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  1. Default Freedom of speech, or government sponsored/established religion?

    This is as scary as Sharia law...

    From an LA Times Editorial Today:

    At some point, the cheerleading squad at Kountze High School in Texas began inscribing the banners at football games with Bible verses such as "I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me!" To the cheerleaders' way of thinking, the banners are a way of exercising their freedom of speech, and a judge has at least tentatively — and wrongly — agreed.


    The school superintendent in Kountze had told the cheerleaders to drop the religious messages, but Hardin County District Judge Steve Thomas said last week that the superintendent's order appeared to violate a 2007 Texas law that requires schools to treat a student's religious expression the same as any other viewpoint. He issued a temporary injunction against the school district until the case goes to trial.


    Certainly, students are entitled to express their personal viewpoints, religious or not, in many school-related settings. They can exchange religious views with other students in the cafeteria or form Christian clubs and pray with one another. Individual students can speak up in class on the subject at hand and give opinions that are informed by their faith. But a cheerleading squad is a school-sponsored organization that is supposed to be equally welcoming to all students of all beliefs; the cheerleaders wear school uniforms and perform at official school functions representing their school. If the word "school" seems to appear frequently in the previous sentence, it's for a reason: There's no way of getting around the impression that the banners have the school's seal of approval.


    Thomas apparently did not take into account a 2000 U.S. Supreme Court decision that found it unconstitutional for a school to allow a student to offer a prayer over the public-address system before a football game. The prayer might express the student's personal religious belief, but its recitation via the school's equipment at a school function implies school endorsement.


    The mother of one of the cheerleaders, who was among those to challenge the school district's prohibition on the religious banners, says that everyone at the school is in complete agreement with the Christian sentiments and that, if someone isn't, people would know about it because the community is so small and close-knit. But that's not the issue. Anyone who might be bothered by the banners — and someone did complain about them, which prompted the superintendent's decision — would probably feel especially intimidated in an atmosphere in which the vast majority of parents assume that everyone is of like mind. The very point of freedom from government establishment of religion is that the majority — even a really big majority — does not get to set the religious agenda for others in a government-sponsored setting.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Freedom of speech, or government sponsored/established religion?

    I wonder if my old attorney, Michael Salem, has seen this article? Ca-ching!

  3. #3

    Default Re: Freedom of speech, or government sponsored/established religion?

    "everyone at the school is in complete agreement with the Christian sentiments" If that's the case then change the school to a private Christian school and quit using taxpayer money.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Freedom of speech, or government sponsored/established religion?

    Why do I feel as if nobody would be making a peep if the banners had slogans from Islam, Wicca or Ásatrú?
    ["We will metaphorically annihilate our opponents in this sporting contest like a blow from Thor's hammer"]

    If Michael Salem got involved, could the resulting litigation be referred to as The Salem Bitch Trials?

    Eye of newt, and toe of frog,
    Wool of bat, and tongue of dog,
    Adder's fork, and blind-worm's sting,
    Lizard's leg, and howlet's wing,--
    For a charm of powerful trouble,
    Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.
    Go Team Go, smite the opponent
    Treat the [field/court/diamond/their ass] as if you own it.

  5. Default Re: Freedom of speech, or government sponsored/established religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by RadicalModerate View Post
    Why do I feel as if nobody would be making a peep if the banners had slogans from Islam, Wicca or Ásatrú?
    Puh-lease! If that was tried anywhere, especially in texas, those kids would be run out of town on a rail. Of course, now that Mormonism is widely accepted, maybe they would be happy with signs proclaiming their allegiance to Elohim?

  6. #6

    Default Re: Freedom of speech, or government sponsored/established religion?

    Gimme an E . . . (E!)
    Gimme an L . . . (L!)
    Gimme an O . . . (O!)
    Gimme an H . . . (H!)
    Gimme an I . . . (I!)
    Gimme an M . . . (M!)

    What's that spell?
    How the hell do we know . . .
    We're from Texas.

    BTW: Is Kountze High School pronounced "COUNT-Zee" or . . . ?
    I can't be sure because Texas is "like a whole 'nother country."

    And why is the LA Times getting involved in this? Don't they have enough local problems to publicize?

    This just in:
    The East Chambers High School football team in Winnie, Texas--who are known currently as the Buccaneers and who will host the Kountze Lions in tomorrow night's Gridiron Epic--have decided to change their name to The Daniels so that the contest will be remembered through the ages as The Lions in the Daniel's Den. The ACLU isn't sure whether to move against East Chambers for this blatant vandalism to the wall between chuch and state. Plus they are still scratching their collective heads over the "Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin" that someone spray-painted on it.

  7. Default Re: Freedom of speech, or government sponsored/established religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by RadicalModerate View Post
    Gimme an E . . . (E!)
    Gimme an L . . . (L!)
    Gimme an O . . . (O!)
    Gimme an H . . . (H!)
    Gimme an I . . . (I!)
    Gimme an M . . . (M!)

    What's that spell?
    How the hell do we know . . .
    We're from Texas.

    BTW: Is Kountze High School pronounced "COUNT-Zee" or . . . ?
    I can't be sure because Texas is "like a whole 'nother country."

    And why is the LA Times getting involved in this? Don't they have enough local problems to publicize?

    This just in:
    The East Chambers High School football team in Winnie, Texas--who are known currently as the Buccaneers and who will host the Kountze Lions in tomorrow night's Gridiron Epic--have decided to change their name to The Daniels so that the contest will be remembered through the ages as The Lions in the Daniel's Den. The ACLU isn't sure whether to move against East Chambers for this blatant vandalism to the wall between chuch and state. Plus they are still scratching their collective heads over the "Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin" that someone spray-painted on it.
    Will you please run for office, so I can put one of your signs in my yard? Or a bumper sticker on my car?

  8. #8

    Default Re: Freedom of speech, or government sponsored/established religion?

    In my continuing efforts to run FROM office, please allow me a moment to apologize for typing The Lions in the Daniel's Den rather than The Lions in The Daniels' Den. I was more than 47% correct in this matter, but I was still wrong and I will admit it. (i channelled Howard Cosell and he advised me that this was the right--in the sense of correct, with no political connotations--thing to do.)

    I must also admit that I find Sharia Law far more scary than any of this.
    (I think that 14 year old girl recovering from the Taliban Thug inflicted head wound would agree)

    I wonder if the hallowed halls of Kountze High are festooned with Halloween decorations . . .
    (i once had an exchange student from Ethiopia who was terrified and confused by them at a different location . . .)

    It's probably a good thing that they apparently have two high schools in Winnie, Texas:
    Can you imagine a team called The Winnie Buccaneers?

    They, The Winnie Buccaneers, could either be accused of "hubris" (on account of labeling themselves as WIN-nie)
    or of being "Whiney"--like LA Times Editorial Writers--except with a silent H.

    (Or they, again, The Winnie Buccaneers, could have a horse mascot with a bandanna, a swash-buckle, and an eye patch.
    Don't think about it . . . It is not a valuable investment of intellectual resources . . . =)

    Oh! (almost forgot)
    The Good News in all of this is that--as a result of all of "the controversy" over what should be "common sense"--both East Chambers (Winnie) and Kountzie (Kountzie) have updated their playgrounds to include inclusive missing links to this site in the name of diversity.

    http://www.sliderule.ca/

    They have also joined hands in an effort to produce an app for diagramming sentences . . .
    The ACLU is questioning the use of the label "Kum-Buy-Yah" as the optional audio running behind the app, as are several filling stations scattered throughout Fly-OverLand just off the Interstates . . . and rumor has it that the Free-Range Rastafarians have gotten involved in the claim as well.

  9. Default Re: Freedom of speech, or government sponsored/established religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by RadicalModerate View Post
    In my continuing efforts to run FROM office, please allow me a moment to apologize for typing The Lions in the Daniel's Den rather than The Lions in The Daniels' Den. I was more than 47% correct in this matter, but I was still wrong and I will admit it. (i channelled Howard Cosell and he advised me that this was the right--in the sense of correct, with no political connotations--thing to do.)

    I must also admit that I find Sharia Law far more scary than any of this.
    (I think that 14 year old girl recovering from the Taliban Thug inflicted head wound would agree)

    I wonder if the hallowed halls of Kountze High are festooned with Halloween decorations . . .
    (i once had an exchange student from Ethiopia who was terrified and confused by them at a different location . . .)

    It's probably a good thing that they apparently have two high schools in Winnie, Texas:
    Can you imagine a team called The Winnie Buccaneers?

    They, The Winnie Buccaneers, could either be accused of "hubris" (on account of labeling themselves as WIN-nie)
    or of being "Whiney"--like LA Times Editorial Writers--except with a silent H.

    (Or they, again, The Winnie Buccaneers, could have a horse mascot with a bandanna, a swash-buckle, and an eye patch.
    Don't think about it . . . It is not a valuable investment of intellectual resources . . . =)

    Oh! (almost forgot)
    The Good News in all of this is that--as a result of all of "the controversy" over what should be "common sense"--both East Chambers (Winnie) and Kountzie (Kountzie) have updated their playgrounds to include inclusive missing links to this site in the name of diversity.

    Eric's Slide Rule Site

    They have also joined hands in an effort to produce an app for diagramming sentences . . .
    The ACLU is questioning the use of the label "Kum-Buy-Yah" as the optional audio running behind the app, as are several filling stations scattered throughout Fly-OverLand just off the Interstates . . . and rumor has it that the Free-Range Rastafarians have gotten involved in the claim as well.
    Without doing too deep a dive in your comments (for fear of the bends), I would Hazzard a guess (like the county in Georgia from whence the Duke boys came - you know, like that long lost pol David Duke), that the Kountze High halls are not festooned in Halloween regalia, unless their colors are Orange and Black, which is doubtful, as they are probably silver and gold (or frankincense and myrrh). I make that guess based on the fact that my fellow Oklahomans (mostly God loathing Baptists), are just now loosening up to the idea that you can celebrate Halloween and still go to church on Sunday without fear of being smited (smote?).

    And the reason I don;t fear Sharia law, is because I do have the sense that God gave a goose, and I understand that it would/could never be implemented here (thank you 2nd amendment/open/concealed carry).

  10. #10

    Default Re: Freedom of speech, or government sponsored/established religion?

    Re: "The Bends" . . .
    It is my philosophy . . . based upon untold eons of evolutionary adaptionalism (and 60 years experience) . . . that it is good to be Flexible . . . and bad to be Spineless . . . with all due apologies to those thin-skinned jellyfish in the demographic.

    Re: The Rest o' the . . . Stuff:
    Where is Honey Boo Boo? Now that We The People o' The United States of America (a.k.a. The American People) need her to do her Latter Day Version . . . of either Shirley Temple or that Wizard of Oz (Fake Kansas Kid . . . Judy whatever?) and ramble into that Geographical Sector o' SortaSouthEastishTexas and set 'em straight on whut's right n' rong?

    Alternatively, she (Honey Boo Boo) could wheel up to The Editorial Offices of The LA Timesand do that beloved cross-cultural impression made famous by that kid back in the day and say: "Wucthutalkin'bout"?

    This accurately reflects my opinion of modern day opinion writers, specifically those employed by "The LA Times" . . .
    (jeez/geez/oy vay/hay caramba!)

    Oh: Sharia Law is still way scarier. =)

    P.S.: you don't get the bends from diving too deep. you get the bends from surfacing too fast. and then there are those pesky jellyfish and sharks.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Freedom of speech, or government sponsored/established religion?

    What a bunch of Kountze. With any luck, they'll have a brutal homecoming with their ancient rival, the Lions.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Freedom of speech, or government sponsored/established religion?

    This is as scary as Sharia law...

    If you think that is scary as Sharia law, you clearly have never been female. Come on - no comparison. If we were under Sharia law, those girls wouldn't even be cheering - or in school. When I see the anti Christian sentiment expressed with such hostility, I generally just chalk it up to religious intolerance and a thoughtless view of how the world would be without the social services provided by those of the christian faith. Most of our strongest social service values and institutions come from a christian foundation, including some/most of our most respected ivy league universities. In this nation, the christians led the war against slavery. The "social gospel" led the war against hunger, disease, child labor,charities, hospitals, etc. To this day, the majority of private welfare agencies are affiliated with the churches. The twelve step program has helped countless alcoholics, in large part by adopting christian dogma and adapting it when the substance abuser is non christian. I could go on about the good works of the christians but will stop because no matter what good they do, there are many who aren't just nonbelievers, they are anti-christian to the point where they think any other faith or ideology - no matter how backward or cruel, is preferable.

    I don't mean to be on the attack but honestly, to say that letting cheerleaders put christian verses on signs in a football game is is as bad as sharia law is a pretty hard pill for this non christian female to swallow. That is not seeing the forest for the trees. If you think that was a bad call to let them have the verses, fine. If you think it is as bad as Sharia law, I hope you will sit down and look at your educated mothers, sisters, daughters and wives/girlfriends, consider how they would be treated under sharia law. If you still don't "get it," or understand how profoundly offensive that is to western women, I won't try to change your mind. I wouldn't be nearly so surprised if someone with a fundamentalist bent had a tendency to minimize the impact of laws that are so oppressive to women. I AM surprised that you would so trivialize such a system of "justice."

  13. #13

    Default Re: Freedom of speech, or government sponsored/established religion?

    Agreed, this is not as terrible as Sharia. However, cutting a bit of slack and permitting this nonsense opens the door to any and all religious presence in what should be a secular milieu. This includes Sharia.

    You Christian folks sure do seem to hate secularism in government, but you should at least recognize that this secularism isn't just designed to keep Christian influence out of services that everybody should be able to share in; it seeks to keep out those other religions that would make you feel uncomfortable. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't vote to ban Sharia law from being considered in legal situations, then sit idly by while a judge denies a transgender person's name change request, citing Biblical justification for this denial.

    If you had to see Islamic influence everywhere you went, you probably wouldn't be very comfortable. That's how the rest of us feel when we have to be subjected to Christian influence.

    Christians have done a lot of good things. But if you put the benefits and the detriments on a scale, I'm afraid the latter would sit considerably lower.

    Source: history

  14. #14

    Default Re: Freedom of speech, or government sponsored/established religion?

    You Christian folks sure do seem to hate secularism in government, but you should at least recognize that this secularism isn't just designed to keep Christian influence out of services that everybody should be able to share in; it seeks to keep out those other religions that would make you feel uncomfortable. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't vote to ban Sharia law from being considered in legal situations, then sit idly by while a judge denies a transgender person's name change request, citing Biblical justification for this denial.
    Perhaps you don't mean me but if you are, please be reminded that I am not christian.

    But that being said, I have absolutely no problem with cheerleaders having verses on their football signs, kids having clubs to celebrate being christians or jews, saying a prayer before they open congress, nativity scenes on public property, etc. I just don't see the slipperly slope that is going to lead to losing our rights if we let the christians and jews - both of whom have overwhelmingly shown themselves to be not only civilized but lawabiding - practice ritualistic remnants of their faith.

    I don't care that they thank god for this or that. I don't care if they celebrate Christmas. All I care about is how they are going to "actually" affect my life. And what we have seen from history is NOT that they are heading in a path towards female enslavement, returning blacks to slavery, etc. What we've seen is that they have "evolved" continually in the past centuries to the point where they might be irritating but they simply aren't dangerous and, in the main, have contributed substantially to the public good in terms of social services and caring for the poor and otherwise weak.

    As for the muslims, again, I have no problem if they want to pray in public (just stay out of the street), wear their hair scarves (I love them - need to get one) and carry on in public as good citizens who have in sharp contrast to so many of the shallow secular among us, a sense of spirituality and connection with their god. I respect them as I respect the jews and the christians.

    As for the name change and the judge relying on the bible - come on - that is not going to stand up because our law doesn't let it. So many anti christians are treating outliers as if they represent the status of the law. They aren't. I don't see any difference in that sort of religious hysteria than a christian convinced the courts are going to cram sharia law down our throats. Let's all calm down and be a little tolerant.

    And to that point, I just have to say I am utterly confounded as to why so many are just so nasty about religion. Honestly, take away the good works of our religious folk and think about what would be left and who would suffer. History does NOT show that they have been a larger blight than benefit. On the contrary.

    I mentioned in another post (yesterday, I think) that my husband had just gotten back from Turkey. As most of us know, it is a predominately muslim nation but very secular (much the way Iran was, back in the day). While there, he noted just how polite and kind most of them were. In short, there is a vast difference between islam and islam extremists. There is little comparison between the two. And to that point, I return to my original point that this freakout about benign christian public practices makes no sense to me. I can't imagine being so intolerant that I feel the need to try to take that away from them. It brings them peace and is a reflection of their spirituality. It doesn't hurt anyone who doesn't just have a chip on their shoulder.

    There are people of the christian faith and then there are scary fanatics - and the fanatics aren't winning, no matter how freaked out the anti christians get. When people say cheerleaders putting bibilcal verses on football signs is as bad as sharia law, that tells you that they have completely gone off the rails. We can be tolerant, or we can be like the taliban and hate any religious practice we don't share. Live and let live, for the goddess' sake.

  15. Default Re: Freedom of speech, or government sponsored/established religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by PennyQuilts View Post
    If you think that is scary as Sharia law, you clearly have never been female. Come on - no comparison. If we were under Sharia law, those girls wouldn't even be cheering - or in school. When I see the anti Christian sentiment expressed with such hostility, I generally just chalk it up to religious intolerance and a thoughtless view of how the world would be without the social services provided by those of the christian faith. Most of our strongest social service values and institutions come from a christian foundation, including some/most of our most respected ivy league universities. In this nation, the christians led the war against slavery. The "social gospel" led the war against hunger, disease, child labor,charities, hospitals, etc. To this day, the majority of private welfare agencies are affiliated with the churches. The twelve step program has helped countless alcoholics, in large part by adopting christian dogma and adapting it when the substance abuser is non christian. I could go on about the good works of the christians but will stop because no matter what good they do, there are many who aren't just nonbelievers, they are anti-christian to the point where they think any other faith or ideology - no matter how backward or cruel, is preferable.

    I don't mean to be on the attack but honestly, to say that letting cheerleaders put christian verses on signs in a football game is is as bad as sharia law is a pretty hard pill for this non christian female to swallow. That is not seeing the forest for the trees. If you think that was a bad call to let them have the verses, fine. If you think it is as bad as Sharia law, I hope you will sit down and look at your educated mothers, sisters, daughters and wives/girlfriends, consider how they would be treated under sharia law. If you still don't "get it," or understand how profoundly offensive that is to western women, I won't try to change your mind. I wouldn't be nearly so surprised if someone with a fundamentalist bent had a tendency to minimize the impact of laws that are so oppressive to women. I AM surprised that you would so trivialize such a system of "justice."
    Penny, you are right. What I meant to say was this is as scary as people trying to impose Sharia law. Sharia law is brutal and evil. However, I feel being forced to be under any religious rule involuntarily, is as bad as any other.

    Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
    -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

  16. #16

    Default Re: Freedom of speech, or government sponsored/established religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by PennyQuilts View Post
    Perhaps you don't mean me but if you are, please be reminded that I am not christian.

    But that being said, I have absolutely no problem with cheerleaders having verses on their football signs, kids having clubs to celebrate being christians or jews, saying a prayer before they open congress, nativity scenes on public property, etc. I just don't see the slipperly slope that is going to lead to losing our rights if we let the christians and jews - both of whom have overwhelmingly shown themselves to be not only civilized but lawabiding - practice ritualistic remnants of their faith.

    I don't care that they thank god for this or that. I don't care if they celebrate Christmas. All I care about is how they are going to "actually" affect my life. And what we have seen from history is NOT that they are heading in a path towards female enslavement, returning blacks to slavery, etc. What we've seen is that they have "evolved" continually in the past centuries to the point where they might be irritating but they simply aren't dangerous and, in the main, have contributed substantially to the public good in terms of social services and caring for the poor and otherwise weak.

    As for the muslims, again, I have no problem if they want to pray in public (just stay out of the street), wear their hair scarves (I love them - need to get one) and carry on in public as good citizens who have in sharp contrast to so many of the shallow secular among us, a sense of spirituality and connection with their god. I respect them as I respect the jews and the christians.

    As for the name change and the judge relying on the bible - come on - that is not going to stand up because our law doesn't let it. So many anti christians are treating outliers as if they represent the status of the law. They aren't. I don't see any difference in that sort of religious hysteria than a christian convinced the courts are going to cram sharia law down our throats. Let's all calm down and be a little tolerant.

    And to that point, I just have to say I am utterly confounded as to why so many are just so nasty about religion. Honestly, take away the good works of our religious folk and think about what would be left and who would suffer. History does NOT show that they have been a larger blight than benefit. On the contrary.

    I mentioned in another post (yesterday, I think) that my husband had just gotten back from Turkey. As most of us know, it is a predominately muslim nation but very secular (much the way Iran was, back in the day). While there, he noted just how polite and kind most of them were. In short, there is a vast difference between islam and islam extremists. There is little comparison between the two. And to that point, I return to my original point that this freakout about benign christian public practices makes no sense to me. I can't imagine being so intolerant that I feel the need to try to take that away from them. It brings them peace and is a reflection of their spirituality. It doesn't hurt anyone who doesn't just have a chip on their shoulder.

    There are people of the christian faith and then there are scary fanatics - and the fanatics aren't winning, no matter how freaked out the anti christians get. When people say cheerleaders putting bibilcal verses on football signs is as bad as sharia law, that tells you that they have completely gone off the rails. We can be tolerant, or we can be like the taliban and hate any religious practice we don't share. Live and let live, for the goddess' sake.
    Having 'clubs' and whatnot is perfectly fine. There's never been any question regarding things like private prayer, extracurricular clubs, and so forth. At my high school they formed a circle around the flag pole in front of the school and held a prayer. These things aren't done in an official capacity, and as such they're not a violation. The OP story does get into the official capacity territory, and that's where the line is drawn. Just because you don't personally think it's a big deal doesn't mean it isn't blatant. I agree that it's nothing akin to Sharia. But values aside, it is an imposition of faith being sponsored by the school.

    History does indeed show that the Abrahamic religions have been detrimental to human progress. Has any good come out of them? Certainly. It can be used as a justification for doing good; then again, anything can be. But the bigger impact has come from the harm that's been brought, citing the very same faith as justification. There is no limit to what one is willing to do when one feels his actions are sanctioned by God. I'll spare you the laundry list.

    I apologize for assuming you were a Christian. While my post was in response to you, the 'you' references were really more general.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Freedom of speech, or government sponsored/established religion?

    I apologize for assuming you were a Christian. While my post was in response to you, the 'you' references were really more general.
    No worries. Happens all the time when I take up for them.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Freedom of speech, or government sponsored/established religion?

    I'm not sure what The Lesson is here . . .
    But it's a danged dark night in Kountze, TX . . .
    On account of the Mighty Posters Done Struck Out . . . (a'gin) . . .
    (last week they lost to the Newton Figs . . .)

    This is what happens when you muck around with Jeffersonian Deist/Animist Democracy with all them walls and so forth.
    I s'pose . . .

    East Chambers Football vs. Kountze Box Score 10/26/2012 - MaxPreps

    Perhaps the Biblical Verses printed on the banners that the team runs through and tears up on the way to the gridiron contest should be changed . . . Perhaps an LA Times Editorial writer can provide all of us with more cud to chew on . . . =)

  19. Default Re: Freedom of speech, or government sponsored/established religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by RadicalModerate View Post
    I'm not sure what The Lesson is here . . .
    But it's a danged dark night in Kountze, TX . . .
    On account of the Mighty Posters Done Struck Out . . . (a'gin) . . .
    (last week they lost to the Newton Figs . . .)

    This is what happens when you muck around with Jeffersonian Deist/Animist Democracy with all them walls and so forth.
    I s'pose . . .

    East Chambers Football vs. Kountze Box Score 10/26/2012 - MaxPreps

    Perhaps the Biblical Verses printed on the banners that the team runs through and tears up on the way to the gridiron contest should be changed . . . Perhaps an LA Times Editorial writer can provide all of us with more cud to chew on . . . =)
    Here you RM, just 'cause you're so concerned anout why a West coaster was interested in Texas schools!!!

    When Fairness 101 meets John 3:16 - San Antonio Express-News

    There are published opinions from Texas as well, from both sides...

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