Mystery Tower( speculation, news and ideas) post here!

[lasomeday]

Corporate offices aren't going to leave Houston for OKC for three main reasons.

1. Corporate tax structure is better in Texas than in Oklahoma.
2. Direct international flights are more abundant in Houston and Dallas.
3. Most see the mass of companies as an advantage to attacting experienced employees. (We are getting better at this one.)

The first one will take an act of congress! OK not federal and the second probably will never happen, but with #1 changing it could help #2 as US companies would be inclined to move here.

[OKCbrew]

Corporate offices aren't going to leave Houston for OKC for three main reasons.

1. Corporate tax structure is better in Texas than in Oklahoma.
2. Direct international flights are more abundant in Houston and Dallas.
3. Most see the mass of companies as an advantage to attacting experienced employees. (We are getting better at this one.)

The first one will take an act of congress! OK not federal and the second probably will never happen, but with #1 changing it could help #2 as US companies would be inclined to move here.

Just out of curiosity, how is #1 changing? And what makes the tax structure in OK less attractive? I ask because I don't know. All I know is that in Sim City you lower the $$$ commercial tax to get tall buildings!

[adaniel]

You have to keep in mind that most (but not all) Texans were brainwashed from birth that they are better by being bigger. They were butt hurt in 1958 when Alaska showed up, and it hurts so much when their football teams looses to any school from an inferior state.
I have a good friend from the DFW area, who worked up here in the late '90's before marrying an Okie girl and moving back. He always had nothing good to say about OKC until they visited this past summer. He made comments how the downtown was very pretty, well done and quite impressive since he'd left 15 years ago.

I couldn't believe it.....he'd seen the light, that there is life outside of Texas.

As a reformed Texan myself, this is so true its not even funny. I can't even tell you the crap I got when I decided to first attend OU, then stay in OKC after graduation. The arrogance some have down there is unreal. I remember a girl here who moved here from Amarillo and would not shut up about "Texas is so much better blah blah blah..." and I was like, "Um, need I remind you that you are from Amarillo"

Considering that Oklahoma is a net receiver of Texans now, I'm sure there has been plenty of exploding heads when people confront the reality that there is a world north of the Red River.

Personally I would rather put up with the brutal summers than the ever-present threat of an F5 tornado here during the spring months.

The vast majority of people in this state have never personally experienced a tornado, much less an F4/5 one. Now the hailstorms on the other hand.....

In addition to all that humidity, Houston can have some very frightening flash flooding, since its pretty much a concrete slab built on a swamp. I've experienced it myself. I would much rather worry about tornadoes than that.

[cagoklahoma]

I like Houston, but their downtown seems to experience similar problems with downtown OKC. After 5pm, it's a ghost town when compared to daytime. I took a picture of the downtown Macy's hours, 9:30-6:00 M-F, 9:30-5:30 Sat, & Closed on Sunday. It's all about the suburban life style in this part of the country. I will say to Houston's credit, with its flaws, at least it's not Dallas. Dallas has a "Trashy Texas" feel which is complete with the Dale Earnhardt "Gone to Race in a Better Place" collection dinnerware, where Houston doesn't and I appreciate that about Houston. Keep it classy Houston!

[Skyline]

Actually, it's 34 days, 23 hours, 38 minutes...

Generic Calendar/Clock - Countdown to Apr 5, 2013 9:04 AM in Oklahoma City

How soon will Okctalk (Pete or someone else) have the real inside scoop to the "Mystery"?

[Bellaboo]

He actually said within the next '30 days', so the clock is a little late being April 5th.

[bchris02]

I like Houston, but their downtown seems to experience similar problems with downtown OKC. After 5pm, it's a ghost town when compared to daytime. I took a picture of the downtown Macy's hours, 9:30-6:00 M-F, 9:30-5:30 Sat, & Closed on Sunday. It's all about the suburban life style in this part of the country. I will say to Houston's credit, with its flaws, at least it's not Dallas. Dallas has a "Trashy Texas" feel which is complete with the Dale Earnhardt "Gone to Race in a Better Place" collection dinnerware, where Houston doesn't and I appreciate that about Houston. Keep it classy Houston!

I too prefer Houston to DFW, though many would disagree with you that Houston is classier. Houston and Dallas within Texas has somewhat of an OKC/Tulsa relationship on a larger scale. Houston is considered the larger but more down to earth, working class city while Dallas is known to be white collar, pretentious, culturally superior. Both cities however are large enough and well-balanced enough there is little need to go to DFW if you live in Houston and vice versa.

I found uptown Houston to be more active than downtown. One has to remember Houston has several "downtowns" scattered throughout the city, most of which have skylines larger than OKC's CBD. In Houston, you don't have to be downtown to find dense, urban living.

[Teo9969]

I too prefer Houston to DFW, though many would disagree with you that Houston is classier. Houston and Dallas within Texas has somewhat of an OKC/Tulsa relationship on a larger scale. Houston is considered the larger but more down to earth, working class city while Dallas is known to be white collar, pretentious, culturally superior. Both cities however are large enough and well-balanced enough there is little need to go to DFW if you live in Houston and vice versa.

I found uptown Houston to be more active than downtown. One has to remember Houston has several "downtowns" scattered throughout the city, most of which have skylines larger than OKC's CBD. In Houston, you don't have to be downtown to find dense, urban living.

Dallas may think they are culturally superior, but I have not seen that that is the case in the arts at all. I also think Houston's food is better.

[HangryHippo]

Dallas may think they are culturally superior, but I have not seen that that is the case in the arts at all. I also think Houston's food is better.

This has been my experience as well.

[MikeLucky]

Corporate offices aren't going to leave Houston for OKC for three main reasons.

1. Corporate tax structure is better in Texas than in Oklahoma.
2. Direct international flights are more abundant in Houston and Dallas.
3. Most see the mass of companies as an advantage to attacting experienced employees. (We are getting better at this one.)

The first one will take an act of congress! OK not federal and the second probably will never happen, but with #1 changing it could help #2 as US companies would be inclined to move here.

Don't forget that since they don't have state income tax, that helps them also attract more employees... That also hurts us in a comparison with any of the Texas metros...

My parents are currently selling their house in Wichita and getting ready to retire in the Houston area. When they first told me they were considering it, I groaned... But, for them it's a little different. They are looking in the Woodlands/Conroe area, and it's a definite given that they MIGHT drive south of the Woodlands maybe once or twice a year. Being retired, they will have everything they need within 5-10 miles of their house. And, I guess my folks and I are strange people, because we all LOVE the heat and humidity. Everytime we go down there for a weekend to look at real estate, we enjoy the weather.

Personally, I don't really want to live anywhere but OKC metro area, but my Dad is looking for somewhere with a good buyer friendly housing market where he can also play golf year round... so, it fits the bill for them. And, honestly I was really surprised by how nice the Woodlands area is.

[Praedura]

How soon will Okctalk (Pete or someone else) have the real inside scoop to the "Mystery"?

Tomorrow?!!!

probably not


But yeah, I'm hoping "the scoop" happens earlier than March 30. Surely somebody in-the-know will mess up along the way and accidentally reveal something.

[Pete]

Don't forget that since they don't have state income tax, that helps them also attract more employees... That also hurts us in a comparison with any of the Texas metros...

Texas has higher state sales and excise taxes.

In terms of total taxes, the two states are very close:

CNN/Money: Taxes state by state


Also, I believe Oklahoma's property taxes are lower and I know gasoline taxes are lower. I'm not sure when you consider all taxes paid -- especially as a property owner -- that Oklahoma doesn't have a lower overall tax rate.

[metro]

OK, the verdict is out, the mystery tower will be a Houston shaped parking lot.

[Bellaboo]

Texas has higher state sales and excise taxes.

In terms of total taxes, the two states are very close:

CNN/Money: Taxes state by state


Also, I believe Oklahoma's property taxes are lower and I know gasoline taxes are lower. I'm not sure when you consider all taxes paid -- especially as a property owner -- that Oklahoma doesn't have a lower total tax rate.

My sister has lived in the Ft Worth area for 20 years, she has half the house that I do and pays 4 times the property tax.

[adaniel]

Don't forget that since they don't have state income tax, that helps them also attract more employees... That also hurts us in a comparison with any of the Texas metros...

My parents are currently selling their house in Wichita and getting ready to retire in the Houston area. When they first told me they were considering it, I groaned... But, for them it's a little different. They are looking in the Woodlands/Conroe area, and it's a definite given that they MIGHT drive south of the Woodlands maybe once or twice a year. Being retired, they will have everything they need within 5-10 miles of their house. And, I guess my folks and I are strange people, because we all LOVE the heat and humidity. Everytime we go down there for a weekend to look at real estate, we enjoy the weather.

Just because there is no income tax doesn't mean the government doesn't get their money some way or another. In that light, make sure they completely understand the property tax structure down there.

As a rule, property taxes run about 3-3.5% of assessed value down there. It could vary wildly depending on what county or school district you are in. There's also MUD taxes if you live in a new development or outside the city limits. And homestead exemptions are not a given. So in a 250K home, even with a 15K exemption you are paying close to 8K in property taxes, if not more.

For these reasons and more you see a lot of people leave Houston when they retire, usually to the Hill Country or East Texas. Sounds like your parents will make due but just make sure they understand it.

[Pete]

Just looked it up...

Texas property tax rate is about 2 - 2.5 times (!!) that of Oklahoma.

[MikeLucky]

The have higher state sales and excise taxes.

In terms of total taxes, the two states are very close:

CNN/Money: Taxes state by state


Also, I believe Oklahoma's property taxes are lower. I'm not sure when you consider all taxes paid -- especially as a property owner -- that Oklahoma doesn't have a lower total tax rate.

Yeah, and their property taxes usually more than make up for the lack of state income taxes. We've done all the math and with the majority of their retirement being a federal government retirement (which also exempts them from state income taxes here in Oklahoma), and their age (which gives them a good break on the property taxes in Texas to Oklahoma levels), there really was almost no difference between the cost of living there versus here in Oklahoma.

The surprising difference we DID discover is that homes in the price range they are looking for, the north Houston suburb area actually has more home for the money than even here in OKC. Add in the fact that they have some pretty specific things they are looking for in a home, there is a much larger inventory for them to choose from down there. Combine that with warm weather year round, and that's why they are really focusing on ending up there.

[MikeLucky]

Just because there is no income tax doesn't mean the government doesn't get their money some way or another. In that light, make sure they completely understand the property tax structure down there.

As a rule, property taxes run about 3-3.5% of assessed value down there. It could vary wildly depending on what county or school district you are in. There's also MUD taxes if you live in a new development or outside the city limits. And homestead exemptions are not a given. So in a 250K home, even with a 15K exemption you are paying close to 8K in property taxes, if not more.

For these reasons and more you see a lot of people leave Houston when they retire, usually to the Hill Country or East Texas. Sounds like your parents will make due but just make sure they understand it.

I didn't see your post since I was typing up my reply to Pete... but yeah, we've done all the math. As retired folk, they get a really good break on the taxes. The homes they are looking at have normal tax bills of something like $8,000 to $12,000 a year depending on which house they go with... the break they get will bring them down to something like $5,000 to $8,000.

Here in Oklahoma, the taxes for the same range of house is about the same as the reduced amount for them in Texas... maybe a little bit lower. But, here in OK only my Mom's retirement is exempt from state income tax, but all of my Dad's is still subject to the taxes. So, all in all, it comes out about the same either way for their particular situation.

And, my Dad's brother lives in Tyler in a very similar sized home with pretty much the same things that my parents house will have. My folks think it's okay out there, but they really prefer the Woodlands/Conroe area more and even if it is going to cost them a tad more, they are okay with that.

[progressiveboy]

Houston is the 4th largest city in the U.S. and the city and MSA are about 4-5 times the size of OKC.

So, they are worlds apart but I would also say that Houston has tons of problems (traffic, polution and sprawl being chief among them) and thus I could see why companies might prefer the easy lifestyle offered by Oklahoma City.

Houston is one of my least favorite cities... It's got all the problems of L.A. and almost none of the benefits. I know I'm biased, but I would much, much rather live in OKC and I'm sure I am not alone.

Was traveling to Galveston last week and drove through Houston. To say the least, Houston traffic is horrendous. On the way back stopped in Houston driving on Loop 610 West traffic was god awful and this was in the evening around 8pm. However, lots to see and do in the city!

[progressiveboy]

I looked at the blog in question and they sound a little defensive. I guess that is normal. After all what would I expect them to say.....OKC is a great place to livve and by the way we may lose some of our corporate community to them! They don't want to hear that in Houston.

It did sound a little defensive, however, Houston or Texas for that matter is in no way jealous of Oklahoma City. Living in Dallas, my friends poke fun of me and say how could I have ever lived in a State like Oklahoma. To them, Oklahoma is a vast wasteland full of people who feel of the turnip truck. Texas has a better mindset for attracting businesses and has a great business climate. I wish Oklahoma could emmulate Texas in luring big companies and making the State more wealthy and diverse! Just 2 weeks ago, Amazon announced a major facility to open in the suburb of Coppell. Also, lots of California companies opening and moving offices to Texas.

[Pete]

Here is more from today's chat with Steve.

He seems to think an announcement is imminent for the Stage Center site:

Q. What's the latest on Mystery Tower? Now you can say there's nothing new and we can get the repeat questions started.

A. I believe an announcement will occur within the next 30 days.


Q. Question about who is going to build an office tower downtown ... just kidding. With all the speculation about the Stage Center site, how would a redevelopment of it affect the Arts Festival?

A. Redevelopment of the Stage Center site could very well have a significant impact on the annual Festival of the Arts. I cannot say whether the bid now under consideration by the owner of Stage Center, the Oklahoma City Community Foundation, calls for incorporation of the surrounding arts plaza and properties. But I can say that at least one of the original proposals did require clearance of the entire block. Don't be surprised if that ends up to be the case with the winning bid as well. The good news is that the Myriad Gardens, revamped as part of Project 180, is much better suited to incorporate more of the festival than it was in prior years. Of course, we could see an entirely different outcome where Stage Center stays in place. But that would be a big surprise to me.


Q.Is there a deadline on when the Stage Center offers and concepts are due? I heard they have narrowed it down to 3-5 different developments.

A. Negotiations are under way with a single party.

[UnFrSaKn]

Steve Lackmeyer: Announcement of new downtown OKC tower may come in the next 30 days | News OK

[Pete]

If negotiations are underway for the entire block, perhaps this is why everything has been "complex", to use Steve's term.

The City controls that entire block except for the little bit in blue, which is a small building held by a local man.

[Snowman]

BAHAHAHA @ them saying "Light Rail is not the answer...it will never get used".

Realistically, if they do light-rail or commuter rail they will probably need to pair that with a major sustained push for dense development near the stops for it to be well utilized.

[bchris02]

It did sound a little defensive, however, Houston or Texas for that matter is in no way jealous of Oklahoma City. Living in Dallas, my friends poke fun of me and say how could I have ever lived in a State like Oklahoma. To them, Oklahoma is a vast wasteland full of people who feel of the turnip truck. Texas has a better mindset for attracting businesses and has a great business climate. I wish Oklahoma could emmulate Texas in luring big companies and making the State more wealthy and diverse! Just 2 weeks ago, Amazon announced a major facility to open in the suburb of Coppell. Also, lots of California companies opening and moving offices to Texas.

Agreed. Houston is on an entirely different level than OKC. Comparing OKC to Houston is like comparing Poteau to OKC. OKC should compare itself to peer cities like Louisville, Memphis, Jacksonville, Richmond, etc. If Houston were to lose a HQ (or two) to OKC, Houston is so large and diverse it could easily absorb it. The positive effect it would have on OKC would be exponentially higher than the negative effect it would have on Houston. We are talking about a metro of 1.3 million vs one of 6 million.

The Houston metro is one single entity unlike DFW which is a metroplex, with Dallas and Ft Worth being two completely different yet connected entities. That along puts Houston ahead of DFW and the only larger beasts in the US are Chicago, LA, and New York.