Cannabis

[NoOkie]

NoOkie, I think the problem, is often practical. As you say, it is relatively easy to control the amount of alcohol you provide your child and you can easily couple light drinking with education. You always end up having to hope for the best but it helps that few responsible parents are going to serve your child alcohol without your permission. Culturally, that doesn't happen that much.

Pot smoking, not so much and that isn't going to change for quite some time. That might be because of the stigma of smoking and it might be that might change over time, but we aren't nearly there, yet. For every sensible pot smoking adult who would see the benefit of educating their child about pot smoking - and the wrongness of exposing someone else's child to pot without their express permission - there are 100 more that would just look the other way when junior and his buds lit up. And that leads to really dangerous situations. I DON'T want my stoned fifteen year old daughter making decisions about sex and birth control while over at some pothead's unsupervised house in the afternoon anymore than I would want her to make those sorts of decisions when she is drunk. I just don't see any reason to believe that pot is less dangerous in any tangible way for kids than alcohol - they are both dangerous in different ways - and some in common.

I think the same 100 parents that would ignore a joint would also ignore a bottle of whiskey. I think that's just general irresponsibility and not a unique stoner irresponsibility. I can see where you're coming from though, in that someone that already ignores laws with rather harsh penalties just to get high is probably not going to be a great parent. If it was legalized, those people would still make ****ty parents, but I imagine there would be other casual users that wouldn't be. Personally, I'm with you in the not wanting other parents to allow my children to partake in illegal(or legal, really...), thought-impairing substances without my permission be they alcohol, marijuana or whatever else.

I really think the parental permission side of it is the least dangerous part. It's the kids that they're friends with that have much more influence. I spent a lot of time drunk and stoned in highschool, and it was never with anyone's parents "looking the other way". I knew people that were older and had their own apartments, or just went out to a random field somewhere and had "deep" conversations that involved saying "Dude, wow" a lot.

Penny, I guess my rationality is that the 15 yr old girl would be able to make a more rational decision while being high over being drunk.

I really don't see the difference here. I've been really drunk, and really high and the quality of the decisions that came out of both situations were equally poor.

[kevinpate]

Not a cause I see me donating to. Buying a lotto ticket and setting it ablaze an hour before drawing would seem to still have better odds for a return. Good idea or no, as to something happening in OK, the folks at the 4th floor, Sen Johnson notwithstanding, aren't going to get on board anytime soon. As for an initiative petition, even if the funding could be raised, a vote in 2014, with a strong R ballot statewide and a mobilized conservachurch base suggests to me the outcome would be, at best, 58-42 against (and I suspect it wouldn't be that close.)

[LandRunOkie]

I DON'T want my stoned fifteen year old daughter making decisions about sex and birth control while over at some pothead's unsupervised house in the afternoon anymore than I would want her to make those sorts of decisions when she is drunk.

Why is your 15 year old daughter stoned? You've created a straw man by bringing kids into this. None of the state laws allow anyone that young to legally smoke.

There were 8600 prisoners in state penitentiaries in 2002. They each cost about as much to incarcerate as a public school teacher makes per annum. That means a state the size of Oklahoma could afford to hire about 80-100 new school teachers if it stopped incarcerating marijuana users (not including new tax revenue). This may be beneficial to your stoned 15 year old daughter.

[PennyQuilts]

Why is your 15 year old daughter stoned? You've created a straw man by bringing kids into this. None of the state laws allow anyone that young to legally smoke.

There were 8600 prisoners in state penitentiaries in 2002. They each cost about as much to incarcerate as a public school teacher makes per annum. That means a state the size of Oklahoma could afford to hire about 80-100 new school teachers if it stopped incarcerating marijuana users (not including new tax revenue). This may be beneficial to your stoned 15 year old daughter.

If you are suggesting that making pot legal won't result in more teens getting stoned, I have to disagree with you.

And I didn't bring kids into this - the discussion about kids began when someone else said they'd rather their child smoke pot than drink. My point - that you are glossing over and is NOT a strawman - is that I don't want my daughter making life changing decisions whether she is stoned OR drunk. Assuming that it won't be "my" child that has a problem is a burying your head in the sand. No child is immune and you never know which one can handle it and which can't.

And forgive me if I say that if they legalize pot, you will probably have less people incarcerated for marijuana offenses, but you'll also have a lot more social problems that go along with pot smoking and that costs money, too. I worked with way too many messed up kids whose problems were the result of excessive pot smoking - even the ones whose parents were doing the best they could to get it under control - and this was in a state where pot was illegal. Every kid I ever tried to work with whose personality had changed to surly and withdrawn - and who was dropping out of school - and who had became dishonest and deceitful to hide their habit - would spout the same sorts of arguments, i.e., that pot smoking is harmless and better than drinking.

[soonerguru]

NoOkie, I think the problem, is often practical. As you say, it is relatively easy to control the amount of alcohol you provide your child and you can easily couple light drinking with education. You always end up having to hope for the best but it helps that few responsible parents are going to serve your child alcohol without your permission. Culturally, that doesn't happen that much.

Pot smoking, not so much and that isn't going to change for quite some time. That might be because of the stigma of smoking and it might be that might change over time, but we aren't nearly there, yet. For every sensible pot smoking adult who would see the benefit of educating their child about pot smoking - and the wrongness of exposing someone else's child to pot without their express permission - there are 100 more that would just look the other way when junior and his buds lit up. And that leads to really dangerous situations. I DON'T want my stoned fifteen year old daughter making decisions about sex and birth control while over at some pothead's unsupervised house in the afternoon anymore than I would want her to make those sorts of decisions when she is drunk. I just don't see any reason to believe that pot is less dangerous in any tangible way for kids than alcohol - they are both dangerous in different ways - and some in common.

You probably already know this, but NEWS FLASH: it's easier for youngsters to get pot today than it is for them to get alcohol. That's because the government controls distribution of alcohol. Currently, only the cartels and drug gangs control distribution of marijuana.

Continue to oppose legalization of marijuana and you prefer the status quo: violent, murderous drug gangs making billions off of our failed eradication policy.

It's pretty cut and dried if you're willing to consider reality.

[Bunty]

Continue to oppose legalization of marijuana and you prefer the status quo: violent, murderous drug gangs making billions off of our failed eradication policy.

I think many Republicans would much prefer that the marijuana trade remain underground and out of sight, however violent the risk may be. To legalize it would be too awful trying to tolerate seeing huge images of marijuana leaves plastered over store fronts, enticing young people over age 21 to go in and buy some. Surely, Penny Quilts would agree with me on that as being one of the major reasons why so many conservatives or Republicans are vehemently opposed to legalizing marijuana. Maybe such opponents would be open minded to compromise by limiting the size of marijuana store signs and advertising, like in the way it started for alcohol when it became legal in Oklahoma.

[kevinpate]

Bunty, such a drive to raise the necessary signatures to force a vote by the people would be costly to organize. Who would you anticipate to be willing to fund the expenses for such a petition drive. A handful of advocates won't cut it.

[Jim Kyle]

We managed to quit a few years ago, and their dad managed to quit this year, but I'm worried that the damage is already done and the behavior is already imprinted. Out of all the dumb things that I did as a kid(And there were plenty!), smoking tobacco was easily the stupidest with the longest term effects.

Don't worry overmuch about it. I was a heavy smoker for some 40 years, and my wife took it up shortly before our marriage. Our sons all grew up in a home that undoubtedly reeked of stale tobacco smoke -- and as a result they all developed a total revulsion to it! Hopefully, you'll be as lucky...

I did quit, some 25 years ago, but the damage to my body had already been done. I now have an implanted defibrillator, and only 50% lung capacity -- but I knew what I was doing and did it anyway, so I now have no right to complain about the consequences...

[Bunty]

Don't worry overmuch about it. I was a heavy smoker for some 40 years, and my wife took it up shortly before our marriage. Our sons all grew up in a home that undoubtedly reeked of stale tobacco smoke -- and as a result they all developed a total revulsion to it! Hopefully, you'll be as lucky...

I did quit, some 25 years ago, but the damage to my body had already been done. I now have an implanted defibrillator, and only 50% lung capacity -- but I knew what I was doing and did it anyway, so I now have no right to complain about the consequences...

Meanwhile, what is the worst medical problem that may happen to heavy pot smokers? Bronchitis?

[jett713]

If I had my choice, my kids would drink wine or beer at the dinner table and leave the rest alone. More and more studies are showing that kids' brains are affected by pot in detrimental ways that might not affect adults the same way, and let's face it, the pot kids smoke, these days, is much stronger than it was decades ago. I saw nothing good come from teens smoking pot as a guardian ad litem, and plenty just horrible in terms of memory impairment (even when not stoned), lack of motivation, school achievement dropping off, poor social skills and interactions, retarded maturity and addictive personality development. It also allows underlying mental illness to more easily gain a foothold. Excessive drinking is no good, either, but to pretend pot smoking is no big deal for kids, IMO, is dangerous. It is very dangerous for some kids (perhaps not all) but you just don't know which ones will be severely affected.

For that matter, it would worry me more to have my kids running with a bunch of potheads than kids who sneak beer. I say that from purely practical reasons - kids who drink can more easily hide it and if they are drinking, chances are if their parents don't know it, it is more likely because they were fooled. Plenty of good parents with good intentions are fooled by sneaky kids. it means they were fooled - it doesn't mean they aren't making a good effort to set a safe environment.

But kids who smoke have clothes and rooms that reek. Parents of the kids who ignore the smell are liable to be either potheads, themselves, dysfunctional parents who let their kids run wild, or clueless. How many of those parents are going to call the kid's parents and tell them that, although they let their own child smoke, they want to make sure it is okay for the neighbor kid to join in? They won't. They will just look the other way and that sets kids up to end up in a smoking den with no real adult supervision.

Good parents might let their kids drink at a certain age, in moderation, but I can't see good parents throwing open the bar for the neighbor kids to do the same because they'd realize that wouldn't be appropriate. Maybe I was wrong but I let my kids have a short glass of wine or beer with dinner (at home) beginning they were in their mid teens (16 - 17). We treated it as a learning experience and would discuss different types of wine or beer, how it was brewed, moderation, etc. But I can't imagine having one of their friends over and offering them alcohol without their parent's permission. And I wouldn't serve my kids alcohol if we had company because that is something another parent might not feel comfortable with.

Kids sneaking behind the barn to smoke or drink is one thing. It happens. Kids whose families tolerate unsupervised drinking, smoking, etc. and allow other parents' kids to use their home as a safe haven tend to be bad news because there is a break down in boundaries. I wouldn't trust those families to properly keep an eye out for my kid.

I don't want kids smoking cannabis either. Under current laws it is easier for a kid to get cannabis than it is alcohol. Joe Schmoe does not ask for ID. If cannabis were regulated, taxed and sold to persons 21 years of age. In adults only stores where they ID, those same stores would be fined and/or jailed if selling to a minor. Same goes for contributing to the delinquency of a minor. I know I would rather have my kids get high as get wasted on alcohol. Not one person has ever died of a cannabis overdose. You can't say the same for alcohol. Cannabis is not addictive, you can get a dependence on it, but is not the same as addiction. I don't know about you, but I'm tired of our government flushing Ten Billion dollars down the toilet every year to stop a plant. All the senseless deaths across our southern border. Why not get the tax revenue from it and use it for something good. Whether it be recreational or medicinal. The status quo is not working.

[soonerguru]

If I had my choice, my kids would drink wine or beer at the dinner table and leave the rest alone. More and more studies are showing that kids' brains are affected by pot in detrimental ways that might not affect adults the same way, and let's face it, the pot kids smoke, these days, is much stronger than it was decades ago. I saw nothing good come from teens smoking pot as a guardian ad litem, and plenty just horrible in terms of memory impairment (even when not stoned), lack of motivation, school achievement dropping off, poor social skills and interactions, retarded maturity and addictive personality development. It also allows underlying mental illness to more easily gain a foothold. Excessive drinking is no good, either, but to pretend pot smoking is no big deal for kids, IMO, is dangerous. It is very dangerous for some kids (perhaps not all) but you just don't know which ones will be severely affected.

For that matter, it would worry me more to have my kids running with a bunch of potheads than kids who sneak beer. I say that from purely practical reasons - kids who drink can more easily hide it and if they are drinking, chances are if their parents don't know it, it is more likely because they were fooled. Plenty of good parents with good intentions are fooled by sneaky kids. it means they were fooled - it doesn't mean they aren't making a good effort to set a safe environment.

But kids who smoke have clothes and rooms that reek. Parents of the kids who ignore the smell are liable to be either potheads, themselves, dysfunctional parents who let their kids run wild, or clueless. How many of those parents are going to call the kid's parents and tell them that, although they let their own child smoke, they want to make sure it is okay for the neighbor kid to join in? They won't. They will just look the other way and that sets kids up to end up in a smoking den with no real adult supervision.

Good parents might let their kids drink at a certain age, in moderation, but I can't see good parents throwing open the bar for the neighbor kids to do the same because they'd realize that wouldn't be appropriate. Maybe I was wrong but I let my kids have a short glass of wine or beer with dinner (at home) beginning they were in their mid teens (16 - 17). We treated it as a learning experience and would discuss different types of wine or beer, how it was brewed, moderation, etc. But I can't imagine having one of their friends over and offering them alcohol without their parent's permission. And I wouldn't serve my kids alcohol if we had company because that is something another parent might not feel comfortable with.

Kids sneaking behind the barn to smoke or drink is one thing. It happens. Kids whose families tolerate unsupervised drinking, smoking, etc. and allow other parents' kids to use their home as a safe haven tend to be bad news because there is a break down in boundaries. I wouldn't trust those families to properly keep an eye out for my kid.

Which studies? Can you cite them?

[onthestrip]

Penny, no one is talking about letting kids smoke. The new laws in CO and WA require you to be an adult to have possession.

[PennyQuilts]

Penny, no one is talking about letting kids smoke. The new laws in CO and WA require you to be an adult to have possession.

Actually, they were talking about kids, onthestrip. My comment was in direct response to the comment just before it.

[RadicalModerate]

If Ganga is "legalized" wouldn't all of the gangstas behind bars for related-activities have to be released and provided with lawyers to sue for wrongful imprisonment?
(FlashForward to Lawyers Office . . . Guy pounding on door . . . "Dave???" . . . "Dave's not here, man . . . i mean mon" . . .)

[kevinpate]

If Ganga is "legalized" wouldn't all of the gangstas behind bars for related-activities have to be released and provided with lawyers to sue for wrongful imprisonment?
(FlashForward to Lawyers Office . . . Guy pounding on door . . . "Dave???" . . . "Dave's not here, man . . . i mean mon" . . .)

Love the joke at the end. As to the earlier part, in a word ... nope.

[RadicalModerate]

Love the joke at the end. As to the earlier part, in a word ... nope.

So . . . in essence . . . you are saying--with the brief, yet non-redundant and wasteful, parsimony of words that are inherent to the elusive quality often attributed to art and, mostly, to wit:
"Say Nope to Dope"?

(objection, your honor: leading the witness . . . or the witless as the case may be or not . . . "dave" . . . "dave" . . . donde esta 'dave'? knockknockknock=)

[kevinpate]

LandrunOkie, recognizing reality is not the same as agreeing, or disagreeing, with a likely outcome.

As for any financial interest in the current laws remaining in place, nopers. If the law on pot changes, it changes. If it doesn't, it doesn't. I think the odds are extremely remote for legalization to happen in Oklahoma, but I'm not inclined to finance either camp. Now, if such a change were to occur, I am convinced the world will neither end in a fireball nor will it become all cotton candy and lollipops. It might have a lot more cheetos dust, and some dockets will be a tad less crowded, but that'll be about it.

I rarely visit Norman muni beyond the occasional child of a friend or friend of a child matter. However, I am aware that many substance offenses processed through there arise out of folks being in possession in a place that draws attention to them. Often times this includes sitting at a picnic table, or in a car in the parking lot, of a city park, long after the park is closed for the night. Why folks think parks are not regularly patrolled and that dark makes them invisible is beyond me, but it's rather common.

[Bunty]

As for any financial interest in the current laws remaining in place, nopers. If the law on pot changes, it changes. If it doesn't, it doesn't. I think the odds are extremely remote for legalization to happen in Oklahoma, but I'm not inclined to finance either camp. Now, if such a change were to occur, I am convinced the world will neither end in a fireball nor will it become all cotton candy and lollipops. It might have a lot more cheetos dust, and some dockets will be a tad less crowded, but that'll be about it.

In the mid 1990s, probably a lot of people thought it would be a long time, if ever, when lotteries, casinos, and tattoo application would be legalized in Oklahoma. But within 10 years, those things got legalized. So I think marijuana will be legalized in Oklahoma before too many years. It will reflect how the rise of the Internet has helped speed up the need for cultural change. But the highly intense apathy by the public in Oklahoma regarding the need for significant drug law reform presents quite a hindrance. Maybe interest in that can be sparked, if a lot of positive new stories arise out of the good legalizing marijuana has done for Washington and Colorado. Negative stories, like children frequently bringing pot to school sure won't help.

[BlackmoreRulz]

Penny, I guess my rationality is that the 15 yr old girl would be able to make a more rational decision while being high over being drunk.

[PennyQuilts]

Penny, I guess my rationality is that the 15 yr old girl would be able to make a more rational decision while being high over being drunk.

I couldn't disagree, more. In fact, for many, pot acts as an aphrodisiac. I'm just saying...

[Stew]

I couldn't disagree, more. In fact, for many, pot acts as an aphrodisiac. I'm just saying...

Hogwash

[PennyQuilts]

Hogwash

Oh, sweetie...

[ThomPaine]

Thanks for the answers. Like I mentioned, I was vehemently opposed to the legalization, but the more research I do, and the more folks in law enforcement I talk to, the more I think I may change my mind. As of now, I'm a fence sitter. I wouldn't vote for a politician one way or the other based on this issue.

I'm open minded, but cautious (being a parent). Legal or not, I would prefer my kids avoid it, as with tobacco. Label me a hypocrite, but I don't mind them drinking once they reach 21, as long as they obey the law.

Thanks again, overall, a pretty mature discussion on the topic!

[RadicalModerate]

well . . . i guess it isn't too late to ban--or re-approve?--smoked oysters . . . libido-wise or -stupid . . .
(just out of curiosity . . . is it the oysters themselves or the string of pearls for a necklace that makes oysters famous?)

[RadicalModerate]

As soon as one introduces a strawman into the mix I imagine a character out of the Wizard of Oz . . .
protecting the lush marijuana fields of [select your location] . . . O! If he only had a brain AND a heart . . .
You know . . . Like the crew on Trailer Park Boys . . . eh . . .=)