Bricktown Strategic Plan

[Rover]

WalMarts are banned in towns all over the country. South Central LA has banned all fast-food restaurants.

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?se...les&id=7831475

The only place I can find considering banning Wal Mart is California and mostly the supercenters, and it is mainly a tax situation, not real estate (has to do with non taxed grocery sales ) . Btw, the permit was just issued for the one in LA. I can find no evidence off them beings banned "all over the country".

And the area ban on fast foods was because the fast food business already made up 75% of the restaurant business...twice the national average. And, it would be doubtful it would hold up if it ever went to the supreme court. Cali is famous for overreaching.

[Questor]

Didn't Norman just tell Chuy's they couldn't build in UNP? Seems like it happens.

[Spartan]

Yeah, I'm not suggesting that we become like Edmond, which we all know uses a tight stranglehold on developers to ensure... that only low-quality developments are built there.

I didn't know Norman said no to Chuy's. Chuy's would have been the one good thing about UNP.

[Questor]

If I remember correctly they told them they weren't a good fit for UNP, which was where they originally scouted. I don't understand it either. So Chuy's is building on Ed Noble, right next door to Ted's. Norman seems to love placing competitors right next door to each other.

[rcjunkie]

If I remember correctly they told them they weren't a good fit for UNP, which was where they originally scouted. I don't understand it either. So Chuy's is building on Ed Noble, right next door to Ted's. Norman seems to love placing competitors right next door to each other.

They were denied based entirely on construction material and neither side would budge.

[stjohn]

You're confirming the point I have been making, which is not so much about Bricktown, but about downtown in general. CVS won't come to downtown due to sparse population (you heard it with your own ears), but Whole Foods or Urban Outfitters will? Sure, UO isn't afraid of urban areas, but in THOSE cities, there is dense and typically affluent population surrounding the site.

We have to crawl before we can walk. Build residential, build residential, build residential. Beyond that, entice other locals to set up shop, and then SUPPORT them. That is the path. Spending a bunch of time hoping for West Elm to be here tomorrow is wasted energy.

Ahem. Smart residential. The failed/underperforming high end residential housing developments in and around Bricktown/downtown are the reason the area hasn't grown quicker. How much income is "disposable income"? You don't need to be wealthy to have money to spend. Downtown is just now, almost 20 years after MAPS, starting to develop quality, reasonably priced housing for young people, who, yes, aren't rich, but have money to blow.

[betts]

I think you're going to find that the underperforming high end residential in and around Bricktown is going to start performing. The Hill and Maywood are starting to fill up, and there is an incredible amount of activity in terms of people looking. As this city becomes more downtown-centric, the concept of living downtown is not as alien to people who are looking for places to purchase. As the people who live in rentals downtown age, they'll be looking for places to purchase and won't find much. The entire problem with the higher end for sale housing was that a lot of people looking for housing in that price range who had lived in Oklahoma City their entire life or who had never lived in a very urban area did not understand the appeal. That is changing, and younger people who will rent downtown will not have that bias against urban dwelling as they age. The people who built the underperforming high end residential were ahead of their time, that's all. And, in 20 years, when all the for rent housing ages, people will be lamenting the fact that we were in such a hurry to populate Deep Deuce and Bricktown that we allowed development that doesn't age well to use prime land. Maybe that's a necessary evil, but I think there are going to be plenty of options for young people. It's time to stop acting as if high end downtown residential was a mistake. In the long run, we'll wish there were more high quality housing that ages well downtown.

[kevinpate]

They were denied based entirely on construction material and neither side would budge.

What Chuy's is building on the frontage rd isn't ugly, but I tend to agree it would look odd if bundled into the UNP area. Not a bad call overall. The food row along I-35 was already distinctive brand dressed so another one fits in better there and gets rid of the dead SF building. win-win as kate would say.

[Rover]

I think you're going to find that the underperforming high end residential in and around Bricktown is going to start performing. The Hill and Maywood are starting to fill up, and there is an incredible amount of activity in terms of people looking. As this city becomes more downtown-centric, the concept of living downtown is not as alien to people who are looking for places to purchase. As the people who live in rentals downtown age, they'll be looking for places to purchase and won't find much. The entire problem with the higher end for sale housing was that a lot of people looking for housing in that price range who had lived in Oklahoma City their entire life or who had never lived in a very urban area did not understand the appeal. That is changing, and younger people who will rent downtown will not have that bias against urban dwelling as they age. The people who built the underperforming high end residential were ahead of their time, that's all. And, in 20 years, when all the for rent housing ages, people will be lamenting the fact that we were in such a hurry to populate Deep Deuce and Bricktown that we allowed development that doesn't age well to use prime land. Maybe that's a necessary evil, but I think there are going to be plenty of options for young people. It's time to stop acting as if high end downtown residential was a mistake. In the long run, we'll wish there were more high quality housing that ages well downtown.

There was a great article at a new urbanism web site that pointed out that without decent amounts of development on the higher end, as urban living became more popular it tends to drive prices up for all properties and tends to force the lower economic groups out. The higher economic class merely bids up what is on the market because they have the money to do so.

[Spartan]

I think you're going to find that the underperforming high end residential in and around Bricktown is going to start performing. The Hill and Maywood are starting to fill up, and there is an incredible amount of activity in terms of people looking. As this city becomes more downtown-centric, the concept of living downtown is not as alien to people who are looking for places to purchase. As the people who live in rentals downtown age, they'll be looking for places to purchase and won't find much. The entire problem with the higher end for sale housing was that a lot of people looking for housing in that price range who had lived in Oklahoma City their entire life or who had never lived in a very urban area did not understand the appeal. That is changing, and younger people who will rent downtown will not have that bias against urban dwelling as they age. The people who built the underperforming high end residential were ahead of their time, that's all. And, in 20 years, when all the for rent housing ages, people will be lamenting the fact that we were in such a hurry to populate Deep Deuce and Bricktown that we allowed development that doesn't age well to use prime land. Maybe that's a necessary evil, but I think there are going to be plenty of options for young people. It's time to stop acting as if high end downtown residential was a mistake. In the long run, we'll wish there were more high quality housing that ages well downtown.

In my opinion the rentals being developed are higher-end, or at least upper-middle. $850/mo for 600 sf aint cheap, although I would also defend it as very reasonable to people who think that's a "rip-off." I think we've found a niche that is both successful and "just right" demographically, and I'd venture a guess that it is going to take more than 20 years for LEVEL to deteriorate. I think if the downtown occupancy rate remains above 95% once LEVEL, Gary Clark's East Bricktown project, Bradshaw's new project, and the Edge all go online, then we may see some apartment towers begin to go up.

I want to go back to something though, the topic of incentives. There is almost no way around this, and I'd like to start seeing incentives leveraged because I think it is time (due to all the rooftops AND hotels going up) to develop retail. I realize everyone says it's premature it won't develop the market isn't there yet for it, etc. I get that. That's why I said incentives. Cathy O'Connor needs to offer incentives strategically to UO and GAP as well as perhaps some locals and make it perfectly clear that these are the only incentives on the table for anywhere in the city. They need to be good incentives as well. Certainly nowhere near the $20 million+ allegedly needed for a Bloomingdale, but maybe a million or two. I think UO or GAP, ideally both as anchors around existing retail niches, would be a worthy investment of the city.

[Just the facts]

There was a great article at a new urbanism web site that pointed out that without decent amounts of development on the higher end, as urban living became more popular it tends to drive prices up for all properties and tends to force the lower economic groups out. The higher economic class merely bids up what is on the market because they have the money to do so.

That is why it is important to get in on the ground floor. If areas like Capitol Hill ever take off new urbanism style the people living/owning there now will be the first to reap the economic rewards. So far the areas in OKC that are seeing the most redevelopment haven't had ANYONE living there for generations. I would love to own a home within 3 blocks of the Plaza District because over the next few years their home values are going to skyrocket. In 10 years they could easily be worth 3X what they are current priced at, especially if gasoline prices keep going up (and it will). What the current owners do with that increase in value is up to them.

[Larry OKC]

Spartan: was thinking that was low but had to look it up. Basically double the incentive amount you mentioned...
http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/20...ing-to-happen/

Furthermore, very few department stores are being built today, and the incentive packages required to attract one to a downtown location start at $40 million or more.

More than double what it cost us for Bass Pro to put it into some perspective. (Not to detract from the rest of your post)

[Spartan]

Well, when you put it like that, it almost seems very worthwhile all of a sudden...

[wschnitt]

The building between Club Albi and AMCUCO has building permits in the windows. That corner is developing nicely. Are those buildings new?