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  1. #1

    Lincoln Area Oklahoma Sate Capitol Building Improvements

    Okay I searched for like 30mins and couldn't find a forum dedicated for this matter. If there is one please merge this thread.

    Oklahoma lawmakers tour state's crumbling Capitol | NewsOK.com

  2. #2

    Default Re: Oklahoma Sate Capitol Building Improvements

    Worrying about making the outside look like a new penny when the infrastructure is crumbling around them is just so freaking sad.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Oklahoma Sate Capitol Building Improvements

    Yeah and I hate this even more

    "Republicans controlled the House 67-31 at the time of the May 23 vote, and many were concerned about being looked upon as not being fiscal conservatives if they voted for the bond issue, especially in an election year."

    I mean really. Just do what you think you need to do and if you believe in fixing our state capitol building just fix the damn thing. Everything has to be about politics.(Ironically speaking about a building where politics are discussed 24/7)

  4. #4

    Default Re: Oklahoma Sate Capitol Building Improvements

    Money is so cheap right now that we should be doing things like this. And the Indian Cultural Center, or whatever its called.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Oklahoma Sate Capitol Building Improvements

    An article today said that even though money is relatively cheap, the debt service on the 25 year proposed $180 million bond is $9.9 million/yr or $247.5 million. That is still a lot of money that could go towards other things. Also not sure what they mean by "debt service"...is that just interest or does it include the principle???

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Oklahoma Sate Capitol Building Improvements

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry OKC View Post
    An article today said that even though money is relatively cheap, the debt service on the 25 year proposed $180 million bond is $9.9 million/yr or $247.5 million. That is still a lot of money that could go towards other things. Also not sure what they mean by "debt service"...is that just interest or does it include the principle???
    So no wonder some Oklahoma legislators advocate dipping into the appropriately named rainy day fund, where there is more than plenty of money to pay for capitol repairs and still have a substantial amount left over. I don't see a damned thing wrong with using the rainy day fund. It's the conservatively fiscal thing to do. Why borrow money when you don't have to? Let's get the capitol in shape in time for its 100th anniversary.

    By the way, was the last time the surplus fund got drawn well down really based on emergencies?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Oklahoma Sate Capitol Building Improvements

    'State Capitol' instead of 'Sate Capitol' for thread name?
    (sorry for the interruption -- delete this after fixing)

  8. #8

    Default Re: Oklahoma Sate Capitol Building Improvements

    Ok, this has NOTHING to do with the topic... but why does this thread have the "Captiol Hill" icon next to the title? Capitol Hill is nowhere near the acctual Capitol

  9. #9

    Default Re: Oklahoma Sate Capitol Building Improvements

    Quote Originally Posted by Fantastic View Post
    Ok, this has NOTHING to do with the topic... but why does this thread have the "Captiol Hill" icon next to the title? Capitol Hill is nowhere near the acctual Capitol
    I didn't know. How can I remove that?

    Edit: Never mind.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Oklahoma Sate Capitol Building Improvements

    I dunno. I kinda like the Sate Capitol typo. Seems somehow fitting, given our actual capitol bldg isn't quite right either and most don't notice or care about the issues with the crumbling structure.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Oklahoma Sate Capitol Building Improvements

    Quote Originally Posted by Plutonic Panda View Post
    I didn't know. How can I remove that?
    And I'm sorry... what I typed sounded condesending, it wasn't supposed to. Alot of people don't realize that about Capitol Hill and the State Capitol, and if you didn't know, it would make sense to think that the Capitol was in Capitol Hill.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Oklahoma Sate Capitol Building Improvements

    Quote Originally Posted by Fantastic View Post
    And I'm sorry... what I typed sounded condesending, it wasn't supposed to. Alot of people don't realize that about Capitol Hill and the State Capitol, and if you didn't know, it would make sense to think that the Capitol was in Capitol Hill.
    Oh your fine. No worries.

  13. Default Re: Oklahoma Sate Capitol Building Improvements

    Quote Originally Posted by Bunty View Post
    So no wonder some Oklahoma legislators advocate dipping into the appropriately named rainy day fund, where there is more than plenty of money to pay for capitol repairs and still have a substantial amount left over. I don't see a damned thing wrong with using the rainy day fund. It's the conservatively fiscal thing to do. Why borrow money when you don't have to? Let's get the capitol in shape in time for its 100th anniversary.

    By the way, was the last time the surplus fund got drawn well down really based on emergencies?
    The Oklahoman had a recent editorial and correctly pointed out that there is a restriction on the percentage of funds that can be removed (25%) and that wouldn't be enough to make the fixes. But what they failed to mention is that is 25% each year and the repairs are most likely going to take a few years to accomplish. The recent depletion of the Rainy Day Fund was used to fill the budget gaps because of the recession era. Over the years, various folks wanted to use RDF for this or that and then Gov Henry wisely resisted. If we had spent the money, it wouldn't have been there when we really needed it. Since then, the RDF has been refilled to pre-recession levels. Now the question to be decided, do the repairs constitute a RDF emergency? I agree and would suggest that the Legislature explain exactly what constitutes an "emergency" in the emergency clauses that are often contained in legislation. To me it means if action isn't taken immediately, there will be something akin to looting and rioting in the streets. Pieces falling off the building endangering the health and safety of the employees and citizenry may indeed qualify.

    Personally, I would leave the RDF alone. Or for cash flow purposes, borrow from it (if constitutionally permitted) and have it repaid by using a MAPS style penny or half penny sales tax. OKC projected and got $100 million/yr of the MAPS 3 one so far. If instituted state wide, the money needed for the repairs, the AICC and the Tulsa Pop Museum could all be raised in very short order with no long term debt.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Oklahoma Sate Capitol Building Improvements

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry OKC View Post
    Personally, I would leave the RDF alone. Or for cash flow purposes, borrow from it (if constitutionally permitted) and have it repaid by using a MAPS style penny or half penny sales tax. OKC projected and got $100 million/yr of the MAPS 3 one so far. If instituted state wide, the money needed for the repairs, the AICC and the Tulsa Pop Museum could all be raised in very short order with no long term debt.
    But raising the state sales tax would be very difficult to do. A state legislative action to do that requires a 75% majority. A vote of the people requires at least 60%. The money needed is already available in the rainy day fund.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Oklahoma Sate Capitol Building Improvements

    fwiw, the emergency clause in legislation does no more than shorten the time period between a bill being signed into law and the law taking effect. Sans an emergency clause being favorably voted on, legislation takes effect 90 days after signing, or at such later date as written into the bill.

    If an emergency clause is included and favorably voted upon, a law can take effect immediately upon signing or at such alter date specified in the bill.

    As to what constitutes an emergency, in simple terms, an emergency status exists whenever, and for whatever, a majority of the Legislature wants to consider an emergency.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Oklahoma Sate Capitol Building Improvements

    I they would have called it an urgency clause, since most of the time it is used it is not an emergency. Granted what it is called is of little importance.

  17. Default Re: Oklahoma Sate Capitol Building Improvements

    Duplicate partial post

  18. Default Re: Oklahoma Sate Capitol Building Improvements

    Bunty: difficult but not impossible. To ensure passage either make it a temporary tax for very specific projects or a permanent tax. To avoid it becoming a general slush fund for the Legislature, require that any projects be approved by the voters. ONLY the funds estimated for the project could be used without further approval by the voters (no low-balling of estimates just to get it passed). If the proposed project isn't approved, then the tax is still collected but put into a lock box fund that builds interest and waits for a project(s) that will garner voter approval.

    While you are correct about the 75% if the Legislature did it on their own, if not mistaken, if done by a vote of the people it would only require 50% + 1. The 60% "super majority" requirement is reserved for school bond issues??? Of course I would rather see the RDF used rather than a Bond issue (why doesn't that require a 75% majority, it raises taxes too???)

    kevinpate: you are correct. Even so, they need to justify what constitutes the "emergency". Had to laugh when I read the MAPS 3 Ordinance # 23,942, our City leaders planned their emergency ahead of time, knowing the precise dates it would begin and end.

    EMERGENCY ORDINANCE
    ***
    SECTION 4. EMERGENCY. WHEREAS, it being immediately necessary for the preservation of the peace, health, safety and public good of The City of Oklahoma City and the inhabitants thereof that the provisions of this ordinance be put into full force and effect, an emergency is hereby declared to exist by reason whereof this ordinance shall take effect and be in full force from and after the date provided herein as provided by law.
    "Immediately necessary" or in a few months/years? Since the tax wouldn't take effect for a few months until after the vote passed and the primarily pay-as-you-go method meant the proposed projects would be years away before any benefits would be realized for the "health, safety and public good". And the "preservation of the peace" makes it sound like there would be rioting in the streets if they hadn't passed the resolution declaring the "emergency"

    The only thing that constituted an "emergency" was that the Ford/NBA tax was going to be expiring soon and if it were allowed to lapse for even one day, it would be obvious that MAPS 3 was indeed a tax increase and it would make it a bit of a harder sales job. Not impossible, but harder. There was a gap between the 6 minth MAPS extension and MAPS 4 Kids, yet it passed by a healthy margin even though it was an obvious tax increase.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Oklahoma Sate Capitol Building Improvements


  20. #20

    Default Re: Oklahoma Sate Capitol Building Improvements

    Slightly off topic, but still in the Capitol Complex area:

    Who has primary responsibility for the maintenance of the roads in the complex area? I can hear my car's suspension cursing at me every time I drive on Lincoln Boulevard or 18th Street between Walnut and Lincoln. I see that Lincoln south of the Capitol has been repaved, but I don't recall that particular stretch of road needing repair in the first place, unlike the Lincoln/23rd Street wave makers.

    Long-time lurker, occasional poster.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Oklahoma Sate Capitol Building Improvements

    Quote Originally Posted by AAC2005 View Post
    Slightly off topic, but still in the Capitol Complex area:

    Who has primary responsibility for the maintenance of the roads in the complex area? I can hear my car's suspension cursing at me every time I drive on Lincoln Boulevard or 18th Street between Walnut and Lincoln. I see that Lincoln south of the Capitol has been repaved, but I don't recall that particular stretch of road needing repair in the first place, unlike the Lincoln/23rd Street wave makers.

    Long-time lurker, occasional poster.
    This! My car basically skips down Lincoln in the area of the capitol, but they somehow decided to repave the southern portion. Sometimes, I really wonder about the people that make decisions in this state. I find it seriously baffling.

  22. Default Re: Oklahoma Sate Capitol Building Improvements

    It's probaly a matter of traffic flow. South of the capital, you have the whole healthplex, and a LOT of traffic. Basically any other portion of Lincoln isn't as busy. And north of the Capital up to 44 is still in it's "rebuilding" phase.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Oklahoma Sate Capitol Building Improvements

    I was writing off some of the Tea Party claims of the Legislature having no ability to issue bonds for this project under the Constitution absent a Constitutional Amendment, but I'm pretty sure they're right, at least in the case of the Capitol Building (and mistaken in almost all other cases). Other bonds are retired through the Oklahoma Capital Improvement Authority as revenue bonds--the OCIA owns the properties it improves for various agencies and the agencies retire the debt by paying lease payments to the OCIA. In the case of the State Capitol Complex though, what is the status of the building itself? Surely we can't deed it over to the OCIA, so how, legally, does a state agency have the ability to write a revenue bond (which is the only kind of bond you can do without a vote of the people) which will pay back a $140MM or so bond debt through a lease of a property owned by the lessee?

  24. #24

    Default Re: Oklahoma Sate Capitol Building Improvements

    Quote Originally Posted by OnlyOne View Post
    This! My car basically skips down Lincoln in the area of the capitol, but they somehow decided to repave the southern portion. Sometimes, I really wonder about the people that make decisions in this state. I find it seriously baffling.
    Economics. The southern portion is asphalt, while the bad part is concrete. The concrete portion either requires the type of treatment that the area freeways have had (cutting in bars, smoothing joints, etc) or full replacement, which is much more intensive than the simple resurfacing they did for the asphalt portion. I drive it daily, to and from home, and the difference is drastic. Pulling a trailer on that concrete portion is jarring.

    I personally think the entire capitol area transportation infrastructure needs replacing. Remove the cloverleafs, put 23rd at grade and remove a huge unnecessary expense and unwalkable corridor from the central part of Oklahoma City.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Oklahoma Sate Capitol Building Improvements

    Quote Originally Posted by cafeboeuf View Post
    I personally think the entire capitol area transportation infrastructure needs replacing. Remove the cloverleafs, put 23rd at grade and remove a huge unnecessary expense and unwalkable corridor from the central part of Oklahoma City.
    I was guessing those predated the interstates, since they are too tight for even old interstate standards and seems more like the May/NW Expressway era cloverleaf design (though without just dumping you into a traffic lane with no merge zone).

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