Bricktown Strategic Plan

[Questor]

I dont know anything about World Market, but what about Whole Foods? It seems to be the perfect example of a "single store in an isolated location that appeals to one demographic" (at least based on the cars in the parking lot). Not that I have anything against the cluster approach either. Get the right store in there and they will come. How many of the folks that frequent Whole Foods walk across the street over to Classen Curve?

You know me personally I never walk to Classen Curve from Whole Foods because I feel like trying to cross Grand or Classen on foot is taking your life into your own hands. But it is an interesting point that you bring up, people who shop at WF tends to do things like enjoy walking. The location of our current and only WF store is a bit isolating, but I could definitely see that store being the type of place that would generate foot traffic in a more urban setting.

Whole Foods now understands that yes it can be successful in Oklahoma. So build some large retail center in Bricktown or downtown that has them as the center anchor, with lots and lots and lots of little shops all around it. Don't design it as a straight line or V-shaped suburban strip mall... make it sort of U-shaped like a "town center" or some uniquely interesting configuration with lots of walking space and a public fountain or art in the center that encourages walking through, around, and across, with parking far away on an outer area that doesn't cross paths with the pedestrians. I would really love to see something like that here.

[Questor]

Also I am sure someone is now going to say oh well yes this is the easy part, it is getting the anchor tenant to locate in OKC that is the hard part... well I don't doubt that, but I also think that if you sign a big enough check anyone will locate here. Concerned business xyz won't make a profit? Well pass a penny tax and pour the whole thing into the new retail site and guarantee the tenants an incentive plus sustained revenue until they become profitable on their own. You basically eliminate the majority of the risk by doing that. So don't say it isn't possible, anything is possible if we really want something bad enough and are willing to pay for it.

I understand the sentiment of wanting a new convention center and the political necessity of creating senior aquatic centers around town, but I would honestly much rather see us dump $100 million+ into creating walkable commerce areas and attracting the kinds of businesses that everyone I know wants here that won't seem to come here than seeing any of that other stuff built. But that's just me.

[Questor]

If they did this, I wonder if they could use the sonic restaurant building (not the HQ building) and the small parking lot behind it. (new construction for that whole area). Not sure it that is enough space though. Would that be a good location?

That's an interesting thought. That's a great location, and the little parking lot has never made much sense to me because it can serve so few. Yeah that might be a good location. It could probably get a bump by being so close to (or in) Lower Bricktown too.

[Just the facts]

...make it sort of U-shaped like a "town center" or some uniquely interesting configuration with lots of walking space and a public fountain or art in the center that encourages walking through, around, and across, with parking far away on an outer area that doesn't cross paths with the pedestrians. I would really love to see something like that here.

I was just at The Jacksonville Landing which is designed exactly like that. Its history has been riddled with store closures, poor attendance, and a dead-like atmosphere. I came to the conclusion Saturday that it was designed backwards. Instead of the shops opening to the inner courtyard or accessible only by an internal hallway, the shops should have all opened to the outside facing the steet. On the day we were there the place was actually pretty busy but you couldn't tell from the sidewalk because everyone was hidden behind or inside the building. The back of the stores actually face the street.

[Questor]

I was just at The Jacksonville Landing which is designed exactly like that. Its history has been riddled with store closures, poor attendance, and a dead-like atmosphere. I came to the conclusion Saturday that it was designed backwards. Instead of the shops opening to the inner courtyard or accessible only by an internal hallway, the shops should have all opened to the outside facing the steet. On the day we were there the place was actually pretty busy but you couldn't tell from the sidewalk because everyone was hidden behind or inside the building. The back of the stores actully face the street.

That is a good point. Actually even the Classen Curve suffers a bit from the way in which it tends to obscure itself from the outside area. I guess I am a bit leery of street-facing frontage because here in OKC if something like that went up for bid that means every local yokal with strip mall experience would be trying to get a piece of it and if they did would ultimately design something more for drive up parking than for pedestrians. I am not sure how we would reconcile that... giving something enough visibility that passers-through would want to stop and check it out, but also something that is very easily walkable.

[Larry OKC]

^^^
That is the way Classen Curve is built

ON EDIT: Questor posted right before me, my ^^^ was to JTF...LOL

[Urbanized]

...if you're in Bricktown for dinner or to go to a bar, stores are unlikely to be open.

I have 7200 sq ft of retail in Bricktown (the largest locally-owned retail floorplate in downtown, if I'm not mistaken). The stores are both open 7 days a week, 12 months a year. Like most retailers, during January and February we have limited winter hours (12-6 or 12-7), but currently we are already operating on our regular schedule (10 AM to 9 PM), and do so for 10 months of the year.

The smaller of the two, Oklahoma's Red Dirt Emporium, is open until 10 PM on Fridays and Saturdays, and will be open until 10 PM 7 days a week come summer. The only reason the marketplace doesn't stay open until 10 is that it is directly below Rok - which starts at 9 PM on weekends - making it unbearably loud in the store.

We often do much of our daily business between 8 PM and 9 PM, when people are finishing dinner and strolling Bricktown.

I know Bricktown Candy Company and Guestroom have similar hours. The Painted Door Gallery is open 6 days I believe, and also extends hours in the summer months. Put a Cork in It winery is open 6 days and extends hours during the busy months. Not sure yet what House of Bedlam's hours will be, but suspect they will be aggressive. Also not sure of Coco Flow. Bass Pro of course also has long hours, though it is obviously a different animal altogether.

I'm pretty sure the shops in Bricktown as a group stay open more hours than retailers anywhere else in downtown. Most stores elsewhere in downtown are closed at 5 or 6 PM and often not open at all on weekends.

I guess if you're wanting Bricktown stores to be open for people stumbling out of clubs at the end of the night, we've failed. Otherwise your statement is not accurate, and inadvertantly discourages readers from even bothering to TRY to find open retail in Bricktown.

[betts]

I'm glad your stores are open that late. I did not know that. But I don't consider any of them destination retail that will bring people in specifically to shop in Bricktown. And really, I was talking about new, as opposed to existing retail, as I thought that was the point of this thread. I would like to see Bricktown as a destination for shoppers, personally. And i think it would be great if people who come downtown to have dinner can also shop - that's icing on the cake. Most of the single store retail I'm familiar with close at 5, or certainly 9 at the latest, so if survival is dependent on casual shoppers who pass by on their way to dinner, that's a problem. And something like that was a problem for Envy, Firefly and Lit, all of which should have been successful in the right location. I would have liked to see them adjacent, as that would have created more of an impetus to travel there to shop. I drive up to Nichols Hills Plaza to shop, and frequently stop in a store I might not have visited had it been in an isolated location. I have to make an extra effort to go there, but it's worth it, for all the unique retail that is in close proximity.

[mcca7596]

With the new transit hub, I hope this happens now more than ever. Sorry, that is a little more "dreamy" than the current strategy discussion.

That's what's planned to happen with the hub though, so it's totally realistic within the next 5-10 years.

[Rover]

With the limited retail options in Oklahoma creating 'destination retail' is the easy part. Half the city went ape **** over Whole Foods and the other half went ape **** over an outlet mall. A World Market opening would get two days of front page coverage and they have stores in Wichita, Amarillo, and Lubbock. You have to admit, the bar is set pretty low.

Yes Whole Foods has done well...it is smack dab in their demographics in Nichols Hills. You can put a destination store like Bass Pro which will attract a wide demographic, but high end retailers won't sniff Bricktown for some time. Bricktown is not a retail destination area and there isn't enough adjacent population yet to attract and make successful very much retail. Retailers have to make money and the $'s just aren't there....YET. Someday, maybe. Local owners with cute businesses that can survive on low volume and will be extremely frugal will have a chance.

[Just the facts]

I don't know Rover, here in Jax we put a shopping center in the middle of a field with no adjacent housing and it is now the #3 shopping center in the US and draws people from over 200 miles away. The closest housing is all apartments. They picked the location because it was at the intersection of two freeways - which is a bit odd since it was marketed and named "Town Center" and touts its pedestrian feel, but has parking for 5,000 cars.

[Rover]

I don't know Rover, here in Jax we put a shopping center in the middle of a field with no adjacent housing and it is now the #3 shopping center in the US and draws people from over 200 miles away. The closest housing is all apartments. They picked the location because it was at the intersection of two freeways - which is a bit odd since it was marketed and named "Town Center" and touts its pedestrian feel, but has parking for 5,000 cars.

But you want no highways or roads to service downtown and want to discourage cars, right?

Seriously, they had traffic count or reason to suspect a huge traffic count there. And what was the constructions costs? I don't think any major developer is going to come into OKC and put up a major mall in the middle of the city. I didn't think that's what you want anyway. I don't know of downtown malls that have or are doing very well. Mostly the downtown shopping fits the demographics of the locals.

[Skyline]

With the possibility of 4 new Bricktown hotels all in the near future, the Bricktown strategic plan seems to be working.

[Urbanized]

Sid, you hit on what I have said for a long time. The canal is a place you go TO. To have the type of success we all want to see, it needs to become a place people go THROUGH. Locals (rightly) see it as an unnecessary side trip to a visit to Bricktown. If it instead became a shortcut and was used as a nice way to get from point to point -- a super-sidewalk if you will -- it would fundamentally change the viability of canal-front property.

[Rover]

One of the challenges of businesses on the canal is that they are only serving people who are coming specifically to see them or are strolling along. I have walked along other canals or river walks when it acted simply as a pedestrian walkway. Because you have to walk off of Sheridan or Reno to get to California, it makes it a little more challenging to tap into the walking traffic of Bricktown. Have always wanted to see a pedestrian tunnel under the tracks and west from Bricktown to EKG and into the CBD. Make that route more prominent for people walking east out of downtown.

With the new transit hub, I hope this happens now more than ever. Sorry, that is a little more "dreamy" than the current strategy discussion.

You are exactly right. The canal is like a private sidewalk now and has no high count business that opens onto it. For instance, it seemed like the riverwalk in San Antonio got a lot more foot traffic when the Hyatt opened up on the river and had a main opening to it.

[Urbanized]

...I don't consider any of them destination retail that will bring people in specifically to shop in Bricktown...

That's never something we have really positioned them to be. Most shopping in Bricktown is currently impulse/opportunity based, and will be for the foreseeable future. As I have said in another post, it will be strong uphill sledding before a national "destination" retailer appears here. I hope I'm wrong, but the demographic numbers and the way nationals choose sites would indicate we are years if not a decade + from seeing this.

...if survival is dependent on casual shoppers who pass by on their way to dinner, that's a problem.

You're right; it is a problem, and one that won't be changing until lots more high earners live downtown. It's the cold hard truth. Therefore, in the meantime the best bet for a retailer to survive is to acknowledge, study and cater to this impulse market. Hopefully the retailer does so in a way that also interests and engages locals, and hopefully some of them WILL treat the retailer as a destination. We have seen an encouraging trend in this regard, with steady upticks every year in holiday shopping, for example.

..and something like that was a problem for Envy, Firefly and Lit, all of which should have been successful in the right location...

I think Envy's demise had more to do with a divorce and the opportunity to put Pinkitzel in the same space, but the other two locations failed (in my opinion) because they didn't listen to the market. They were mall stores plopped in Bricktown, and frankly I don't see that working here anytime soon if ever. The thing that will make retail work in Bricktown is offering something YOU CAN'T FIND at the mall, and offering products that will resonate with the many hundreds of thousands of people already walking around down here on an annual basis. If you ignore them and try to create some brand new market out of thin air, you've already got one foot in the grave.

I would have liked to see them adjacent, as that would have created more of an impetus to travel there to shop. I drive up to Nichols Hills Plaza to shop, and frequently stop in a store I might not have visited had it been in an isolated location. I have to make an extra effort to go there, but it's worth it, for all the unique retail that is in close proximity.

It's obviously not Nichols Hills Plaza, but the Bricktown Marketplace was designed specifically with this idea in mind; 50+ "micro" stores - each merchandised by a different merchant - in one location, with diversity of product and hopefully something for everyone. It's nowhere close to the ultimate goal for Bricktown, but we hope it is a step in the right direction.

[betts]

I don't think we need a national retailer to make Bricktown more of a shopping destination. And I agree that the Bricktown Marketplace is a microcosm of exactly what is needed. I'm going to go shopping there next week to try to find something unique to put in gift bags for out of town visitors to my daughter's wedding. But I can't shop for shoes, a dress or a wedding gift. For all of those items, I prefer local merchants like we have along Western, in Classen Curve and the NH Plaza. And, with the right renovation, promotion and perhaps help from the city, we could recreate shopping like we find along Western in Bricktown. We're going to have some great downtown demographics soon. A store like Lit could thrive, as long as the owner sought out brands you can't find at the mall. A store like Bebe's might be too upscale, but something like the French Cowgirl could thrive adjacent to a store like that. A shoes store like the one on Campus Corner (forgot its name) or the Shoe Gypsy would work as well. People wouldn't drive to Bricktown to shop at one of those, but they would for all 3, especially if they could pick up lunch as well.

If I had enough money, I'd renovate Main Street and seek out tenants because I believe we're very close to there.

[Spartan]

Downtown retail is a very complex equation. I would be very wary of anyone who says, "It's simple, all we have to do is focus on _____!"

However, the bottom line is we need to create retail destination somehow. You can create destination in a number of ways, with an anchor, with a high-profile retailer, etc. I think that at some point the city and a cadre of developers are going to have to sit down and offer incentives to different retailers (hopefully locally-owned retailers that are established, ie., Full Circle), and it MUST be done in a very coordinated, concerted manner.

If one developer offers discounted rent on NW 10th and another makes a competing deal in Bricktown, then you create zero destination, haven't identified the best retail slate, and all that you HAVE done is driven down your potential leasing market for retail in the future by throwing money in a haphazard way at retailers that one person liked, but clearly aren't the best strategy for downtown retail as a whole.

So that's the dilemma. Something bold has to be done, but a lot of planning has to go into whatever is done, and everyone has to be on the same page.

I think Betts also has a great point. Past attempts at downtown retail (and in the past we did have a decent concentration in Bricktown at times) may have been hindered by the relative new-ness of downtown at that time. Now downtown is more established, and most important of all, has great demographics. Each year, thousands of people move into downtown living units, so each year undoubtedly makes a huge difference in attracting the right mixed-use mix.

[Rover]

With retail it IS very simple...feet on the street with money in their pockets. Cheap rent pales in comparison to their large costs of inventory and inventory has to turn many times. When btown can prove real traffic made up of shoppers, retail will follow. Until then, small shops with limited merchandise will be possible, but it will be a slow progression. The more high end apartments and condos, the better to drive it.

[Urbanized]

...Now downtown is more established, and most important of all, has great demographics...

Unfortunately right now that is far from true. The zip codes a site selector would use (locals go with their gut/heart, regionals and national chains with cold hard data) are far, far from good. In fact, the appropriate term would be bad. That said, they are improving every day. Hopefully there will be good advancements in the retail sector in the next decade as downtown fills with residents. But it probably won't happen this year, or next year, or the year after. And it's nobody's "fault" that it hasn't happened to date. It's a process, and for downtown it's likely to be a long one.

Until then, the proven "real traffic made up of shoppers" that Rover refers to is limited to visitors (high numbers in season) and locals who are visiting downtown/Bricktown for events, dinner, etc. These are opportunistic shoppers who are buying more on impulse than anything else. It's still a significant opportunity for some retailers, and improving sales tax numbers will help in the recruitment of more mainstream retailers.

[Skyline]

As a side note... This morning I noticed new signage for the Bricktown parking lots along Main Street. It looks really good, a retro type design with good lighting placement.

[Rover]

Unfortunately right now that is far from true. The zip codes a site selector would use (locals go with their gut/heart, regionals and national chains with cold hard data) are far, far from good. In fact, the appropriate term would be bad. That said, they are improving every day. Hopefully there will be good advancements in the retail sector in the next decade as downtown fills with residents. But it probably won't happen this year, or next year, or the year after. And it's nobody's "fault" that it hasn't happened to date. It's a process, and for downtown it's likely to be a long one.

Until then, the proven "real traffic made up of shoppers" that Rover refers to is limited to visitors (high numbers in season) and locals who are visiting downtown/Bricktown for events, dinner, etc. These are opportunistic shoppers who are buying more on impulse than anything else. It's still a significant opportunity for some retailers, and improving sales tax numbers will help in the recruitment of more mainstream retailers.

Yes, and unfortunately, people on their way to a Thunder, Baron's, or concert event aren't going to shop first and carry merchandise with them to the game/concert, and the shops are closed at 10:30 when they leave. I doubt families going to dinner are going to go shopping much either (Mom doesn't like to shop with 3 kids and Dad in tow). So, right now, serious shoppers are in short supply. When locals (immediate area) aren't even populous enough to support a CVS, it is doubtful they will support much of a retail operation. So, small local boutiques, specialty book stores, kitschy souvenir and novelty stores, etc. is what will be more realistic for the time being.

[Spartan]

Unfortunately right now that is far from true. The zip codes a site selector would use (locals go with their gut/heart, regionals and national chains with cold hard data) are far, far from good. In fact, the appropriate term would be bad. That said, they are improving every day. Hopefully there will be good advancements in the retail sector in the next decade as downtown fills with residents. But it probably won't happen this year, or next year, or the year after. And it's nobody's "fault" that it hasn't happened to date. It's a process, and for downtown it's likely to be a long one.

Until then, the proven "real traffic made up of shoppers" that Rover refers to is limited to visitors (high numbers in season) and locals who are visiting downtown/Bricktown for events, dinner, etc. These are opportunistic shoppers who are buying more on impulse than anything else. It's still a significant opportunity for some retailers, and improving sales tax numbers will help in the recruitment of more mainstream retailers.

I'm not sure they'll be BAD per se. Hundreds of new folks moving into LEVEL, hundreds of people moving into the Edge, hundreds of new folks will be moving into Bradshaw's new apartment project, as well as Gary Clark's East Bricktown project. Then consider the number of smaller-scale projects that don't take up entire blocks, probably at least a dozen housing developments there right now. That does translate into some decent demographics IMO, especially when you question just how many people should be living in a ZIP code. We don't really have uber-high population ZIP codes in OKC because of how sprawled our city is, maybe along the NW Expressway? Still, I wouldn't be surprised if Norman or Stillwater have the highest population density ZIP codes in the state, and look at how that's translated into elite retail for them...

So I just don't think that a huge number in a single ZIP code is the recipe. The presentations I've seen to retailers and developers usually use a 3-mile radius, then a 5-mile radius, and then go as far out as the developer is wanting to make a point.

As for tourist business, because that's basically what it is, I'm going to go ahead and say you undoubtedly know more than any of us about that base. That said, I just don't believe it's as significant as you say it is, but I could be wrong. I have seen you say a few times that it's a lot more people than we'd think, so I'll take your word for it there. I am sure though that no matter how big it is, it's nowhere near big enough to grow the kind of downtown retail that I think we all want to see take root.

[Spartan]

Yes, and unfortunately, people on their way to a Thunder, Baron's, or concert event aren't going to shop first and carry merchandise with them to the game/concert, and the shops are closed at 10:30 when they leave. I doubt families going to dinner are going to go shopping much either (Mom doesn't like to shop with 3 kids and Dad in tow). So, right now, serious shoppers are in short supply. When locals (immediate area) aren't even populous enough to support a CVS, it is doubtful they will support much of a retail operation. So, small local boutiques, specialty book stores, kitschy souvenir and novelty stores, etc. is what will be more realistic for the time being.

Now hold on. I wouldn't use CVS' absence as a dig, or anything definitive, for that matter. I doubt CVS has even been asked in a few years, or given a proposal. And if they have and said no, that's their loss. The point being though, I'm pretty sure that downtown could at least support a CVS, the prolonged absence of which is now becoming puzzling.

[soonerliberal]

Now hold on. I wouldn't use CVS' absence as a dig, or anything definitive, for that matter. I doubt CVS has even been asked in a few years, or given a proposal. And if they have and said no, that's their loss. The point being though, I'm pretty sure that downtown could at least support a CVS, the prolonged absence of which is now becoming puzzling.

CVS' absence is actually very perplexing considering their new approach to how their stores are setup and their product inventory. Their urban stores have added significantly to their food section, taking away from a lot of the miscellaneous things that are often seen in a CVS. It seems like there should be one in one of the up and coming districts of OKC.