flew in those twice a few summers back without any problems between OKC and DFW.

  22. Default Re: Will Rogers World Airport

    That video is awesome. It's hilarious to hear them tout some of the Pei Plan that we know lament so much. So many items that were so "new and exciting" in the 60's, that sat stagnant so long....ie Century Center. Helicopters landing at the Myriad...LOL! Too bad we lost so many jems in the short-sighted plans. And to think what would have happened had the oil bust and savings and loan collapse hadn't happened when they did...and as a double whammy.

    Anyway, with the MD-80, what I hate is how often those that AA operates, break down. Personally, I always found them to be quite loud. I've probably been tainted over the years from bad experiences...just being my luck with them. United hasn't done me much better. But for me, Delta and Southwest have always been great. But I'm perfectly willing to say that other have the exact opposite experience so to each his own I guess.

  23. #73
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    Default Re: Will Rogers World Airport

    Makes you wonder what will be lamented in 50 years looking back on videos from the first couple decades of this century...

  24. #74

    Default Re: Will Rogers World Airport

    Quote Originally Posted by shawnw View Post
    Makes you wonder what will be lamented in 50 years looking back on videos from the first couple decades of this century...
    Stage Center fanboys in 3..2..1

  25. #75

    Default Re: Will Rogers World Airport

    Just saw this from the Economic Development Trust:

    Met with officials at OKC ARINC. Company has been bought by Rockwell Collins, who plans to divest the Oklahoma City operation. Assisting ARINC in community support for future ownership.

    Oklahoma City, Oklahoma

    ARINC’s Oklahoma City office serves three rapidly expanding markets: modernization of military aircraft, upgrading of commercial and general aviation airframes, and industrial and systems engineering services to Department of Defense and government agencies. To provide comprehensive services for those markets, the office has state-of-the-art facilities and resources:
    Aircraft Modification and Operations Center (AMOC)—an 81,000-square-foot facility at Oklahoma City’s Will Rogers World Airport, featuring the largest commercial aircraft hangar in the OKC area
    Oklahoma City Laboratories—ARINC's center for engineering services in nondestructive inspection, metrology (precision dimensional inspection), metallurgical examination, mechanical testing, corrosion research, electrical engineering and testing, and hydraulic filter testing

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