The area around the new crosstown highway. Will there be substantial new development?

[Just the facts]

It's not going to matter, Kerry. The US is going to implode in 8 years, remember?

Yes I know and people who need a car for the basic necessities of life are going to be between a rock and a hard place. Obama asked for an additional $1.2 trillion increase in the debt limit 2 days ago. That will get us 12 more months. We can't do that much longer. If we go to war with Iran we will burn though that in 4 months.

[Just the facts]

There are lots of expressways in and around Paris...I drive them frequently. London has a ring of motorways and arteries into the central city that feed to major streets. Plus, London was densely developed prior to the explosion of car transportation. Nevertheless, they have many limited access arteries. Brussels has an inner ring and arteries out. Rome has a number of expressways. Zurich is a totally different layout. Oslo, I haven't been, so I don't know. The rest I have driven in many times.

I said in the central city. The comment was directed at Quester who worried the inner city would be abandonded if urban freeways were removed. I simply cited example of urban areas that don't have freeways which are far from abandoned.

[Questor]

I'm not exactly sure where to begin with all of this. This will probably be my last post on the topic because I am not interested in participating in some sort of debate. All I am really saying is that no one can truly be 'right' on an issue like this, not you, not me, no one, because something like this is too complicated for simple solutions and I don't believe a solution that would work in one city would work in another.

My father immigrated from Europe; I'm familiar with a lot of what goes on over there and why someone would want to leave it for America. Contrary to popular belief there are a lot of highways across Europe... as we all probably know the Germans actually invented the first highways. What you see in countries like Germany, The Netherlands, Brussels, etc. is that there are many highways that criss-cross across the countries, and with older cities they sort of skirt around the city or downgrade to more of an 'expressway' as you come into the city. This is because when these highways were built these cities were, in some cases, over a thousand years old already... they were already fully developed. There was simply no room to place a highway... no way to bulldoze existing buildings to create highways due to historical preservation rules. What's interesting is if you look at newer more modern cities in Germany they will have highways passing through their city cores just like many places in the US... yet they are still considered some of the most bike friendly places on the planet. Similarly there are many places in the central parts of the cities that are quite crime ridden, and suffered from complete abandonment until forced price ceilings were put in place on many rental properties. In many cities such as in Paris there are districts where the properties are worth an astronomical amount, but due to complex social laws owners are only allowed to charge up to a maximum allowable limit. In other places such as parts of The Netherlands or England or Italy homes in certain parts of downtown have been part of the family's ownership for hundreds of years. Entire generations grow up and die together in the homes and pass the home down to the next. In some of these cities there's no such thing as a young family member leaving the ancestral home and starting out on their own. Many will even marry and live on a different floor of the same house as the parents and other elders, unless they are willing to move out into the country or smaller new up and coming cities. For some, the thought of moving to a place like the US where you can own your own home, start your own business and have a lot of family independence is a really big draw. The US was really built from that mindset... most of its history has been about moving as far west away from other people and civilization in general as is possible. It's also a misconception that Europeans don't use a lot of fossil fuels. Many of the homes in these grand old cities we are talking about are still powered by a semi-annual arrival of an oil or coal truck that dumps the fuel into the basement level. This is similar to parts of the Northeastern US, which still relies on similar technology. So while these places may not rely on as much gasoline, they still rely on a lot of oil from a per person standpoint. Also, the gas price gap between the US and Europe has really closed these last few years, partly due to dollar fluctuations but also due to some other factors. In Europe I understand that gas prices range anywhere from US$3.50 to $6.50 right now. Netherlands is the highest at $6.50... if you look into why, they are taxed a whopping about US$4 per gallon, plus a 20% VAT on the entire purchase which includes the other tax! Due to supply and demand the price is higher in Europe, but it isn't as high as you are thinking... a lot of that is artificial. I guess my point is that a lot of what goes on in Europe is because it is Europe... extreme planning and control of everything, very high tax rates, and forced socialized rental prices. I do not like that at all. But I think if you tried to pull off some sort of grand central city in America without some or all of those rigid controls it wouldn't work. So again really all I'm saying is... it's complicated. It's more than just one or two things that makes a city grow in a certain way.

[Rover]

Questor, I agree. We hear a lot of simplistic ideology that is naively applied to try to answer complex questions. As they say, text without context is just pretext. One of the reasons I appreciate Spartan, though I don't always agree with him, is that he has taken the opportunity to not only learn the academic, but is trying to give context by traveling worldwide and studying what actually happens. We all need to be better historians and less egocentric if we really want to analyze how and why things happen. You cannot always take two trends, put them together, and then assume cause and effect. That is really immature and superficial analysis.

[Just the facts]

No one is saying to get rid of rural interstates so I don't even know why you brought that up. The interstate system didn't come to the US unitl the early 1950's so any city founded before then was already 'settled'. When I-40 and I-44 were built through OKC they tore down lots of buildings. I remember when the first part of what would become Lake Hefner Parkway was put in bewtween I-44 and NW63rd. They tore down hundreds and hundreds of homes. It used to just be a city street. I am also a little confused by Rover's 'simplistic' concept. Simplistic is saying add more lanes and the problem will be solved.

You are also way off on your European gas prices. The average last week in Germany was $US7.61 per gallon. I paid $3.24 today here in Jax.

Now you do bring up some very good points about home ownership transcending mutiple generations. You won't find that anywhere in the US. I read yesterday that 80% of everything ever built in America has been built in the last 50 years. It was under the context that because of automobile based development we have to building a new country every 40 years. We can't keep doing that.

Finally, after tons of new piplines - many homes in the NE have converted to natural gas.

[ljbab728]

I remember when the first part of what would become Lake Hefner Parkway was put in bewtween I-44 and NW63rd. They tore down hundreds and hundreds of homes. It used to just be a city street.

Kerry, I also remember that area very well before Lake Hefner Parkway was constructed. That was where Grand Boulevard was. Certainly some homes were torn down but mainly between I44 and 50th. Not hundreds and hundreds though. That is only about a 1 1/2 mile stretch and there were few homes north of 50th. I also remember when I44 was constructed on the south side. My aunt and uncle lived on Grand Boulevard just north of 29th Street. They had to tear out maybe one row of houses on each side of the freeway when it was built there.

[rcjunkie]

Kerry, I also remember that area very well before Lake Hefner Parkway was constructed. That was where Grand Boulevard was. Certainly some homes were torn down but mainly between I44 and 50th. Not hundreds and hundreds though. That is only about a 1 1/2 mile stretch and there were few homes north of 50th. I also remember when I44 was constructed on the south side. My aunt and uncle lived on Grand Boulevard just north of 29th Street. They had to tear out maybe one row of houses on each side of the freeway when it was built there.

Actually very few if any, were torn down, most were sold and moved to another location.

[Rover]

Most of Hef pkwy was a winding, narrow two lane road that was dangerous. Few houses were removed. In fact, I can't remember any by the lakefront or north.

[rcjunkie]

Most of Hef pkwy was a winding, narrow two lane road that was dangerous. Few houses were removed. In fact, I can't remember any by the lakefront or north.

Most, if not all that were moved were S. of 63rd.

[Spartan]

Followed by more OKCTALK trolls that hate/despise everything OKC does.

Well it's not like you've ever tried refuting negative remarks with evidence to the contrary. The only way to not be negative on C2S right now is to completely put it out of mind.

[rcjunkie]

Well it's not like you've ever tried refuting negative remarks with evidence to the contrary. The only way to not be negative on C2S right now is to completely put it out of mind.

More evidence.

[coov23]

Did not intend for this to turn into a heated discussion. Lol. Proceed.

[Just the facts]

Did not intend for this to turn into a heated discussion. Lol. Proceed.

That's what happens when something new or different is suggested. Some people want to try something different and some people don't. Friction ensues. Personally for me, my comments in this thread have run its course.

[Reno and Walker]

..

[Reno and Walker]

Let me outline the process of how this development will go:

1) Investors buy up all of the available buildings and land, if they haven't already.
2) Investors board up all existing buildings and tear down a few in the process.
3) Investors start paving open areas for "cash only" parking lots.
4) Investors put for sale signs on boarded buildings at ridiculously high prices.
5) City steps in to build a canal extension, sports stadium, streetcar route, and all new landscaping throughout the area.
6) City negotiates deal for a mega-type-store, giving away millions of tax payers dollars as an incentive.
7) Investors laugh all the way to the bank, as they build strip mall shopping and more cash-cow-parking lots.

There are more steps in the process but I think you get the idea. haha.

j/k

Hey, thats my equation to success don't tell everyone.. shhhh