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Thread: Joining Tulsa Soon at This Rate

  1. #1
    Sooner&RiceGrad Guest

    Default Joining Tulsa Soon at This Rate

    We will be joining Tulsa soon, at this rate. File us under that list of cities that had a good thing going, but squandered it, if we don't change our act.

    MAPS was nice. So what? MAPS is over!

    City leaders are shooting towards a path of corruption. From OCURA's latest decision, to failing to already have another MAPS underway, to shunning our opportunity at having light rail.

    We have nothing but Bricktown moving right now. We came pretty close to loosing our city's most important corporate resident. And when was the last time we built a skyscraper? Could someone show me those HIGH occupancy rates again!

    Losers. I hate to say that. We are a great city. But we are only midway in hitting our potential, and city leaders want to stop and greedily ruin D'town OKC for their benefit.

    We aren't even taking measures to make our suburbs more attractive!

    I am not kidding. Mick Cornett is the only non-corrupt official we have. Exclude Henry, he isn't corrupt, but stupidity makes up.

    OKC: You have to keep going! Don't stop. This forum is nothing but a bunch of bloggers that bicker a lot, but at least we have a vision. You don't. Not right now at least.

  2. #2
    Patrick Guest

    Default Re: Joining Tulsa Soon at This Rate

    Quote Originally Posted by Sooner&RiceGrad
    We will be joining Tulsa soon, at this rate. File us under that list of cities that had a good thing going, but squandered it, if we don't change our act.

    MAPS was nice. So what? MAPS is over!

    City leaders are shooting towards a path of corruption. From OCURA's latest decision, to failing to already have another MAPS underway, to shunning our opportunity at having light rail.

    We have nothing but Bricktown moving right now. We came pretty close to loosing our city's most important corporate resident. And when was the last time we built a skyscraper? Could someone show me those HIGH occupancy rates again!

    Losers. I hate to say that. We are a great city. But we are only midway in hitting our potential, and city leaders want to stop and greedily ruin D'town OKC for their benefit.

    We aren't even taking measures to make our suburbs more attractive!

    I am not kidding. Mick Cornett is the only non-corrupt official we have. Exclude Henry, he isn't corrupt, but stupidity makes up.

    OKC: You have to keep going! Don't stop. This forum is nothing but a bunch of bloggers that bicker a lot, but at least we have a vision. You don't. Not right now at least.
    Corruption in our city government? Well, show me a government that doesn't have some good ole boy tactics involved. Even our federal government plays similar tactics.

    MAPS over? No! MAPS for Kids (MAPS for Kids) is just getting underway. The city probably won't even consider launching another MAPS until years from now when the MAPS for Kids tax expires. You have to complete one MAPS program before you can start another. Sure, it's time to brainstorm for MAPS III now, and our city leaders are doing that, but you can't bring something to the people of OKC until closer to the time.

    About light rail......although we will need light rail in the future, the demand just isn't there right now for commuter rail, and probably won't be for another 10 years at the least.

    Losing KerrMcGee wouldn't have been OKC's fault. That's a decision that was discussed by the shareholders and corporate board. To be real honest, I wouldn't find fault in them moving to Houston...afterall, that's where they do most of their drilling. I'm really surprised they've stayed this long.

    Skyscrapers are really a thing of the past. Most companies are now building office parks instead. There are still a few office towers being built in dense downtown areas, but we're not going to get something like that built here with the current vacancy rates we have downtown. To see the high occupancy rates, check out Price Edward's website. I'm wanting to say occupancy was around 60% downtown.

  3. Default Re: Joining Tulsa Soon at This Rate

    Oklahoma City will always catch itself before falling. Our city has always thought big, even in the face of failure. That quality alone is what makes me proud to call Oklahoma City home.

    Things won't go well all of the time. There is no such thing as a perfect city. If so, there would be no mistakes to learn from. OCURA did make a bad call, but at least we know now about OCURA's decision-making process, and what to do with the agency.

    Salivating at every development decision made, good and bad, is what makes a city a "loser". We are far from that.
    Continue the Renaissance!!!

  4. #4

    Default Re: Joining Tulsa Soon at This Rate

    Many of the local corporations either don't need a skyscraper or have built an alternative elsewhere that better serves their needs.

    OPUBCO for example built their 'skyscraper' on Broadway & Britton next to their production facility. That will serve their needs for the next 50 years or so, it seems.

    Chesapeake's complex on Western & Classen is another example. If the powers at Chesapeake wanted to, they could have built the nicest, tallest skyscraper in downtown. They chose instead to build a large office park that grows according to the companies growth rate.

    If we see a new skyscraper downtown, Devon will be the one to build it...

  5. #5
    Patrick Guest

    Default Re: Joining Tulsa Soon at This Rate

    Quote Originally Posted by John
    If we see a new skyscraper downtown, Devon will be the one to build it...
    I agree. Actually though, I wouldn't be surprised to see Devon purchase Kerr McGee tower here in a few years. I hate to be pessimistic, but I don't see KerrMcGee staying in OKC for the long haul.

  6. #6
    ErnieBall Guest

    Default Re: Joining Tulsa Soon at This Rate

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick
    I agree. Actually though, I wouldn't be surprised to see Devon purchase Kerr McGee tower here in a few years. I hate to be pessimistic, but I don't see KerrMcGee staying in OKC for the long haul.
    Hehe, I just made a similar post in the Kerr-McGee thread a minute ago. I should have read this one before posting.

    "I've actually heard a rumor that Devon is interested in McGee Tower and has approached KMG with an offer to swap buildings. Apparently Devon has expanded beyond the space available in its current building and could use the extra office space. This is, of course, purely speculation, but it would make sense for both companies after the spin-off/sale of Chemical and resulting decrease in KMG OKC employees."

  7. Default Re: Joining Tulsa Soon at This Rate

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick
    I agree. Actually though, I wouldn't be surprised to see Devon purchase Kerr McGee tower here in a few years. I hate to be pessimistic, but I don't see KerrMcGee staying in OKC for the long haul.
    Unfortunatly, that is one of Oklahoma City's problems. These corporate raiders see Oklahoma City as a pasty. They perform a hostile takeover of a corporation, and then move it out of Oklahoma City. The city fails to hold firm and fight to keep the corporation here. As long as this is the way, we will continue to lose our long time corporations.

    I would not be surpirsed if Devon, Chesapeak, Mackinburg-Duncan, Sonic and some others leave Oklahoma City after hostile takeovers.

    This really applies statewide.

  8. #8
    Patrick Guest

    Default Re: Joining Tulsa Soon at This Rate

    Quote Originally Posted by mranderson
    Unfortunatly, that is one of Oklahoma City's problems. These corporate raiders see Oklahoma City as a pasty. They perform a hostile takeover of a corporation, and then move it out of Oklahoma City. The city fails to hold firm and fight to keep the corporation here. As long as this is the way, we will continue to lose our long time corporations.

    I would not be surpirsed if Devon, Chesapeak, Mackinburg-Duncan, Sonic and some others leave Oklahoma City after hostile takeovers.

    This really applies statewide.
    Really, there's not a good track record for corporations that have left the state, other than for maybe Gaylord Entertainment. KMG has most of their offices in Houston now and they're not doing well. Fleming left the state, and they completely went under.

  9. #9
    Sooner&RiceGrad Guest

    Default Re: Joining Tulsa Soon at This Rate

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick
    Corruption in our city government? Well, show me a government that doesn't have some good ole boy tactics involved. Even our federal government plays similar tactics.
    Howabout a city gov't we have to keep an eye on. Houston.

    MAPS over? No! MAPS for Kids (MAPS for Kids) is just getting underway. The city probably won't even consider launching another MAPS until years from now when the MAPS for Kids tax expires. You have to complete one MAPS program before you can start another. Sure, it's time to brainstorm for MAPS III now, and our city leaders are doing that, but you can't bring something to the people of OKC until closer to the time.
    MAPS for kids is a great idea. Our awful inner city schools are really benefitting. I believe this summer they will tear down U.S. Grant High School and rebuild, what prooves to be an integral part of the plan. Tear down the ghetto schools. Covered. Good.

    About light rail......although we will need light rail in the future, the demand just isn't there right now for commuter rail, and probably won't be for another 10 years at the least.
    Very true. Though I thouroughly believe we could support light/commuter rail right now.

    Kerr McGee wouldn't have been OKC's fault.
    Was Phillips Tulsa's fault? And, yes I know they were headquartered in Bartlesville, but honestly, even Emporis considers them a Tulsa suburb.

    Skyscrapers are really a thing of the past. Most companies are now building office parks instead.
    Many do, but skyscrapers are not a thing of the past. Just look at Omaha! What they are doing with their skyline is incredible. Omaha is small stuff compared to our city. While our skyline, being as dated as it is, is much better for cities of our size (We are much larger than Oma), we should be building skyscrapers. Look at Fort Worth. Memphis. Nashville. New Orleans. Etc, etc.

    To see the high occupancy rates, check out Price Edward's website. I'm wanting to say occupancy was around 60% downtown.
    They are posted somewhere on this forum I believe. I will do a search after I post. And from what I remember of seeing those, Class A office space is at a premium right now in Downtown OKC. Class C office space is what is hurting.

  10. #10
    Sooner&RiceGrad Guest

    Default Re: Joining Tulsa Soon at This Rate

    Also, we would be much better off if we had a corporate raider within our city.

  11. #11
    Patrick Guest

    Default Re: Joining Tulsa Soon at This Rate

    Quote Originally Posted by Sooner&RiceGrad
    Class C office space is what is hurting.
    I only wish they'd convert First National to an apartment building. That would take a lot of Class C office space off the market, plus convert an OKC landmark into something we truly need downtown....housing.

  12. #12
    Sooner&RiceGrad Guest

    Default Re: Joining Tulsa Soon at This Rate

    I have always felt this. Do the same to the old Oklahoman building too is my thoughts.

  13. Default Re: Joining Tulsa Soon at This Rate

    What is the current vacancy rate for class A space downtown and what is the point in which a speculative office building could be justified being built?

  14. #14
    swake Guest

    Default Re: Joining Tulsa Soon at This Rate

    These numbers are not just for class A, but the numbers overall are so bad I canít believe that class A is very good.

    Data from cbreok.com

    Oklahoma Cityís vacancy rate overall at year end 2004 was 21.66%, which was down from 23.45% at the end of í03. This is on 15,017,369 total square feet of leaseable office space in metro OKC. Downtown OKCís vacancy rate was 32.09% on 5,634,746 sq ft up from 30.34% at the end of 2003,

    As a comparison,
    Tulsaís overall vacancy rate for the metroís 20,443,435 sq ft of office space was 18.31% up from 14.09% at the end of 2003. Downtown was about the same, for 8,222,435 sq ft of space Tulsaís downtown vacancy rate was 18.71% up from 16.62% at the end of 2003. I included downtown Tulsaís new (as of 2003) 770,000 sq ft Wiltel building downtown, CBRE reported Wiltel has placed 200,000 sq ft of their building for lease but hadnít included the numbers so I added it in and adjusted the vacancy rates.

    Tulsaís report, I guess since itís a larger market, was more detailed and showed an overall downtown class ďAĒ vacancy rate of just over 10%. OKCís probably is nowhere near that good with an overall downtown vacancy rate nearing 33% of total space. I donít really see any new major buildings going up in downtown OKC any time soon unless a company decides to build their own.

    Tulsa hasnít had a speculative building in a long time either. The Wiltel building was built for Wiltel in 2003, since then there have been three office conversions of warehouse space to office space, but each is for a tenant owner. KMO development just completed one on the south side of downtown, Wallace, which I think is an engineering firm is converting a large warehouse in the Brady district now and New Media Worx, an ad firm is going to do a smaller warehouse soon, also in the Brady area.

  15. Default Re: Joining Tulsa Soon at This Rate

    Quote Originally Posted by swake
    OKCís probably is nowhere near that good with an overall downtown vacancy rate nearing 33% of total space. I donít really see any new major buildings going up in downtown OKC any time soon unless a company decides to build their own.
    The difference between Tulsa and OKC, and I definitely give this one to Tulsa, is that all five towers in downtown Tulsa that are 30+ floors are in good condition and are more leasable.
    Two of Oklahoma City's downtown skyscrapers, the 32-floor City Place and 33-floor First National Tower have not seen any major overhaul whatsoever, and both of these buildings are aging quickly. Who'd want to rent space in these two buildings?

    The 52-floor BOK Tower, 41-floor First National Tower, 36-floor Mid-Continent Tower and the other two (can't think of them off the top of my head right now) don't see these problems.

    In Oklahoma City, only the 30-floor Kerr McGee Tower***, 36-floor Bank One Tower and 31-floor Oklahoma Tower are attractive properties, and have low to no vacancy. Leadership Square, Oklahoma City's largest office building (the property that was originally to be 60 stories but was split into two towers at 22 and 15 floors respectively) is the best looking property downtown and also sees low vacancy.

    Like swake said, no major buildings will go up in downtown OKC unless a company decides to build their own. The only hope left for Oklahoma City's art deco First National Tower is to convert it into residential. City Place still has a chance at leasing office space, since it is better kept.

    ***Kerr McGee Tower is private property and is not considered "leasable space" since the entire building belongs to Kerr McGee. The 30-floor tower is generally not included in market surveys.
    Continue the Renaissance!!!

  16. #16
    swake Guest

    Default Re: Joining Tulsa Soon at This Rate

    The Wiltel building is also privately owned, but since I had numbers for it, I added it back in. I didnít have numbers for the massive Williams complex that includes The BOK tower and the office space that was the Williams Center Forum mall. I think that complex is over two million square ft by itself.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Joining Tulsa Soon at This Rate

    Pulse, you make good points about several of downtown OKC's tallest buildings.

    I'd also add that one of the reasons neither of the older towers has been renovated is because even doing so would still not make them very competitive with several other office builidngs.

    They have some inherent issues, like smaller floor sizes, lots of interior columns, etc. If I'm not mistaken, a former owner of First National (Irish Realty Corp.) litterally gave the building to a charity not that long ago... It has that little real value.


    Modifying for hotel or residential use might be a better way to go.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Joining Tulsa Soon at This Rate

    After researching downtownguy's blog, he did a great job of summarizing the recent, depressing history of 1st National Center. John Kennedy (Irish Realty) and a partner paid only $872,000 (!) for the building in the late 80's, then donated it to Feed the Children.

    They in turn sold it to another developer who also failed to put together any serious redevelopment project.

    I love that building but there are clearly loads of problems with it.

  19. Default Re: Joining Tulsa Soon at This Rate

    I do agree. The tower may have to be gutted before it can be turned into residential. That alone will take a lot of money. I hate to say it, but if the floorplans and structure make it impossible to adapt the tower for any feasible use, it may have to come down. Vacancy at First National (arcade included) is at 67%. I'm guessing the tower is virtually empty.

    In Tulsa, the Mid-Continent tower was actually expanded. 20 floors were added above the original 16 in 1984, and the interior is lavish and appealing. Mid-Continent Tower is 36 floors and 516 feet high. Chase Tower in downtown Oklahoma City is 36 floors, 500 feet built in 1971. Both buildings are about the same height. No doubt, Mid-Continent Tower is occupied, as it has modern office space. Chase Tower is full.
    Continue the Renaissance!!!

  20. #20
    Patrick Guest

    Default Re: Joining Tulsa Soon at This Rate

    Just FYI:

    Downtown OKC's overall vacancy rate: 31.7%
    Class A vacancy: 16.9%
    Class B: 20.2%
    Class C: 60.7%

  21. #21
    swake Guest

    Default Re: Joining Tulsa Soon at This Rate

    When the Cosden became the Midcon Tower it was not just adding floors. The lower floors were completely gutted and were doubled in size with an addition to the back of the Cosden. The 20 floors were then added over the top of both sections. For the most part all that is left of the Cosden is the lobby, the superstructure and the faÁade, the Midcon is a modern office tower and I believe it is close to being fully leased. It is my favorite of Tulsaís tall buildings.
    http://www.midcontinenttower.com


    Your First National is more similar to Tulsaís Philtower or 320 S Boston buildings
    http://www.philtower.com/
    http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=122915

  22. #22
    Patrick Guest

    Default Re: Joining Tulsa Soon at This Rate

    When you look at it, First National would actually make a pretty nice apartment building. It already has the retail and restaurants on the lower level, something common in high rise apartment complexes. The upper floors could be converted to loft apartments and the Grand Banking Hall could be used for an open air lobby with plush furniture. A nice restaurant with a banking theme could even consider locating in the Grand Banking Hall. There are all sorts of possible uses for the Grand Banking Hall.

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