They're such sweet dogs

[Dubya61]

Come on. Google still works. List of dog fighting breeds - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Come on. Logic still works, too. And wikipedia is not an authoritative source -- even my middle school daughter knows that (you get what you pay for, eh?). Somebody subjectively put that list together. Just about every breed out there was created to do some sort of protection or varmint control -- attack and kill something. The only possible exception that comes to mind are hunting dogs, and they often have to be trained the difference between retrieving and killing.

[Prunepicker]

I have a very sweet and precious friend who is so far left that I'm a leftist.

She has several Pit Bulls and is an ardent member of something called
Stop the Hate. It has much to do with Pit Bulls.

I love my friend very much.

Stop the Hate.

[Dubya61]

And I'm right here, Sid. You can see by the post that I quoted that I was responding to SoonerGuru's comment about how Pit Bulls were "dogs who were bred to attack and kill, so that is in their instinct, and sometimes, instincts overtakes training." I called his remark BS, infering that not only were Pit Bulls bred to attack and kill, so were every other breed. You responded infering that I was not researching the matter by providing a list someone generated on wikipedia of breeds that have been used in the past for dog fighting. The fallacy is that because someone has in the past used a Pit Bull in dog fighting does not make it a vicious breed. In fact the dog species in general was created to do some sort of protection or varmint control (attack and kill something) as were all breeds. My conclusion is that if you're going to characterize Pit Bulls as killers, you may as well go ahead and condemn the entire species.
Back up why you're terrified of Pit Bulls, but not a German Shepherd -- because there are some poorly bred examples of the breed and some poorly trained examples of the breed?
I'll just be right here.

[Dubya61]

Where did I say I was terrified of Pit Bulls? The reason I can say Pit Bulls are more dangerous than German Shepherds is because of data. Raw, data. Go back many posts ago. I cited non-wikipedia sources. Tons and tons and tons of data from all over the world, gathered for decades. They are an unusually vicious breed.

If you don't want to go back and read the data, just Google and filter news articles for pretty much anything related to dog bites or attacks. Let me know if you see a pattern.

You still haven't answered to your claim that all dogs were bread to kill and attack. I gave a link that showed you dogs that have been historically bred for fighting. A list that you can find just about anywhere online. It is easy to see which dogs have actually been bred to attack and kill. Most haven't been.

'Used' in fighting? Do you mean they were just happily skipping along and someone was like, "hey, you like a mean dog, I think I'll try to see if you can fight"? Do you mean that an entire industry was just guessing on which breed would be the most violent? These are the poorly bred ones?

If you respond without addressing the data, I'm done. Back up your claim that all dogs go to heaven...er, were bred to fight and kill. Then back up your claim that pit bull attacks are simply from 'poorly trained examples'. I'm not going to be here anymore. I've got work to do and this is a subject that is so thoroughly documented its really not worth debating with someone who is just going to throw out hyperbole and not cite anything. Cheers!

I don't need to go back and read the data that you provided up thread because I've already responded to it up thread. I know that you see a pattern. I do, too. As I stated up thread, I say that it's a pattern of misleading categorization of all vicious dogs as pit bulls and the nice ones must not be pit bulls. I addressed the data up thread, and I'm also done on that topic.

All dog breeds were created to attack and kill something. The Rottweiller was a cattle guard dog. This job involves attacking and killing things that it has learned were a threat. Not all Rottweillers are great cattle guard dogs. It must still be an action trained to each dog, but they are well-built for it. Mostly what they would attack and kill would be predatory cats and wolves, but they are not typically used in dog fighting even though your cited list says it's in their history. German Shepherds have been trained to attack and kill anything on command. Rat Terriers are trained to attack and kill small rodents. The list goes on and on with the common thread being that almost every breed has been a wolf-derivative manipulated to guard / attack / kill something.

I, too, must depart, but still contend that the subject is not so thoroughly documented as you believe it is. Cheers.

[soonerguru]

Well at times people forget these are all animals. There are many in each breed that can be very loving and some that can be very violent. A lot comes into in the way their line was raised and the environment they are in. While I'm personally not a fan of the Pit, and have never owned one, I have friends who do and have never had a problem with them. What I've found is that this is one of those subjects where people will have their minds made up and won't change when it comes to a breed. Does the Pit get a bad rep? It can be overblown in some circumstances, but in others it is deserved.

The are lists out there though that will show German Shepherds and Huskies as dangerous and violent dogs, but I've owned both breeds and have never had a problem. To be honest the breeds I've seen/had the most issues with are the smaller "yip" dogs that can be very aggressive and violent biting people at the drop of a hat. I don't tolerate a dog getting violent at all or showing aggression towards a person. Those little dogs learned quick what their place was and if after additional training they didn't change, they were gone. A dog should be your companion that you enjoy having around. Behavioral issues aren't going to be tolerated since it gets in the way.

So regardless. Yes Pits have a history of attacks, but its not every Pit. Pits also, from what I've read, has the largest percent of the population when looking at the other "aggressive" breeds. Here is one resource I found pretty quickly that reflects similar details:

Dog Attack Deaths and Maimings, U.S. & Canada, September 1982 to December 31, 2012 - By Merritt Clifton - DogsBite.org

Those numbers are over 30 years. Many resources will show as well that smaller dogs like Chihuahuas and the like are the most aggressive and cause the most attacks/bites. At the end of the day though, we also have to look at the owner and who raised the dog. Chances are we'll find a lot of triggers there. There are some people that have zero idea how to properly raise and train a dog and are the enabler to a dog becoming violent. Unfortunately there isn't any screening to keep people from getting a dog when they couldn't keep a goldfish alive for more than a day.

Great post. However, I would survive an attack from a Chihuahua, or another "yip" dog, but a pit bull could rip my head off, quite literally. They are dangerous in a public setting. Even responsible owners have had their pits attack, maim and kill others.

[Prunepicker]

I agree 100%, ergo, that they are 'such sweet dogs.'

I have an incredibly sweet and precious friend who is so far to the left that
I'm a leftist. She loves Pit Bulls and has joined a group that seeks too
save them

I in favor of my precious friend.

I have no idea what the haters have in store.

[okc_coder]

I spent a lot of time socializing my Pit to people and other dogs. That doesn't mean you can walk into my house unannounced or unknown but it does mean if you walked up to me when he was with me you wouldn't have a problem. There's no reason to continue defending them because people are going to hate no matter what you say. If you train a dog or a kid to be mean you're going to have a mean dog or kid. Don't blame the dog or the kid for the way they were raised.

[PennyQuilts]

Speaking of BS, eh? Please name a dog breed that wasn't initially bred to attack and kill.

Samoyeds were reindeer herders, watch dogs (many have obnoxious barks) and kept to keep babies warm. A lot of the herding breeds as well as the companion breeds were never bred to harm anyone.

[PennyQuilts]

Come on. Logic still works, too. And wikipedia is not an authoritative source -- even my middle school daughter knows that (you get what you pay for, eh?). Somebody subjectively put that list together. Just about every breed out there was created to do some sort of protection or varmint control -- attack and kill something. The only possible exception that comes to mind are hunting dogs, and they often have to be trained the difference between retrieving and killing.

Do you have dogs? I don't know any knowledgeable dog owners who think like that.

[PennyQuilts]

And I'm right here, Sid. You can see by the post that I quoted that I was responding to SoonerGuru's comment about how Pit Bulls were "dogs who were bred to attack and kill, so that is in their instinct, and sometimes, instincts overtakes training." I called his remark BS, infering that not only were Pit Bulls bred to attack and kill, so were every other breed. You responded infering that I was not researching the matter by providing a list someone generated on wikipedia of breeds that have been used in the past for dog fighting. The fallacy is that because someone has in the past used a Pit Bull in dog fighting does not make it a vicious breed. In fact the dog species in general was created to do some sort of protection or varmint control (attack and kill something) as were all breeds. My conclusion is that if you're going to characterize Pit Bulls as killers, you may as well go ahead and condemn the entire species.
Back up why you're terrified of Pit Bulls, but not a German Shepherd -- because there are some poorly bred examples of the breed and some poorly trained examples of the breed?
I'll just be right here.

All you need to do is look at their anatomy to be able to tell that not all dogs are created equal. There is simply no comparison between a Pit and a greyhound. Or a toy poodle.

[PennyQuilts]

I spent a lot of time socializing my Pit to people and other dogs. That doesn't mean you can walk into my house unannounced or unknown but it does mean if you walked up to me when he was with me you wouldn't have a problem. There's no reason to continue defending them because people are going to hate no matter what you say. If you train a dog or a kid to be mean you're going to have a mean dog or kid. Don't blame the dog or the kid for the way they were raised.

You walk into my house and my Samoyeds would show you the safe. I've not spent much time socializing them - they come that way out of the box. There is not an aggressive bone in their body and they are too goofy to ever manage to work in a pack to attack anything. One of mine went hunting with the other and when the second flushed a rabbit, it scared the first one so much she ran away. They weight about 60 - 65 pounds. I couldn't make them attack anyone if I tried. It is just not in them. At best, you could beat them so that they bit back, I suppose. You don't have to do that with Pits. Trained or not, socialized or not - they are able to get together in a mob and tear people to bits. I've had friends with pits who adored them and they STILL had the problem. To change the breed - I also had a doberman as a child. He was never beaten and was treated like a young prince. One day, with no warning, he grabbed my throat and I still have the scars, fifty years later. He did that to several people. It was just the way he was and the way a lot of dobs are if they aren't trained, otherwise. The difference is that Pits can seem like sweethearts up to the instant they eat your liver.

[Dubya61]

Samoyeds were reindeer herders, watch dogs (many have obnoxious barks) and kept to keep babies warm. A lot of the herding breeds as well as the companion breeds were never bred to harm anyone.

Perhaps that particular breed wasn't bred by man to be that way.
From Snow Angel Samoyed's History of the Samoyed People and their dogs:

The first wolf-like canines (Canis familiaris palustris) appeared 12,000 to 14,000 years ago and originated from the Southern strain of the Gray Wolf in South Central Asia, where the Samoyed people originated. Early Asian hunter-gatherers demonstrated a special kinship to wolves because of their common social structure and hunting prowess. This relationship in the Samoyede culture was heightened to reverence due in part to the culture's traditional animistic religion (worship of animal spirits). They took puppies and gave them a special place in their lodgings ("chooms"). This relationship went from reverence to partnership. Both the hunter-gatherer and the wolf-like canine had many aspects of their clan/pack behavior that were identical. It is therefore easy to see how the primitive canines adapted well to the similar social structure of the Samoyede people.
Due to their isolation from the rest of the world, the Samoyed dog "bred true, " meaning that there was no alteration of the breed from other wolf, fox, or primitive dog breeds. As a result, the Samoyed dog of today is one of only 4 breeds that are directly descended from wolves.

Do you have dogs? I don't know any knowledgeable dog owners who think like that.

Yes, several, and I love them dearly, but they are derived from the ancient wolf. To be certain, some of them have lost their union card, but some still carry it.

All you need to do is look at their anatomy to be able to tell that not all dogs are created equal. There is simply no comparison between a Pit and a greyhound. Or a toy poodle.

It's true, that centuries of breeding have made it hard to see the source canid (wolf? fox? coyote?) in the toy poodle, but its DNA tells us it's there -- for all dogs. Per James Serpell in his book, “The Domestic Dog: Its Evolution, Behaviour, and Interactions With People,” “The particular subspecies of wolf that gave rise to the various lineages of domesticated dogs has yet to be elucidated, but it is thought that either an undiscovered extinct subspecies or Canis lupus pallipes, the Indian wolf, are the best candidates.”
Dr. Raymond Coppinger says that "hypothetically, wolves separated into two populations–the village-oriented scavengers and the packs of hunters." From these scavengers, we have today’s dogs, even the toy poodle. The poodles and most other hunting dogs were selectively bred until the traits desired were magnified and the traits not desired were thrust into the background. There is not a dog breed present today that is not capable of killing or mauling another living creature (even Samoyeds) when thrust into a fight-or-flight situation and flight doesn’t seem possible to the dog.

…You don't have to do that [beat them so they bite back] with Pits. Trained or not, socialized or not - they are able to get together in a mob and tear people to bits. I've had friends with pits who adored them and they STILL had the problem. To change the breed - I also had a doberman as a child. He was never beaten and was treated like a young prince. One day, with no warning, he grabbed my throat and I still have the scars, fifty years later. He did that to several people. It was just the way he was and the way a lot of dobs are if they aren't trained, otherwise. The difference is that Pits can seem like sweethearts up to the instant they eat your liver.

My wife tells me a friend of hers was a dachshund breeder and one day tripped and fell and was mauled by her little sweet weenie dogs. Any dog can seem like a sweetheart “up to the instant they eat your liver,” and merit caution and care.
Venture said it: people already have their mind made up. I can tell your position and I can tell Sid’s. But if you think I’m pro-Pit Bull, you’re wrong. I’m anti-prejudice and I believe that any individual deserves to be judged as an individual away from its stereotype. I’m not saying that any Pit Bull is as harmless as a soft and cuddly teddy bear. I know better and I know better than to say that good training can solve anything. I am saying that labeling any Pit Bull as dangerous without a fair assessment is just as stupid as saying Jackie Robinson can’t play baseball in the big leagues or that white people don’t experience racism. It’s as stupid as saying that a women isn’t as good in the workplace as a man or that homosexuals don’t deserve to be in committed, sanctioned relationships with all the benefits of such a union under law. I’m anti-prejudice.
I’ve got two pitties at home right now, and I love ‘em dearly, but they’re not the reason I wear shoes in the morning when I go into my daughter’s room to wake her up. It’s Chihuahuas that dart out from underneath the bed and blankets and bite my feet, shins and hands – the same dogs that sit on my lap at night when we watch TV.
I also watch my dachshund-mix carefully. She’s a beYOTCH if she thinks she has prior claim to a chair or bed that you want to occupy. It’s the greyhound-retriever-mix that I keep a very wary eye on when we have company. Let her loose from her crate and she’ll sneak up behind company and bite them in the butt or calf. And, yes, I watch my pitties like a hawk. I had to put one down about two years ago after he showed too much interest in attacking a pot-bellied pig that he grew up with. I simply couldn’t trust him any longer to not attack things he knew were family “members” as I yelled at him and worked for 10 minutes to drag him off of the pig. I loved that dog and he loved me, but there was no room at my house for a known menace that I couldn’t control.

[PennyQuilts]

Even if Dachshunds are killers (and I think you may be onto something) that doesn't change the temperament of pit bulls. It only makes the argument stronger that some dog breeds are inherently untrustworthy. I'm not saying this or that individual pit bull is dangerous. I am saying you simply can't tell, in advance, if they will snap. Yes, that is true of any dog, but in nearly every case, you have to show abuse or very extenuating circumstances before it happens. The odds of a pit snapping and a lab or a samoyed doing it can't even be compared. We've had way, way, way too many instances of pits - unprovoked - crossing a street and attacking other animals and people. And we've had way too many instances of pits running in packs and attacking other creatures. You just don't see other breeds doing (who has ever seen a pack of killer dachshunds?) that I think it has to be something to do with their brain/nervous system.

But you are correct that Samoyeds weren't really bred by man the way most breeds have been. They are all but exactly the same as they were in the wild thousands of years ago. It is amazing, to me, that such gentle creatures could be so closely descended from wolves, especially when you consider how untrustworthy so many other close wolf relative dogs can be. I honestly do not believe I would have a bit of trouble keeping them from attacking a pet pig - so long as it lived in the house, about all I'd have to do is look them in the eye and tell them to cut it out. They are like little kids.

I think I've smacked one of my girls with a rolled up newspaper three times and the other twice. I also bonked her with a one pound bag bag of birdseed to get her to listen to me - she was too excited about a frickin squirrel and I was on the phone. You just don't have to get mean with them - they'll pretty much do what you want. When they were little, I'd make them lay down if they got out of control. I can't imagine having a dog in my home that I had to fight to convince them I was in charge. That isn't a family member - that's a power struggle.

[RadicalModerate]

Somehow all of this reminds me of that old Norm MacDonald routine about "weiner dogs." Especially the part about putting sweaters on any dogs, especially dachshunds. I think he summed it up with a line like, "If you're a weiner dog in a cardigan . . . them are some mean streets."

[OKCTalker]

Police say man who shot attacking pit bull saved lives | Tulsa World

Headline: "Police Say Man Who Shot Attacking Pit Bull Saved Lives"

Tulsa police credit a man who distracted and shot a dog that brutally attacked two women Tuesday morning with saving their lives.

The women suffered "extensive dog bite wounds to their faces, arms and legs" and were transported by EMSA to St. John Medical Center, Officer Leland Ashley said. One of the victims, Irene Parker, 78, underwent extensive surgery that took four hours.

The other victim was a 43-year-old woman whose name has not been released. Both women were in critical condition Tuesday night.

Levi Moore, an elder at the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses at 2626 N. Lewis Ave., said the women were volunteers who walked door-to-door ministering and distributing religious literature.

"It is a terrible tragedy," Moore said. "They were two ladies just trying to help people."

[kelroy55]

Police say man who shot attacking pit bull saved lives | Tulsa World

Headline: "Police Say Man Who Shot Attacking Pit Bull Saved Lives"

Tulsa police credit a man who distracted and shot a dog that brutally attacked two women Tuesday morning with saving their lives.

The women suffered "extensive dog bite wounds to their faces, arms and legs" and were transported by EMSA to St. John Medical Center, Officer Leland Ashley said. One of the victims, Irene Parker, 78, underwent extensive surgery that took four hours.

The other victim was a 43-year-old woman whose name has not been released. Both women were in critical condition Tuesday night.

Levi Moore, an elder at the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses at 2626 N. Lewis Ave., said the women were volunteers who walked door-to-door ministering and distributing religious literature.

"It is a terrible tragedy," Moore said. "They were two ladies just trying to help people."

I hope for a speedy recovery to the two ladies and playing devil's advocate they did come into a fenced yard that had a beware of dog sign clearly displayed.

[soonerguru]

I hope for a speedy recovery to the two ladies and playing devil's advocate they did come into a fenced yard that had a beware of dog sign clearly displayed.

They deserve a lot of credit for doing what they did. That is a very rough neighborhood, probably the worst in the state-- it would take a lot of nerve to walk those streets and go door to door.

[td25er]

Not srs.

We might as well go to all of the rough neighborhoods in the metro and just throw everybody in jail, because 100% of them will eventually commit a violent crime. It's in their blood. They were raised that way.

[Dubya61]

They deserve a lot of credit for doing what they did. That is a very rough neighborhood, probably the worst in the state-- it would take a lot of nerve to walk those streets and go door to door.

... a LOT of nerve and blind faith to walk

into a fenced yard that had a beware of dog sign clearly displayed.

[kelroy55]

They deserve a lot of credit for doing what they did. That is a very rough neighborhood, probably the worst in the state-- it would take a lot of nerve to walk those streets and go door to door.

I agree and admire their conviction but you also have to have some common sense in what you're doing. I wouldn't care if the guy owed me money and told me to come over I wouldn't go into a fenced yard with a beware of dog sign.

[PennyQuilts]

Not srs.

We might as well go to all of the rough neighborhoods in the metro and just throw everybody in jail, because 100% of them will eventually commit a violent crime. It's in their blood. They were raised that way.

Excuse me? If you are trying to compare the pits to humans and wanting to apply the same rules, don't see it. One is a dog, the other is a human being. Moreover, the implication that all humans in these rough neighborhoods are alike is offensive.

[PennyQuilts]

I agree and admire their conviction but you also have to have some common sense in what you're doing. I wouldn't care if the guy owed me money and told me to come over I wouldn't go into a fenced yard with a beware of dog sign.

If a guy owed me money and wanted me to come over, I'd tell him to meet me at the Home Depot.

[RadicalModerate]

To the best of my knowledge, The New Testament "speaks"--only once, maybe twice--of not worrying about harm that serpents can do. I don't think it says anything about "Pit Bulls" or other biting breeds of dogs. Frankly, I wouldn't even "put out a fleece" to "test the waters" or "test my faith" even if there was a sign up on the fence that said "Beware of Snakes." Especially if the yard was crawling with "rescued pythons" from Florida that can't even bite. =)

And I suppose that is why I chose not to buy into the Jehovah's Witnesses paradigm nor that of the "Mormons".
(when i was a child i did help with that UNICEF door-knocking thing . . . and, of course, Halloween collections . . . but that was a kinder, gentler time . . . with less pit bulls and snakes/owners thereof. =)

[kelroy55]

If a guy owed me money and wanted me to come over, I'd tell him to meet me at the Home Depot.

I agree

[td25er]

Excuse me? If you are trying to compare the pits to humans and wanting to apply the same rules, don't see it. One is a dog, the other is a human being. Moreover, the implication that all humans in these rough neighborhoods are alike is offensive.

Not srs.

We might as well go to all of the rough neighborhoods in the metro and just throw everybody in jail, because 100% of them will eventually commit a violent crime. It's in their blood. They were raised that way.

I was being facetious.