AMR/American Announce 15,000 Job Cuts

[venture]

http://money.cnn.com/2012/01/31/news...obs/?hpt=us_c2

Major news coming out that could really slam the state and Tulsa.

Among the moves that American's unions expect include having aircraft flown overseas to low-cost maintenance facilities for the extensive overhaul required for planes on a regular basis. Most U.S. airlines, including United Continental (UAL, Fortune 500), Southwest Airlines (LUV, Fortune 500) and Delta Air Lines (DAL, Fortune 500), already have costly maintenance performed at overseas facilities.

Horwitz said there are two major American-owned facilities doing the heavy maintenance work -- one in Tulsa, Okla., which has 6,500 union members, and another outside of Dallas with 2,200 union members.

Welcome to Union Busting 101. It is American's turn this time.

[venture]

A.net has a thread on this, of course: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo....main/5374565/

Appears 1000 maintenance workers at Alliance Airport in Fort Worth (AFW), American's #2 base and is the one that employees 2200 workers, are apparently getting furloughed today.

Also these details were posted by someone else...

Agents, Reps, Planners - TBD

Fleet Service & Other TWU - Approximately 4,200

Flight Attendants - Approximately 2,300

Management/Support Staff - Approximately 1,400

Mechanics and Related - Approximately 4,600

Pilots - Approximately 400

Total - Approximately 13,000

If media reports are true that the AFW base gets axed...that would mean we could see up to 2,400 people at Tulsa getting furloughed as well.

[Pete]

Wow, that article says that AA is the only major carrier that does it's maintenance in the U.S and I'm sure that is the main thing they plan to change through bankruptcy.

Shipping most jobs overseas to cut costs could devastate Tulsa.

[venture]

Wow, that article says that AA is the only major carrier that does it's maintenance in the U.S and I'm sure that is the main thing they plan to change through bankruptcy.

Shipping most jobs overseas to cut costs could devastate Tulsa.

The article isn't 100% correct. Most of the major airlines have large maintenance bases, but they tend to not handle the longer and more extensive C & D Checks (essentially complete rebuild of the air frames). Delta I know still has their major TechOps base at Atlanta. US Airways I believe still has a base at PIT, even though the hub is long gone. Those are two that come right to mind. However, I do think most domestic work is either the A & B checks, or line checks that can be done overnight or during downtime for the aircraft.

[ou48A]

We have got to find ways to keep these high skilled jobs in our nation and bring back some of the jobs we have lost.

[MikeOKC]

We have got to find ways to keep these high skilled jobs in our nation and bring back some of the jobs we have lost.

Yeah, by preventing cash-rich corporations from going through bankruptcy - as nothing more than a wink and a nod in a process to bust labor unions and pass the pension buck.

I agree with the Pat Buchanan's on the right and the Bernie Sanders' on the left, that this stuff is anti-American, possibly criminal, and needs to be stopped. End the tax cuts that actually give business incentives to move out of the country, thereby sacrificing American jobs for higher profits and all in the name of so-called, "free trade."

[venture]

Yeah, by preventing cash-rich corporations from going through bankruptcy as nothing more than a wink in a process to bust labor unions and pass the pension buck.

Pretty much. Granted the use of the bankruptcy court by the airline industry has been nearly text book since US Airways made its first trip in. Since then United, Delta, and Northwest all used the method for union busting. Heck, I guess you could say it all started back with Frank Lorenzo in the 1980s, who became banned by the DOT from ever holding a leadership position in the airline industry after he gutted Continental, Eastern, People Express, New York Air and Frontier I.

[Just the facts]

End the tax cuts that actually give business incentives to move out of the country, thereby sacrificing American jobs for higher profits and all in the name of so-called, "free trade."

What tax-cuts are these?

[Swake2]

What tax-cuts are these?

A big one is that healthcare is a government run service in most countries where here the cost is paid for largely by employers.

[Oil Capital]

A big one is that healthcare is a government run service in most countries where here the cost is paid for largely by employers.

??? In what sense is that a tax cut?

[MikeOKC]

What tax-cuts are these?

Remove Incentives to Ship Jobs Overseas


Taxes: Current law allows companies to defer paying taxes on their overseas income indefinitely while deducting many of the expenses associated with moving offshore – this provides a double subsidy to U.S. companies that ship work overseas, effectively penalizing those companies that keep jobs in the U.S. Ending overseas tax breaks would generate an additional $7 to 12 billion a year in tax revenue and eliminate the perverse incentive to move work abroad to avoid paying taxes.

Public Contracts and Subsidies: Many companies that ship work overseas receive billions of dollars worth of government procurement contracts, subsidies and state and local tax abatements. These taxpayer-financed benefits usually come with very few strings attached, allowing companies to skim additional profits by performing publicly funded work overseas. Laws at the local, state and federal level should be reformed to ensure our taxpayer dollars are not subsidizing the destruction of American jobs.

Currency: A number of U.S. trading partners – China in particular – manipulate the value of their currency relative to the dollar to give their exports to the U.S. an artificial cost advantage, while making American products more expensive. This puts American producers and workers at an impossible cost disadvantage, effectively shutting them out of export markets and undermining their competitiveness at home. The U.S. must take immediate and aggressive action to ensure that the dollar is appropriately valued and withdraw trade benefits from countries that insist on manipulating their currency to unfair advantage, in violation of international trade rules.

Trade Laws: Domestic trade laws enable the government to redress unfair trade practices that give an illegitimate advantage to overseas production. These laws were intended to provide the first line of defense for American producers and workers, yet they are very poorly enforced. The World Trade Organization has weakened our ability to use these laws, and on-going trade negotiations may undermine these laws even further. We must vigorously enforce our domestic trade laws, defend them from challenge, and work to strengthen them in the future.

Trade Agreements: Trade deals such as the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) create new rights, but no responsibilities, for companies that ship jobs overseas. NAFTA contains strong legal protections for companies investing abroad and guaranteed access for their products into the U.S. market. But NAFTA provides no comparable protections for the rights of workers and the environment, allowing companies to escape their international obligations by shipping work overseas. We must fundamentally reform flawed trade rules to hold companies accountable for respecting workers’ rights no matter where they produce.

Exporting America - Outsourcing Solutions

This is all very relevant as to why we are losing these AMR jobs.

[Just the facts]

[indent] Remove Incentives to Ship Jobs Overseas


Taxes: Current law allows companies to defer paying taxes on their overseas income indefinitely while deducting many of the expenses associated with moving offshore – this provides a double subsidy to U.S. companies that ship work overseas, effectively penalizing those companies that keep jobs in the U.S. Ending overseas tax breaks would generate an additional $7 to 12 billion a year in tax revenue and eliminate the perverse incentive to move work abroad to avoid paying taxes.

Let's look at this first one. I work for a company that operates in 87 countires. They pay taxes on income earned in those 86 foreign countires. 75% of all their revenue is generated outside the US. If they never bring these profits back to the US why do you think the US government is entitled to any of that money?

[lasomeday]

Remove Incentives to Ship Jobs Overseas


Taxes: Current law allows companies to defer paying taxes on their overseas income indefinitely while deducting many of the expenses associated with moving offshore – this provides a double subsidy to U.S. companies that ship work overseas, effectively penalizing those companies that keep jobs in the U.S. Ending overseas tax breaks would generate an additional $7 to 12 billion a year in tax revenue and eliminate the perverse incentive to move work abroad to avoid paying taxes.

Public Contracts and Subsidies: Many companies that ship work overseas receive billions of dollars worth of government procurement contracts, subsidies and state and local tax abatements. These taxpayer-financed benefits usually come with very few strings attached, allowing companies to skim additional profits by performing publicly funded work overseas. Laws at the local, state and federal level should be reformed to ensure our taxpayer dollars are not subsidizing the destruction of American jobs.

Currency: A number of U.S. trading partners – China in particular – manipulate the value of their currency relative to the dollar to give their exports to the U.S. an artificial cost advantage, while making American products more expensive. This puts American producers and workers at an impossible cost disadvantage, effectively shutting them out of export markets and undermining their competitiveness at home. The U.S. must take immediate and aggressive action to ensure that the dollar is appropriately valued and withdraw trade benefits from countries that insist on manipulating their currency to unfair advantage, in violation of international trade rules.

Trade Laws: Domestic trade laws enable the government to redress unfair trade practices that give an illegitimate advantage to overseas production. These laws were intended to provide the first line of defense for American producers and workers, yet they are very poorly enforced. The World Trade Organization has weakened our ability to use these laws, and on-going trade negotiations may undermine these laws even further. We must vigorously enforce our domestic trade laws, defend them from challenge, and work to strengthen them in the future.

Trade Agreements: Trade deals such as the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) create new rights, but no responsibilities, for companies that ship jobs overseas. NAFTA contains strong legal protections for companies investing abroad and guaranteed access for their products into the U.S. market. But NAFTA provides no comparable protections for the rights of workers and the environment, allowing companies to escape their international obligations by shipping work overseas. We must fundamentally reform flawed trade rules to hold companies accountable for respecting workers’ rights no matter where they produce.

Exporting America - Outsourcing Solutions

This is all very relevant as to why we are losing these AMR jobs.

Wow, so you are the spokesperson for the Unions.

The reason these companies are failing is because of the Unions. They protect the lazy and don't reward hard workers. So, the hard workers leave and go to better jobs where they don't have to pay union dues. The lazy workers stay and continue to do bad work causing higher costs and less production. The companies continue to pay more for bad work because of the Union contracts that does not allow them to get rid of the bad employees. The only way to solve the problem is to go bankrupt. The bankrupt company get out of the union contracts and then layoff people. They hope to get rid of the lazy employees and then the process begins again.

[Oil Capital]

Yeah, by preventing cash-rich corporations from going through bankruptcy - as nothing more than a wink and a nod in a process to bust labor unions and pass the pension buck.

I agree with the Pat Buchanan's on the right and the Bernie Sanders' on the left, that this stuff is anti-American, possibly criminal, and needs to be stopped. End the tax cuts that actually give business incentives to move out of the country, thereby sacrificing American jobs for higher profits and all in the name of so-called, "free trade."

What silliness

[MikeOKC]

What silliness

Nothing silly about it. Many people believe just what I said in my post. What you really mean is you think it's silly. That's fine. There's a lot of uninformed posters here.

[Oil Capital]

Nothing silly about it. Many people believe just what I said in my post. What you really mean is you think it's silly. That's fine. There's a lot of uninformed posters here.

Indeed. Here are The facts: America has higher corporate tax rates than almost every other country. America is the only country that even purports to tax profits earned outside our territory. Other countries only tax income earned within their borders. Profits of American companies doing business in other countries are taxed by the country where earned, regardless of whether the profits are returned to America. The only tax "benefit" is entirely the result of the relatively low rates of taxation imposed by almost every other country in the world.

It is disingenuous, to say the least, to claim that we give tax cuts to companies for moving jobs overseas. if you have a problem with the rates of tax paid by American companies doing business elsewhere, you should take it up with those countries and try to get them to raise their corporate tax rates to equal ours.

[venture]

We have got to find ways to keep these high skilled jobs in our nation and bring back some of the jobs we have lost.

Start paying higher air fares? Current air fare levels can't support these skilled workers and the wages they are paid.

[Pete]

Tulsa World is now reporting the same numbers shown in post #2:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/a...0_AMRCor668203

[metro]

I'm all for getting rid of unions, but this is gonna suck for Tulsa.

[MikeOKC]

I'm all for getting rid of unions, but this is gonna suck for Tulsa.

You're for getting rid of unions? Ronald Reagan, while praising the organizing of workers at the Gdansk shipyards in communist Poland said that a hallmark for a democracy was the ability for workers to form free-trade unions.

Don't you like the idea of weekends? The 8-hour day? We have so much to be thankful to organized labor for. Are they perfect? No. Are corporations perfect? No. America's greatest time of prosperity was when union wages gave us a huge middle class, corporations didn't have free reign and still had some semblance of American pride.

[Pete]

If they lose 2,000+ jobs, it's going to suck for the entire state.

[MikeOKC]

If they lose 2,000+ jobs, it's going to suck for the entire state.

Absolutely. The Tulsa/OKC "thing" is off when we're talking about gaining or losing jobs. The state rises and falls with both. This could be really, really bad for Oklahoma.

[MikeOKC]

Metro, The more I've thought about your post, the more frustated I have become at America's lack of education on organized labor. It's one thing to be against union activity here or there for whatever reason - but getting rid of Unions? As I mentioned above, Ronald Reagan called unions one of the most elemental of human rights. If AMR makes a decision to move Tulsa jobs, don't blame the union - blame American Airlines and their union busting techniques that have been shameful.

Reagan On Unions

[lasomeday]

Metro, The more I've thought about your post, the more frustated I have become at America's lack of education on organized labor. It's one thing to be against union activity here or there for whatever reason - but getting rid of Unions? As I mentioned above, Ronald Reagan called unions one of the most elemental of human rights. If AMR makes a decision to move Tulsa jobs, don't blame the union - blame American Airlines and their union busting techniques that have been shameful.

Reagan On Unions

Unions are the downfall for manufacturing and many other industries in the US. Don't even get me started on how Unions have caused public schools to fall behind all other countries!

The problem with unions is the quality of service. People doing bad jobs don't get fired, and it keeps hard workers from being rewarded. It has become a socialist utopia! Everyone gets the same no matter what they do!

[venture]

Unions are the downfall for manufacturing and many other industries in the US. Don't even get me started on how Unions have caused public schools to fall behind all other countries!

The problem with unions is the quality of service. People doing bad jobs don't get fired, and it keeps hard workers from being rewarded. It has become a socialist utopia! Everyone gets the same no matter what they do!

I think one...we need to watch about taking this thread completely off topic in a union debate. However, I approach the issue as there are some unions that do a lot of good and there are some that don't do anything and cause negative effects. The airline industry is a unique animal and unions have done good in ensuring pilot/crew fatigue is addressed and satisfactory working conditions are present for ramp crew and others. They can cause an issue though when it comes to achieving cost savings to meet new economic challenges. US Airways right now still has a divided pilots and flight attendants group. However, the FAs have recently reached an agreement to finally merger the larger original US Airways chapter and the smaller old America West chapter together. The pilots though are still divided, thanks in part to the original US Airways crew being vastly more senior and much larger than the old America West crew. The pilots remaining split reduce the ability having an efficient schedule with aircraft and the ability to move flight crews around in the network.

They do protect people though especially in this climate. There is a high probably American is going to be bought out by US Airways. There are a lot of senior crews flying 777s that could very well get bumped out for more senior US Airways pilots. The unions though will, ideally, work together to handle the integration of the seniority for the pilots. Much like the Northwest/Delta merger. You had he risk of Delta pilots jumping in and bumping Northwest guys out of the 747...but I believe they fenced the 747s off so Delta pilots couldn't move into those slots for a few years.

There are plenty of negatives and good things when it comes to unions...it all comes down to how effective they membership makes them.