Friends for a Better Boulevard

[Spartan]

I repeat my previous comments. Traffic circles can look pretty and lend themselves to fountains and statues. That's all they're good for.

First of all, I think you're discounting the value of beautification. The fact is that this proposal creates a feasible opportunity for landmark beautification that nothing else creates. You could build a Space Needle replica like Las Vegas and still not get the authentic urbanism value of this traffic circle.

Furthermore, other things that you're completely over-looking: (1) Safer, more efficient traffic management; (2) Heightened sense of place; (3) Impetus for major infill development; (4) Connectivity to the existing street grid; (5) Better downtown gateway from essentially ALL I-40 traffic; (6) An opportunity to actually create the boulevard we were sold; (7) Integrating the Farmer's Public Market with downtown rather than further separating it and preventing its revitalization; (8) A really cool way to pay homage to Oklahoma's veterans (we have nothing in the way of veteran memorials that so many other peer cities have, like KC).

[Spartan]

I was just excited to have a rendering to try and sell the officials on, I was actually not expecting the masterpiece that this ended up being, I am stunned. Even though I was in a bad mood from the Thunder game, that did not last long after seeing this.


Can you guys imagine this with a backdrop of our city's already-spectacular skyline from the west, rising above the Market Circle?

[ljbab728]

First of all, I think you're discounting the value of beautification. The fact is that this proposal creates a feasible opportunity for landmark beautification that nothing else creates. You could build a Space Needle replica like Las Vegas and still not get the authentic urbanism value of this traffic circle.

Furthermore, other things that you're completely over-looking: (1) Safer, more efficient traffic management; (2) Heightened sense of place; (3) Impetus for major infill development; (4) Connectivity to the existing street grid; (5) Better downtown gateway from essentially ALL I-40 traffic; (6) An opportunity to actually create the boulevard we were sold; (7) Integrating the Farmer's Public Market with downtown rather than further separating it and preventing its revitalization; (8) A really cool way to pay homage to Oklahoma's veterans (we have nothing in the way of veteran memorials that so many other peer cities have, like KC).

Spartan, a few of your points are valid. But, as I've said over and over, I've experienced personally countless traffic circles both as a pedestrian and a driver and never found them to feel safer (especially as a pedestrian) or more efficient. I think the other things you desire can be accomplished without a traffic circle.

[Spartan]

Well, right now, one is either for the earthen ramp or for the traffic circle. Ljbab, you're welcome to start a third competing movement with an alternative proposal for this site, but Friends for a Better Boulevard has been successful in turning this into a 2-option debate, rather than the default acceptance of ODOT's proposal.

Obviously the movement is still young, a lot of work is left in order to persevere and save the western side of downtown, and I think Bob Kemper will have some plans for how to take it to the streets that I am anxious to see. I personally think he ought to follow MTP's model. I see no reason why there shouldn't be a traffic circle committee, a la the streetcar committee.

[OKCisOK4me]

I was just excited to have a rendering to try and sell the officials on, I was actually not expecting the masterpiece that this ended up being, I am stunned. Even though I was in a bad mood from the Thunder game, that did not last long after seeing this.


Can you guys imagine this with a backdrop of our city's already-spectacular skyline from the west, rising above the Market Circle?

Having seen this on the Facebook group...yes, it could be a shock to ODOT. We need to find a way to get Andrew, or at least his presentation to the round table (pun intended)!

[ljbab728]

Well, right now, one is either for the earthen ramp or for the traffic circle. Ljbab, you're welcome to start a third competing movement with an alternative proposal for this site, but Friends for a Better Boulevard has been successful in turning this into a 2-option debate, rather than the default acceptance of ODOT's proposal.

Obviously the movement is still young, a lot of work is left in order to persevere and save the western side of downtown, and I think Bob Kemper will have some plans for how to take it to the streets that I am anxious to see. I personally think he ought to follow MTP's model. I see no reason why there shouldn't be a traffic circle committee, a la the streetcar committee.

I see absolutely no reason why it should be a ramp or a traffic circle. That just makes no sense. I'm all for efforts to change the plans as currently drawn but a traffic circle is not necessary to do that. Count me in as a volunteer for the no traffic circle committee. I would even favor a square over a circle.

[OKCisOK4me]

Boo you LJ

[ljbab728]

Boo you LJ

I call it as I see it and I am a big supporter of changing the current plans. You may not have had the personal experience with traffic circles that I've had. People tend to get blown away by beautiful renderings with thinking about the realities of the plan.

[OKCisOK4me]

Sorry...I haven't been neglected by a traffic circle. Did you get in a wreck looking at the Scissor Tail Flaycatcher mating ritual bridge on I-40? My bad...

[Spartan]

LJ, the non traffic circle option is the earthen ramp. That is the other choice. But if you are really convinced that the hard work put in by the Friends for a Better Boulevard movement is not the right course of action for the community, then you really should draw up an alternate proposal of a crazy 5-way intersection or what have you. Currently, the option you seek does not exist and will not unless you force it into the public discourse.

As it is, any opposition to this will be seen as support for the earthen ramp, and I'm not sure you want your opposition to traffic circles misconstrued as support for the earthen ramp. I count myself firmly as a friend of the Better Boulevard.

[OKCisOK4me]

Earthen ramp = Miami Heat. No one wants that crap to win...

[Spartan]

I would more accurately compare the desirability of the earthen ramp to the Muslim Brotherhood.

[Snowman]

I still like the idea of just getting it back to the grid. From the west bring it back to grade at Fred Jones or Shartel and flow into California (western is out since it would be redundant possibly worse option for people to use than i40 interchange with it), from the east have it flow into 3rd/old i40. It is not like anyone will drive the entire distance anyway, the exits/entrances on the other side make more sense if you are coming/going from/to the interstate.

[soonerguru]

I was just excited to have a rendering to try and sell the officials on, I was actually not expecting the masterpiece that this ended up being, I am stunned. Even though I was in a bad mood from the Thunder game, that did not last long after seeing this.


Can you guys imagine this with a backdrop of our city's already-spectacular skyline from the west, rising above the Market Circle?

This is absolutely fabulous. Stunning. This is what happens when standards are raised. Wow.

[Hutch]

Agreed...great vision and work.

[Just the facts]

Does this plan include making the I40 off ramps go to Reno instead of an elevated road?

[Spartan]

I personally think it would make sense to merge Reno and Exchange in the approach to the Market Circle, but do it without demolishing a single historic building on Klein, and then have Reno enter the circle in the west Boulevard's place. That frees up room on the radius for Western to enter the Market Circle, which I can't underscore the importance of, because Western does carry all of the traffic between downtown and I-40.

It's traffic counts have risen exponentially since I-40 opened. Western will probably carry most of the traffic counts that actually justify this kind of infill development around the circle. That street is also the link to the south side.

[Larry OKC]

Currently plans anticipate reaching grade at approximately Lee Avenue on the west and Oklahoma Avenue on the east. However, portions of the new Boulevard must be elevated so connections can be made to the existing I-44 and I-35 interchanges.

looks like that is a distance of only 8 to 10 blocks and falls outside the elaborate Traffic Circle plan???

Even though I dislike traffic circles with a passion and will avoid them whenever possible, am not trying to put the idea down as it looks nice, but what would the cost of that design be? We had impressive renderings of Project 180 and the things that were going to be included, then budget realities hit and even parts that weren't scrapped, were severely cut back. What is the probability that even if this was approved by ODOT that it would come anywhere close to looking like this when they were done with it??

[Bellaboo]

I really like the circles. Seen my share in Europe, Barcelona is full of them, even some of the city residential 2 lane streets have them. As far as pedestrian navigation, they had street lights that allowed the people safe crossing through the traffic, so there is really no saftey issues if done right.

I believe it would be cost effective without the complete traffic signalization that a regular intersection would have, both on initial installation and maintenance.

[Larry OKC]

What does the typical traffic signal cost? I would think that any part of that rendering (sculpture, fountain, landscaping etc) would be about the same as the traffic signals. For safety reasons, aren't pedestrians going to need some type of signals in those crosswalks? It looks rather massive (much larger than the ones along 10th street...wouldn't that require more land? Would it require the elimination of existing businesses/buildings already there? I just think there are a lot of unanswered questions with this is all.

Again, don't get me wrong, it looks very nice and I have seen some attractive ones elsewhere too. I guess the question here, at this location, is there a high concentration of pedestrians utilizing this park/plaza in the middle of the street(s)?

I agree with other posters here, it is not a matter of what ODOT is going full steam ahead with and just this proposal. There are other options that need to be explored, like eliminating the need for the traffic circle by returning the intersection to the street GRID.

[Urban Pioneer]

Apparently this has already made it to David Streb at ODOT and some of the Council. So they are aware that the concepts are out there. I just had lunch with Bob. I didn't know that this was Cuatro's modern interpretation of Bob's idea for Layton's proposed Lincoln Boulevard "Arch de Triumph". Pretty cool interpretation for the modern day.

Bob is thinking comprehensive War Memorial for all US wars including Iraq and Afghanistan. If the circle is "doable" within the City-ODOT engineering sphere, that's a pretty great concept in my opinion to gain public support.

[Bellaboo]

What does the typical traffic signal cost? I would think that any part of that rendering (sculpture, fountain, landscaping etc) would be about the same as the traffic signals. For safety reasons, aren't pedestrians going to need some type of signals in those crosswalks?

I'm sure a big fountain or sculpture would cost more than a traffic signal...but some type of feature would be asthetically pleasant to visit. A simple overhead pedestian walkway could eliminate signals altogether. One of those circles in Barcelona was 10 lanes of traffic.....and it works.

[BoulderSooner]

the traffic circle would replace a new bridge .. so i would bet the money would not be that far off

[Hutch]

One of the other benefits to the design is that it re-invigorates Exchange and Classen as the boulevards they once were. Also, nice solution to drop Reno a block and solve its integration with the roundabout.

[Larry OKC]

Do you realize how many "simple overhead pedestrian walkways" you are talking about. That is going to add to the cost, much less take away from the attractive design they have going there. Would have to see the numbers on all of it to see if it is feasible not only to build as rendered but to maintain