Bricktown Strategic Plan

[J. Pitman]

Jonathan, there's nothing stopping me from putting it into my report. If you guys want to visit w/ me about this, or email me your thoughts, we'll get it out there!

What's your time frame? I'm sure we'd like to participate.

I'll just PM you.

[Just the facts]

Just curious Steve, as the downtown business writer do you work out of the suburban Oklahoman building or do you have a small office downtown?

[betts]

Read the Bricktown Report

Summary Recommendations for Bricktown by NEWSOK

The Bricktown Strategic Plan lists several actions that can be taken by property owners and merchants, including:

Create a pedestrian pathway from Deep Deuce to Bricktown through the Main Street surface parking lots.

Reconnect Oklahoma Avenue from NE 2 in Deep Deuce to Main Street.

Add sidewalks and lighting along Russell M. Perry Avenue between Deep Deuce and Bricktown.

When the strategic plan mentions reconnecting Oklahoma Avenue, are they talking about doing so for pedestrians or cars? As I was walking my dog today, I was thinking about what we want for Deep Deuce. We have three through streets into Bricktown: Broadway, Walnut and Russell M. Perry. Why would we want a fourth? If we're trying to make the area more pedestrian friendly, why would we make it more automobile friendly? Why would we spend the money to create a big bridge over the railroad when there's one at Walnut? Oklahoma is a quiet street, which makes it great for walkers. It's now got dedicated bike lanes as well. Do we really want people using it as a shortcut to Bricktown, when there is already plenty of access? So, I'm hoping I'm misreading this.

[Just the facts]

The more through streets the less congestion it makes on exsiting streets. I could understand your pedistrian concerns if the were making Oklahoma Ave a new collector or arterial road, but it won't be. It will be two lanes with on-street parking and a 25mph speed limit. I also don't think you are going to see a bridge at Oklahoma Ave. Pretty sure it will be an at-grade crossing (if a train track is put back in at all).

[betts]

There's no significant congestion on existing streets. Even after a Thunder basketball game, or at rush hour, traffic flows very smoothly. Again, haven't we been discussing the fact that we need to get away from catering to automobiles? Why should we be concerned with future congestion when we hope to make the automobile less necessary downtown? Also, I believe the Union Pacific is about to take possession of the line, and it lies immediately adjacent to a six to eight foot hill and any street would bisect the small parking lot at the west end of the Aloft hotel and the property to the west. That would create a rather unattractive canyon with potential drainage issues and remove a very nice pocket park enjoyed by residents. I see no need to make Oklahoma a through street, when we have 3 through streets in a five block area.

[Doug Loudenback]

Thanks for posting Doug. An interesting meeting with more to come.

You're very welcome.

[Just the facts]

There's no significant congestion on existing streets. Even after a Thunder basketball game, or at rush hour, traffic flows very smoothly. Again, haven't we been discussing the fact that we need to get away from catering to automobiles? Why should we be concerned with future congestion when we hope to make the automobile less necessary downtown? Also, I believe the Union Pacific is about to take possession of the line, and it lies immediately adjacent to a six to eight foot hill and any street would bisect the small parking lot at the west end of the Aloft hotel and the property to the west. That would create a rather unattractive canyon with potential drainage issues and remove a very nice pocket park enjoyed by residents. I see no need to make Oklahoma a through street, when we have 3 through streets in a five block area.

Making thru streets isn't catering to automobiles and the lack of congestion is because of the existing thru streets. The reason for multiple thru streets is to prevent traffic from building up on a single street which creates a barrier to pedestrians and bicyclist. While traffic might not be an issue right now, a new hotel and two major apartment complexes will be coming on-line soon, with even more coming behind that. If traffic on Walnut gets to heavy it will effectivly cut-off east Deep Duece from West Deep Deuce. Walnut is already four lanes, it doesn't need to be a congested four lanes.

As for the park, there are plenty of places for that.

[betts]

We're going to have to agree to disagree. As a resident of Deep Deuce, I'm strongly against this. Walnut has a light that is triggered by the pedestrian, so traffic on Walnut is not an issue for pedestrians. If Walnut is adequate on nights when there are Thunder games, I don't anticipate worse congestion from a few hundred residents and visitors. And the alternate locations for the park are where?

[Rover]

OMG. There are new hotels being built in Btown and DD. Doesn't everyone know, hotels attract cars. We don't want cars downtown. Maybe we should ban hotels in btown and dd.

[wschnitt]

It would be excellent if Oklahoma hooked up.

[wschnitt]

We suggested that the city make parking free. That put downward pressure on the property owners that own surface lots, but refuse to develop their property. That downward pressure would force them to find other avenues of income besides parking. This would also lure real retail.

But, that didn't make it into the report.

Oh well.

Mr. Pitman,

I agree, however I think there would have to be a much greater amount of free parking than what is already there for there to be any real impact.

[Just the facts]

Mr. Pitman,

I agree, however I think there would have to be a much greater amount of free parking than what is already there for there to be any real impact.

As we know, for a lot of people perception is reality. If a small amount of free parking was in a highly visible location it would cause people to search out other free parking that might not be so visible.

[betts]

OMG. There are new hotels being built in Btown and DD. Doesn't everyone know, hotels attract cars. We don't want cars downtown. Maybe we should ban hotels in btown and dd.

Being ridiculous doesn't really make your point, you know. So, if you have a logical reason for your argument, that might be a better approach. My point was, we don't have congestion when we've got thousands of extra cars downtown on Thunder game nights. The hotel and LEVEL apartments will add a few hundred extra cars daily, which will not overwhelm the area if thousands don't. In addition, most of the people going to the hotels and LEVEL will not be driving to their apartment or hotel from Bricktown. If they're coming to the hotel from the airport, they're on I-40, which doesn't have a Bricktown exit. If they're driving to LEVEL, chances are they're coming from the Broadway extension or I-40, and the logical way to get to LEVEL or the Aloft from either is via Walnut. Regardless, how many people in cars are actually arriving at the hotel at any given point in time? One or two, right. How does that change the access requirements? Once you're at LEVEL or the Aloft, if you want to go into Bricktown, you're going to walk. There's no reason to drive a car, as you'll have to walk as far from your parking lot as it is into Bricktown from either. The railroad line is NOT going away, regardless of who owns it, as that's the adventure line route, or it belongs to the Union Pacific, depending on what happens.

As far as cars downtown, I believe I've said cars aren't going away. I do not think we should ban cars. But, I believe the people posting here actually believe in walkability. Why spend taxpayer money to create an unnecessary piece of road just so the 10 people a day who might want to drive straight down Oklahoma into Bricktown can do so when they could go one block either way to get to Broadway or Walnut, neither of which is significantly congested any time of the day or week?

I do think it would be nice to have a pedestrian walkway, or at least stairs down the cliff. But, I don't believe the Union Pacific is going to allow much more, short of a fancy bridge, over their rail line.

[wschnitt]

But where are those other free spots they would find? Downtown? Deep Duce?

[Just the facts]

But where are those other free spots they would find? Downtown? Deep Duce?

There are a ton of free parking spaces south of Reno. Bass Pro alone has like 500 free parking spaces. If existing City lots were converted to free there would be thousands of spaces.

[wschnitt]

Ok. I see. I like this plan.

[Just the facts]

Ok. I see. I like this plan.

Of course, this could only apply to Bricktown parking becasue OKC is selling off it's downtown garages to companies and they plan to build new garages, Typically those garages have been built using revenue bonds that were supposed to be paid back using revenue generated from the parking. If they make parking free all over downtown there won't be any revenue so where would the money come from? I am sure whatever City owner parking there is in Bricktown has already been paid for several times over. I don't really like the idea of the City driving parking lot owners out of business by under-cutting them but something has to be done or the place will die.

[BoulderSooner]

There's no significant congestion on existing streets. Even after a Thunder basketball game, or at rush hour, traffic flows very smoothly. Again, haven't we been discussing the fact that we need to get away from catering to automobiles? Why should we be concerned with future congestion when we hope to make the automobile less necessary downtown? Also, I believe the Union Pacific is about to take possession of the line, and it lies immediately adjacent to a six to eight foot hill and any street would bisect the small parking lot at the west end of the Aloft hotel and the property to the west. That would create a rather unattractive canyon with potential drainage issues and remove a very nice pocket park enjoyed by residents. I see no need to make Oklahoma a through street, when we have 3 through streets in a five block area.

i 100% agree with you that oklahoma should go be connected ... maybe paved steps and a path for pedestrians .. but that is all ..

[Just the facts]

If it was up to me Oklahoma would be made a thru street and Walnut would be reduced to two lanes and on-street parking added.

[betts]

Why? Walnut connects directly to the 6th St. exit off the Broadway Extension. It also connects directly to the 8th St. bridge across the Broadway extension that goes into the Research Park and over to the Health Sciences Center. Cutting it down to two lanes would increase congestion on the street there. Plus, it's already connected to Bricktown via a bridge for which people fought vigorously. Oklahoma is only a two lane street and it's going to stay two lane because of existing buildings. Oklahoma only connects to 10th St. and is illogical to use coming off the 6th St. exit. As I said, making it cross the tracks at grade would create a very awkward canyon with potential drainage issues. Thank goodness it's not up to you.

[shane453]

Thank goodness it's not up to you.

Someone had to say it

[Spartan]

We suggested that the city make parking free. That put downward pressure on the property owners that own surface lots, but refuse to develop their property. That downward pressure would force them to find other avenues of income besides parking. This would also lure real retail.

But, that didn't make it into the report.

Oh well.

Hey J. Pitman,

Have you seen the plan to re-do the parallel parking along North Broadway with new angled parking that will add about 500 new parking spots to A-Alley? How would you feel about redesigning all of the on-street parking, which could easily add hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of new spots while still being sensitive to the streetscapes... It seems like adding such a glut of free on-street parking spaces would really drive down the incentive to pave lots over. *ahem* particularly along Mickey Mantle where the on-street parking is mysteriously missing for a very long stretch, where the limos and taxis all line up during after hours.

I've always wondered if the relative disappearance of on-street parking was in some way, at any point in time, the city's part in helping out the Bricktown parking lot operators. Reno too needs to be redone, narrowed, and parking needs to be incorporated there especially. Changing it away from parallel parking to the angled parking would make an amazing difference too.

Simply put, Bricktown is not dense enough nor crowded enough, even on Friday nights, for the parking demands to be so far ahead of the street capacity that we're paving the entire district over for new parking. Especially considering that all the hotels have made parking arrangements one way or another.

[Spartan]

Why? Walnut connects directly to the 6th St. exit off the Broadway Extension. It also connects directly to the 8th St. bridge across the Broadway extension that goes into the Research Park and over to the Health Sciences Center. Cutting it down to two lanes would increase congestion on the street there. Plus, it's already connected to Bricktown via a bridge for which people fought vigorously. Oklahoma is only a two lane street and it's going to stay two lane because of existing buildings. Oklahoma only connects to 10th St. and is illogical to use coming off the 6th St. exit. As I said, making it cross the tracks at grade would create a very awkward canyon with potential drainage issues. Thank goodness it's not up to you.

Betts is right about Walnut. People don't realize it, but between 5 and 5:30, Walnut handles an immense amount of traffic. It is always very congested right at the onset of rush hour.

However I am with all the others echoing the concerns about Oklahoma. I don't think Oklahoma needs to become a major artery N/S, even though the new part they just finished adjacent to A-Alley (yet across the tracks) has enormous development potential IMO, I just think Walnut is already firmly established as a major road. Soon it will be a major urban road. Soon, I think we will regard Walnut's improvement as our REAL urban "boulevard" (or perhaps Sheridan or Broadway?) as Deep Deuce continues to densify and as the C2S boulevard proves it's a huge, expensive flop to bring in suburbanized elements.

The important thing about Oklahoma however is that connecting it into the Maywood Park developments not only improves circulation and access to a relatively quiet corner of Bricktown, but it also opens up excellent development opportunities. There is some room for significant development back there, which could front a new extended Oklahoma Avenue. While we need to be careful to keep that area compatible with future transit uses, the Skirvin-CC proposal did highlight the potential development opportunities that exist which could create linkages between Bricktown and Deep Deuce.

I understand that our resident DDers on this board such as betts have argued that there is already access because they can simply walk across the Rock Island ROW, however that is not a real linkage, and I do think those are two neighborhoods that combined really deserve dedicated, official, well-developed linkages. The Walnut bridge is excellent for auto traffic and pedestrians who want a truly breathtaking skyline view, yet it is kind of a long uninterrupted pathway which makes for an uninteresting walk aside from that breathtaking skyline view, and furthermore, you can only use it to get from Point A (Sheridan) to Point B (NE 2nd Street).

If you're trying to get to the Wedge on NE 1st, you back track and walk two extra blocks. If you're wanting to go into that quiet corner of Bricktown I mentioned earlier, somewhere along Main Street (that area has so much potential and always has), then again backtracking and walking an extra two blocks. Should the Merc/Meineke bldg ever get converted to apartments and its residents want some pizza at the Wedge? Well that's a lot of backtracking, for a total of walking an extra 4 blocks altogether in addition to the distance from your apartment to the pizzeria.

Furthermore, Walnut Street being the only legit linkage between the neighborhood IS contributing heavily to that stretch of Main Street being such a quiet little corner of Bricktown.

[betts]

There is a sneaky way to the Wedge, however. If you walk down Walnut towards the bridge you can walk behind the Deep Deuce apartments there, go down the hill and you're right there. It isn't handicapped friendly though.

[Rover]

Being ridiculous doesn't really make your point, you know. So, if you have a logical reason for your argument, that might be a better approach. My point was, we don't have congestion when we've got thousands of extra cars downtown on Thunder game nights. The hotel and LEVEL apartments will add a few hundred extra cars daily, which will not overwhelm the area if thousands don't. In addition, most of the people going to the hotels and LEVEL will not be driving to their apartment or hotel from Bricktown. If they're coming to the hotel from the airport, they're on I-40, which doesn't have a Bricktown exit. If they're driving to LEVEL, chances are they're coming from the Broadway extension or I-40, and the logical way to get to LEVEL or the Aloft from either is via Walnut. Regardless, how many people in cars are actually arriving at the hotel at any given point in time? One or two, right. How does that change the access requirements? Once you're at LEVEL or the Aloft, if you want to go into Bricktown, you're going to walk. There's no reason to drive a car, as you'll have to walk as far from your parking lot as it is into Bricktown from either. The railroad line is NOT going away, regardless of who owns it, as that's the adventure line route, or it belongs to the Union Pacific, depending on what happens.

As far as cars downtown, I believe I've said cars aren't going away. I do not think we should ban cars. But, I believe the people posting here actually believe in walkability. Why spend taxpayer money to create an unnecessary piece of road just so the 10 people a day who might want to drive straight down Oklahoma into Bricktown can do so when they could go one block either way to get to Broadway or Walnut, neither of which is significantly congested any time of the day or week?

I do think it would be nice to have a pedestrian walkway, or at least stairs down the cliff. But, I don't believe the Union Pacific is going to allow much more, short of a fancy bridge, over their rail line.

Sorry Betts...wasn't commenting on anything you said.

I do think however that a more coordinated and thought out plan is in order for btown. I think that future form will be better served by being proactive on deciding what kind of businesses are needed and wanted and then a coordinated recruiting effort made. Though my sarcasm was extremely tongue in cheek, the idea that there will be more and more hotels and more and more eating establishments and more bars and clubs means there will be much more auto traffic as well. Therefore traffic planning and parking will continue to take a high priority. I think that at some time btown has to decide to be almost exclusively an entertainment area or a business area serving a neighborhood. If it is just entertainment then traffic and parking will always be a problem. Keeping as many arteries open will be the priority. If it is there to serve as a neighborhood, then you are right in saying we have enough streets and access now.

I also think the merchants in btown could do more to provide trams to shuttle people around. I see this in other cities and it works well. They are not city owned but paid for by the local businesses who want people to walk around and not go get back in their cars. These trams replace multiple cars which would otherwise be on the streets.

Anyway, I think the master plan renewal is a good first step to get everyone moving in the same direction and hopefully coordinated with the city.