Oklahoma students fall behind in math, science ACT scores

[Roadhawg]

A report released Wednesday shows that Oklahoma high school students scored lower than their peers nationally on the ACT college entrance exam.

A few bright spots show progress, but the report shows more work needs to be done, state schools Superintendent Janet Barresi said.
“Oklahoma kids aren't just going to compete with Oklahoma kids for jobs and careers,” she said. “They have to be able to compete nationally and internationally. The gaps remain and we've got to close those gaps.”

Oklahoma fell behind the national average overall, according to the report released by ACT Inc.


http://newsok.com/feed/oklahoma-stud..._headline_news

Some of the comments were pretty good.

[onthestrip]

Science and math are what will drive future economies. The sooner we improve teaching our kids these subjects the better our state will be.

[Roadhawg]

Ironic that the top two threads on here, for now, are a straight A student denied her diploma because she said 'hell' and another story how Oklahoma students are falling behind in math and science. Seems to me they have their priorities backwards.

[soonerguru]

How are we doing on teen pregnancy. We usually score pretty high in that category. Also, has Barresi succeeded in getting "creation science" in the classroom? We'll really keep up if we go that route.

[HewenttoJared]

No link to the data. Annoying.

[HewenttoJared]

Meh. Not really a lot of detail there..
http://media.act.org/documents/CCCR1...adinessRpt.pdf
No huge swings from last year either.

[betts]

Science and math are what will drive future economies. The sooner we improve teaching our kids these subjects the better our state will be.

In my opinon, scientists and mathematicians are born, not made. You have to find the kids with interest and/or aptitude and educate them, rather than wasting time and effort on the artists, musicians and political scientists. I think we all need math up to algebra I and a nice biology course. After that, it's a waste of money and materials to educate those without the interest and/or talent. We should be concentrating our resources where it will do the most good. Those kids can be in any socioeconomic group, either sex and any age. It would be great if we could find them early and let their young brains soak in everything they can.

[Roadhawg]

In my opinon, scientists and mathematicians are born, not made. You have to find the kids with interest and/or aptitude and educate them, rather than wasting time and effort on the artists, musicians and political scientists. I think we all need math up to algebra I and a nice biology course. After that, it's a waste of money and materials to educate those without the interest and/or talent. We should be concentrating our resources where it will do the most good. Those kids can be in any socioeconomic group, either sex and any age. It would be great if we could find them early and let their young brains soak in everything they can.

Good point

[HewenttoJared]

In my opinon, scientists and mathematicians are born, not made. You have to find the kids with interest and/or aptitude and educate them, rather than wasting time and effort on the artists, musicians and political scientists. I think we all need math up to algebra I and a nice biology course. After that, it's a waste of money and materials to educate those without the interest and/or talent. We should be concentrating our resources where it will do the most good. Those kids can be in any socioeconomic group, either sex and any age. It would be great if we could find them early and let their young brains soak in everything they can.

I disagree completely. The states and countries that are beating us aren't doing it through eugenics.

[OKCisOK4me]

I disagree completely. The states and countries that are beating us aren't doing it through eugenics.

You must be a part of that group that thinks society turns people into homosexuals. That they aren't born that way...

Gotta agree with Betts. Like Snoop always said, you can't turn a ho into a housewife...

[bretthexum]

I disagree completely. The states and countries that are beating us aren't doing it through eugenics.

I agree with Betts to a point. Some sciences can be taught but math is a beast. I consider myself fairly intelligent... though I've always struggled mightily with math. It just doesn't click in my head.

Since many sciences require math as a foundation I think she has a point.

[onthestrip]

In a thread about how Oklahoma kids are falling behind Betts suggests we stop educating them...? Wow, we will certainly rise to the top with that kind of strategy...

Math is very important IMO. It helps a person develop reasoning skills which helps people find solutions to problems, math related or not.

[HewenttoJared]

I agree with Betts to a point. Some sciences can be taught but math is a beast. I consider myself fairly intelligent... though I've always struggled mightily with math. It just doesn't click in my head.

Since many sciences require math as a foundation I think she has a point.

Never had a good math teacher, then.

[Swake2]

Math skills can be created. When we had my daughter tested for the gifted program at school when she was in first grade the tests showed she had great aptitude for language skills but less so for spatial ability and math. So to balance things out we lied to her and told her she was most gifted at math. Today math really is her strongest subject, she has breezed through math and this year is taking AP Calculus BC as a junior in high school.

My son is the polar opposite, he was off the charts in math and only ok in language skills. We have not figured him out however, he just simply doesn't have much creative writing in him but is taking high school Algebra I in the 6th grade.

I blame the poor overall scores on right wing disrespect for science specifically and education in general in this state.

[SoonerDave]

I blame the poor overall scores on right wing disrespect for science specifically and education in general in this state.

Nice sweeping generalization. In the same vein, I'll turn around and blame the lack of general, purposeful education on the left wing's preoccupation with social indoctrination and political correctness.

How about we set aside the political rhetoric and look at part of the problem?

I'd like to invite any of you who believe you have "the" solution to our education problems in this state (or nation) to spend a day in the classroom(s) and neighborhood where my wife teaches. On a good parent-teacher night, perhaps one or two out of ten parents (or guardians) will bother showing up. When she needs to make contact with parents (or guardians) about behavior or performance problems, she generally gets a) indifference, b) anger, or sometimes even c) blame.

Or I'll have you spend some time in the classroom where a co-worker's wife teaches, and when forced to call a parent about their unruly child misbehaving in class, was told "Oh, no, during the day, he's YOUR responsibility. I have nothing to do with him." And that's an absolutely true story.

See, there's this patently ridiculous (or perhaps "naive" is a more apt word) notion in our society that if you stick a kid in a building labeled "SCHOOL" for six hours a day that the teachers who interact with them for, perhaps, five of those hours are going to make them all astrophysicists, nuclear engineers, and brain surgeons, all while overcoming the consequences of their parents'/guardians' manifest indifference toward the educational process. Or, better still, you can come wave the magic wand of educational genius on a neighborhood in Arlington where my daughter just served on a mission trip, to find virtually an entire apartment complex of unattended children. Kids raising kids. No parents in sight. For several days in a row.

And in the midst of all this, we wonder why our educational scores are failing, and blame teachers and school systems. If it weren't so pathetic, it'd be laughable. I can't fathom why any young person would want to be a teacher.

[Jake]

I can't fathom why any young person would want to be a teacher.

A decent amount of my college friends who want to be teachers are doing so because they don't know what else to do. They just want to go into teaching because "teachers will always be in demand." Hardly any of them want to be a teacher for the purpose of actually being able to benefit and help kids learn. Almost all of those friends who are males mostly just want to coach, teaching class is mostly just something that comes with it.

I'd hate to have my kids taught by them if they actually do become teachers.

[bretthexum]

Never had a good math teacher, then.

LOL. It might as well have been a different language!

[Swake2]

Nice sweeping generalization. In the same vein, I'll turn around and blame the lack of general, purposeful education on the left wing's preoccupation with social indoctrination and political correctness.

How about we set aside the political rhetoric and look at part of the problem?

I'd like to invite any of you who believe you have "the" solution to our education problems in this state (or nation) to spend a day in the classroom(s) and neighborhood where my wife teaches. On a good parent-teacher night, perhaps one or two out of ten parents (or guardians) will bother showing up. When she needs to make contact with parents (or guardians) about behavior or performance problems, she generally gets a) indifference, b) anger, or sometimes even c) blame.

Or I'll have you spend some time in the classroom where a co-worker's wife teaches, and when forced to call a parent about their unruly child misbehaving in class, was told "Oh, no, during the day, he's YOUR responsibility. I have nothing to do with him." And that's an absolutely true story.

See, there's this patently ridiculous (or perhaps "naive" is a more apt word) notion in our society that if you stick a kid in a building labeled "SCHOOL" for six hours a day that the teachers who interact with them for, perhaps, five of those hours are going to make them all astrophysicists, nuclear engineers, and brain surgeons, all while overcoming the consequences of their parents'/guardians' manifest indifference toward the educational process. Or, better still, you can come wave the magic wand of educational genius on a neighborhood in Arlington where my daughter just served on a mission trip, to find virtually an entire apartment complex of unattended children. Kids raising kids. No parents in sight. For several days in a row.

And in the midst of all this, we wonder why our educational scores are failing, and blame teachers and school systems. If it weren't so pathetic, it'd be laughable. I can't fathom why any young person would want to be a teacher.

Social indoctrination and political correctness? Please. The only indoctrination going on is way too widespread disbelief in a ton of science being taught in too many churches and homes. How about we stop talking about meaningless tax cuts and try to restore some of the funding for education in this state and as a culture stop being so anti-knowledge and reality.

In the real world kids from tough homes need more attention and better teachers. So if we paid teachers more so that more truly talented people became teachers and then at the same time we lower class size so these kids get more individualized attention perhaps we can to a degree overcome the home life. The fact that the parents won’t get involved doesn’t mean that the kids don’t matter, it means you have to work harder with those kids. Giving up just because the parents suck is just creating the next generation of bad parents.

The school district I live in has the highest property taxes in the state and the best school facilities and some of the highest test scores. You want good schools? You have to pay for them. Maybe if you have schools you can be proud of the parents will be better too. Back to school in my son’s class included at least one parent for almost every single child, rich or poor.

We need more money for schools in order to hire more and better teachers in better facilities and we need a longer school year.

[SoonerDave]

Social indoctrination and political correctness? Please. The only indoctrination going on is way too widespread disbelief in a ton of science being taught in too many churches and homes. How about we stop talking about meaningless tax cuts and try to restore some of the funding for education in this state and as a culture stop being so anti-knowledge and reality.

In the real world kids from tough homes need more attention and better teachers. So if we paid teachers more so that more truly talented people became teachers and then at the same time we lower class size so these kids get more individualized attention perhaps we can to a degree overcome the home life. The fact that the parents won’t get involved doesn’t mean that the kids don’t matter, it means you have to work harder with those kids. Giving up just because the parents suck is just creating the next generation of bad parents.

The school district I live in has the highest property taxes in the state and the best school facilities and some of the highest test scores. You want good schools? You have to pay for them. Maybe if you have schools you can be proud of the parents will be better too. Back to school in my son’s class included at least one parent for almost every single child, rich or poor.

We need more money for schools in order to hire more and better teachers in better facilities and we need a longer school year.

We simply could not disagree more on fundamentals, so I'm not sure there's much point in continuing this exchange. My kids went to one of the best public school districts in the state, and I went ballistic when I found out they gave multiple-choice spelling tests and wouldn't test for advanced placement because it would "damage the child's self-esteem." So, yeah, you bet that public schools are hosts for social indoctrination and political correctness. We don't want to teach proper writing and grammar because it "stifles free expression" and we don't teach spelling because "everyone has spell-check." And that was from a teacher who defended the practice. So we're happy we're turning out functional illiterates and making over half the classes eligible for Honor Society inductions because we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. That's something that has to stop.

How can you possibly assert or assume that current teachers in "tough" areas must be bad? Or that they're not "truly talented?" Last time I checked, that was an actual diploma with my wife's name on it from an accredited university on the wall, not a crayon-scrawled napkin from McDonald's. Exactly where is her "talent" deficient in your learned eyes? And exactly how do you know how hard she works with ANY student, sufficient to posit that she (and hundreds like her) aren't working hard enough as it is?? And the last time I checked, she hasn't given up. She's just gone "once more back into the breach" because she loves kids and wants to teach. But your insights are very telling - she's stupid and inept, and we need to get "truly" talented, "harder" working folks to replace her. Sorry, Swake, but you can pontificate all you want, but in this area, you're clueless. You could halve the class size and it won't change the underlying problems of the broken families represented in these classrooms.

"Higher test scores" are just a placebo for the masses in terms of how people are being educated. Guess what? We are paying for schools. The 2012 Oklahoma budget for education is at $3.4 BILLION - over *half* the stat's total budget - for a state of just over 3.8 million population, of which right at one-quarter are school-age. Deduct from that figure the just-over $1 billion appropriated for higher education, and you have $2.4B toward roughly 900,000 school-age children. We need to spend the billions we allocate now more intelligently, on fewer administrators and fewer districts.

I hear this nonsense about lengthening the school year, and then I note how my own kids spend right at the last two-plus weeks of each year killing time to meet mandatory educational requirements, mostly with puzzles, games, movies, and similar nonsense.

Okay, I'm reading this, and realizing I'm derailing from the main topic about the math scores, and for that I apologize and will leave this hijack to end here. Suffice it to say we're on entirely opposite ends of the spectrum, here, Swake - you want to throw more money at a failed system, and I want to overhaul it from the ground up and remove the social indoctrination with which contemporary schools have been inundated.

I'll now return you to the math score topic. Again, apologies for the unintentional hijack.

[Swake2]

What school district wouldn't test for advanced placement?

[progressiveboy]

A decent amount of my college friends who want to be teachers are doing so because they don't know what else to do. They just want to go into teaching because "teachers will always be in demand." Hardly any of them want to be a teacher for the purpose of actually being able to benefit and help kids learn. Almost all of those friends who are males mostly just want to coach, teaching class is mostly just something that comes with it.

I'd hate to have my kids taught by them if they actually do become teachers.

I believe that it part of the problem. Oklahoma places such great emphasis on "Sports" and not enough on academics. This seems to be built in the social and cultural fabric in OK. While sports programs are fine, the first priority is to prepare Oklahoma kids academically and be able to compete on a State and National level. I am perplexed at the "mindset" of males "just mostly wanting to be coaches". This shows that education takes a back burner and is not valued enough in this State.

[zookeeper]

I agree with SoonerDave. Education that matters happens outside the classroom with lots of parental involvement. There are those special teachers who come along for a child at the right time but they're few and far between.

[soonerguru]

OKC has gone to the "year round" school year and we love it. We noticed it has already done wonders for our daughter.

It's not really "year round," there just is a shorter (two month) summer break and longer breaks during the year. It's a definite improvement from the three month layoff.

[HewenttoJared]

Nice sweeping generalization. In the same vein, I'll turn around and blame the lack of general, purposeful education on the left wing's preoccupation with social indoctrination and political correctness.

How about we set aside the political rhetoric and look at part of the problem?

I'd like to invite any of you who believe you have "the" solution to our education problems in this state (or nation) to spend a day in the classroom(s) and neighborhood where my wife teaches. On a good parent-teacher night, perhaps one or two out of ten parents (or guardians) will bother showing up. When she needs to make contact with parents (or guardians) about behavior or performance problems, she generally gets a) indifference, b) anger, or sometimes even c) blame.

Or I'll have you spend some time in the classroom where a co-worker's wife teaches, and when forced to call a parent about their unruly child misbehaving in class, was told "Oh, no, during the day, he's YOUR responsibility. I have nothing to do with him." And that's an absolutely true story.

See, there's this patently ridiculous (or perhaps "naive" is a more apt word) notion in our society that if you stick a kid in a building labeled "SCHOOL" for six hours a day that the teachers who interact with them for, perhaps, five of those hours are going to make them all astrophysicists, nuclear engineers, and brain surgeons, all while overcoming the consequences of their parents'/guardians' manifest indifference toward the educational process. Or, better still, you can come wave the magic wand of educational genius on a neighborhood in Arlington where my daughter just served on a mission trip, to find virtually an entire apartment complex of unattended children. Kids raising kids. No parents in sight. For several days in a row.

And in the midst of all this, we wonder why our educational scores are failing, and blame teachers and school systems. If it weren't so pathetic, it'd be laughable. I can't fathom why any young person would want to be a teacher.

I wanted to be a teacher to fix some of the stupid. Going well so far. All of your points are valid, but you can't let a party off the hook when it is actively trying to force teachers to accept "I don't believe in X. Therefore I don't have to learn it" as an answer on a paper or test.

[Questor]

Math is logic. Logic can be learned and is based on simple rules that are stacked up on top of other rules. There's a reason certain nations are killing us when it comes to math scores... it's the same reason that ex-pats from these nations who immigrate to the US also continue to kill their peer competition on these math scores. It's a cultural thing and it goes something like this... if you're not good at math, then you must study it and practice it for much longer hours, to the point of ending extra curricular activities and instead working math problems all night long, every night, until the student gets better at it. It's tough love, but it is proven to work. Absolutely proven. The fact is most American students would never do this, and their parents would never require it. It's why the far east is kicking our butts when it comes to these scores... they are putting in the time required to get everyone up to a certain level of understanding.

It's funny, the above is just a fancy way for me to say that the problem is laziness, which if you look at all the political discussion in this thread, all of it basically boils down to that same point as well... just from different perspectives.