Norman Transportation Plan "Moving Forward"

[Pioneer]

http://normantranscript.com/headline...portation-plan

The City of Norman is beginning a comprehensive "Moving Forward" transportation plan that I am building some interest in. It sounds like they may be getting serious about updating Norman in terms of roads and transportation.

I would like to hear some ideas that you all would like to see done here in Norman that could realistically be accomplished and have a major affect on improving our city.

I know it has been discussed before, but I would like to see some North-South 4 lane roads through town. Driving down Berry Rd and Flood, I really do not see any reason why one of those roads could not be 4-laned from Robinson to at least Main St. The nearest are Porter on the east and 24th on the west.

I was hoping to see hwy 37 in Newcastle cross the river connecting from the Newcastle 44 Hwy to NE 24th St in North Norman. At the time Indian Hills looked like the best option to do so. That would give Norman great access into and out of town and a great northside east/west route to get from one side of town to the other. Could that still be done given Andy's expansion and Hey Days?

Please discuss, add ideas, and tear down mine if need be. I just would like to see Norman work ahead of the curve instead of behind it. Let's plan for the future population before it's too late to make easy adjustments.

[ljbab728]

I know it has been discussed before, but I would like to see some North-South 4 lane roads through town. Driving down Berry Rd and Flood, I really do not see any reason why one of those roads could not be 4-laned from Robinson to at least Main St. The nearest are Porter on the east and 24th on the west.

I'm not necessarily against having other four lane North-South 4 lane roads in central Norman but I have to wonder if that if the most effective use of potential resources given that most of Norman's growth is in the East and West side instead of North or South of downtown Norman.

[venture]

I know it has been discussed before, but I would like to see some North-South 4 lane roads through town. Driving down Berry Rd and Flood, I really do not see any reason why one of those roads could not be 4-laned from Robinson to at least Main St. The nearest are Porter on the east and 24th on the west.

I'm with LJ on this. The city is growing and the assets needs to be used to accommodate this growth. The good news is that 24th SE/NE is going to be getting widened to 4 lanes between Lindsey and Robinson. It would be nice though that the major streets get center turning lanes at least.

I was hoping to see hwy 37 in Newcastle cross the river connecting from the Newcastle 44 Hwy to NE 24th St in North Norman. At the time Indian Hills looked like the best option to do so. That would give Norman great access into and out of town and a great northside east/west route to get from one side of town to the other. Could that still be done given Andy's expansion and Hey Days?

I think I've brought this up a few times about the desire to have Indian Hills run due west across the river and intersect at the I-44/Hwy 37 interchange. It would be great to have another link north to the western Metro and the airport.

[BoulderSooner]

the #1 thing norman should do is make lindsay 4 lane or 4 land plus turn lane from I35 to just passed berry ..

[lasomeday]

I think the plan needs to include a comprehensive bike path plan. The current bike routes are ridiculous!

[Pioneer]

Lindsay has always been a number 1 on my list. There is no reason why I should start sweating when someone tells me I have to drive down Lindsay to get to where I need to go. That road needs to be a priority that I don't think the city is ready to bite on. That's the other intention of this Thread, to bring up ideas that are managable before it's too late. Before Moore and Norman grow completely together (getting closer daily), I feel we need to redo and widen Indian Hills bridge, and expand (4 or 5-lane) Indian Hills all the way out to Newcastle to connect 44 and 35. The real estate hasn't developed too much to prevent this from happening yet, but we have to act fast, which is against city policy I'm afraid.

Adequate sidewalks need to be apart of every new road.

With the TIF Project on 24th, I believe more and more traffic will flow to 77/Flood which is a nice cut into north-central Norman. But it dies at Robinson. Flood would be perfect to be 4 laned to Main with an eventual hope to connect to Lindsay. (Berry would work as well, there is very little keeping Berry from connecting all the way to hwy 9 as a 4-lane). I understand about resources being needed for the exteriors of Norman, but I'm hoping we just build those right the first time (everythng 4-laned). As long as Downtown exists while continuing to grow and OU still has a campus here, the heart of Norman will always have high travel demands for our roads. We've neglected the central town routes for way too long. Let's play catch-up now.

[venture]

The biggest thing is going to be cost and land acquisition for widening of either Flood or Berry. You are looking at buying out quite a few homes or businesses in order to have room to widen. So while it may be something that is needed, the cost may not justify being able to do it. An easier option might be to construct a new 4-lane road just to the west of the railroad tracks. Looks like fewer homes to buy out and most of the land is occupied by either existing roads or parking lots. You can also easily tie it into the existing 4-lane Flood as well.

[shane453]

Travel is slow through Norman, and it might take a while at times to get from point a to b. Rush hour gets backed up, and it can take a long time to get out of town if it is a day before OU is letting out for a break. But why should we plan huge four-lane roads through the most charming and historic parts of town just so that traffic can move faster for 10 or 12 extra crowded hours of the week? Widening roads means getting rid of mature trees, increasing the speed of traffic, and making the route more uncomfortable for pedestrians and bikers.

Central Norman is one of the only places in the whole state of Oklahoma where it is occasionally inconvenient to drive a car. It is also one of the only places in the state where biking and walking are a very attractive and preferable alternative to driving. Kids actually walk to elementary school in central Norman! The pedestrian crossing distances are 20-30' instead of 60-80'. The presence of light traffic and narrow lanes force drivers to stay closer to (or under) the speed limit. Widening roads can actually increase traffic, if it eliminates the attractiveness of walking and biking.

[BG918]

Travel is slow through Norman, and it might take a while at times to get from point a to b. Rush hour gets backed up, and it can take a long time to get out of town if it is a day before OU is letting out for a break. But why should we plan huge four-lane roads through the most charming and historic parts of town just so that traffic can move faster for 10 or 12 extra crowded hours of the week? Widening roads means getting rid of mature trees, increasing the speed of traffic, and making the route more uncomfortable for pedestrians and bikers.

Central Norman is one of the only places in the whole state of Oklahoma where it is occasionally inconvenient to drive a car. It is also one of the only places in the state where biking and walking are a very attractive and preferable alternative to driving. Kids actually walk to elementary school in central Norman! The pedestrian crossing distances are 20-30' instead of 60-80'. The presence of light traffic and narrow lanes force drivers to stay closer to (or under) the speed limit. Widening roads can actually increase traffic, if it eliminates the attractiveness of walking and biking.

Agree. Minus widening Lindsey to 4 lanes with no turn lanes there are no roads in central Norman that should be widened unless it's to add bike lanes.

[ou48A]

I would like to see the following ….

4 lane Lindsey Street from campus west to I-35.

4 lane Flood from Boyd north.

4 Lane Jenkins from Lindsey south. Build an over pass over HY 9. The road would then become limited access and continue south and then turn west with a bridge over the River before connecting with I -35. This would give OU a southern entrance and relive some congestion on Lindsey

Bring HY 9 up to interstate standards. From HY-9 & I-35 build an extension on the north side of the river that would following the curve of the river onto the ten mile flats area to a point where it meets up with a 4 lane Western Street.

We do need a bridge over the river in Northwestern Norman

Any transportation plan should move ahead with the thought in mind that we will eventually have a commuter rail system. Leave space for 2 to 3 tracks.

Build a new street from Lindsey to the north that would following the railroad tracks and intersect with Flood north of Robinson Street. This could be turned into a north bound one way street after football games.

Many of the sidewalks in the older parts of Norman near campus are in a very sorry state or repair and are far too narrow for major events. +We need better lighting around campus.

[venture]

I think a lot of us have the same ideas.

4 lane Lindsey Street from campus west to I-35.

From Berry west is probably as much as we can get, which should be perfectly fine. Could probably get it to 5 lanes with a center turn lane.

4 lane Flood from Boyd north.

Probably not doable. Not without buying out homes or getting rid of the sidewalks. Could possibly go to 3 lanes - 2 with a center turn lane. Then maybe have some room for a bike lane/sidewalk combo. However south of Mcnamee is going to be tight for even that.

4 Lane Jenkins from Lindsey south. Build an over pass over HY 9. The road would then become limited access and continue south and then turn west with a bridge over the River before connecting with I -35. This would give OU a southern entrance and relive some congestion on Lindsey

Shouldn't be too hard to do this. Seems to be plenty of land or just parking lots in the way.

Bring HY 9 up to interstate standards. From HY-9 & I-35 build an extension on the north side of the river that would following the curve of the river onto the ten mile flats area to a point where it meets up with a 4 lane Western Street.

Taking Hwy 9 to a limited access highway or expressway setup is definitely something that should be done. It would help out a ton. Most intersections should have enough room to do compressed interchanges, however some areas are going to be tight. I could see the opportunity to take Hwy 9 all the way to 60th NW (Western), but not sure it would really prove much of a benefit.

We do need a bridge over the river in Northwestern Norman

Definitely agree. Indian Hills needs to be expanded to I-44/Hwy 37. Could almost work in your extended Hwy 9 up to Indian Hills and then swing it to the west to 37. Make the whole thing a 4-lane limited access highway. Now could it be done without having it be a toll road. The impact on the Norman Spur would probably be felt, but in all honesty...it wasn't really done in the best area - well if you are going north.

Any transportation plan should move ahead with the thought in mind that we will eventually have a commuter rail system. Leave space for 2 to 3 tracks.

The trick becomes what part of Norman should have the station for light rail, or multiple stations.

Build a new street from Lindsey to the north that would following the railroad tracks and intersect with Flood north of Robinson Street. This could be turned into a north bound one way street after football games.

I think like I mentioned earlier from Main Street to the North is the best option. Lindsey to Brooks has the Duck Pond park and a power substation. Those aren't going anywhere. You have all houses on the east side of the tracks. Brooks to Boyd houses all the way. Boyd to Duffy is a bit easier. You have Front Street that can update, but some houses will need to be moved. Duffy to the north would be alright. There is a lot of parking that would need to be removed. Also the Legacy Trail will need to be completely torn up and removed. So that might be a no go right away.

Many of the sidewalks in the older parts of Norman near campus are in a very sorry state or repair and are far too narrow for major events. +We need better lighting around campus.

Need better lighting everywhere. Population is going up and I'm noticing more crime in areas that were traditionally very safe neighborhoods.

All in all, the major areas for infrastructure upgrades will be on the outskirts of the city core to accommodate development. There are a few things for the city core that can be done, but it is almost part the point of being affordable.

[Just the facts]

I vote for no widening of any streets, returning Main Street to two-way traffic through downtown, putting in a streetcar from Norman Regional to the south end of the OU Campus, and starting interurban service to downtown OKC.

[ou48A]

[QUOTE=venture79;477387]The trick becomes what part of Norman should have the station for light rail, or multiple stations.



IMHO there should probably be 2 and perhaps 3 commuter rail station Norman stops.

The first would be located near Tecumseh. The second at OU and if neassary another located near HY 9.

I think it’s absolutely critical to locate the OU station several hundred feet closer to the campus than where the tracks are now. This could be done by either building a Y shape spur or curving the tracks to run just east of the Track complex and indoor practice facility.
The station should be located and elevated near the track complex where the parking lot is. This would better sever the daily needs of the campus but also better help with large events. 2 loading platforms would be most helpful for large events. If the LNC is ever replaced some have suggested that a new arena could be built just north of this area.

There would be a large increase of OU students using Amtrak if the Norman Amtrak station would be relocated to the OU station and built where I suggested.
A bus / trolley system could funnel people to these Norman stations

[ljbab728]

[QUOTE=ou48A;477511]

There would be a large increase of OU students using Amtrak if the Norman Amtrak station would be relocated to the OU station and built where I suggested.

That would have absolutely no effect on the number of students riding Amtrak. Besides the fact that the Amtrak station is within easy walking distance of the campus, Amtrak is something that few students would use frequently anyway unless the routes are improved. There could be an Amtrak station in the student union and it would get the same amount of ridership from students. When I was at OU in the 60's there were more options for rail destinations. I had fraternity brothers who would use it once or twice a year to go home to the upper midwest.

[ou48A]

[QUOTE=ljbab728;477656]

That would have absolutely no effect on the number of students riding Amtrak. Besides the fact that the Amtrak station is within easy walking distance of the campus, Amtrak is something that few students would use frequently anyway unless the routes are improved. There could be an Amtrak station in the student union and it would get the same amount of ridership from students. When I was at OU in the 60's there were more options for rail destinations. I had fraternity brothers who would use it once or twice a year to go home to the upper midwest.

I have some personal knowledge on this. I respectfully say that you are wrong on this issue.
As it is now very few students, particularly girls (personal safety issue) want to drag their luggage back to their dorm or to where they are living. For most, it’s over a mile walk though areas that are pretty dark at night on many bad sidewalks and sometimes in bad weather.

If we want a functioning train station that serves the needs of our modern day community and not the toy box dream we have now it is well beyond any reasonable question that a new station is needed on OU’s campus. The few students who use it now mostly depend on a friend to pick them up.

In recent years OU has seen far more students coming from the north Texas area than ever before. I have been told by a few students that they would use the train more if it wasn’t so inconvenient on the Norman end. I’m sure there wouldn’t be massive new numbers of students on the train but their ridership would increase some.

Besides….and perhaps most important is that I have been told by someone who is very much in the know with city of Norman & OU decision makers that commuter rail will not happen in Norman without a major OU station. So why not make it the stop for Amtrak in Norman? It could be served by local busses where as there is no justification to sever the current location at the time the north bound train arrives.

[ljbab728]

[QUOTE=ou48A;477662]

I have some personal knowledge on this. I respectfully say that you are wrong on this issue.
As it is now very few students, particularly girls (personal safety issue) want to drag their luggage back to their dorm or to where they are living. For most, it’s over a mile walk though areas that are pretty dark at night on many bad sidewalks and sometimes in bad weather.

If we want a functioning train station that serves the needs of our modern day community and not the toy box dream we have now it is well beyond any reasonable question that a new station is needed on OU’s campus. The few students who use it now mostly depend on a friend to pick them up.

In recent years OU has seen far more students coming from the north Texas area than ever before. I have been told by a few students that they would use the train more if it wasn’t so inconvenient on the Norman end. I’m sure there wouldn’t be massive new numbers of students on the train but their ridership would increase some.

Besides….and perhaps most important is that I have been told by someone who is very much in the know with city of Norman & OU decision makers that commuter rail will not happen in Norman without a major OU station. So why not make it the stop for Amtrak in Norman? It could be served by local busses where as there is no justification to sever the current location at the time the north bound train arrives.

I also have personal knowledge about this and I also respectfully say you are wrong. Moving the Amtrak station would not improve student ridership in the least. That small distance is not detering any student (girl or otherwise) from using Amtrak if they want to. Amtrak leaves Norman to Fort Worth at 8:49AM which isn't dark. The return train arrives at 8:53PM which is after dark part of the year but certainly not late. Do the students you talk to live with walking distance of the Amtrak station in Forth Worth? I doubt it. I know from past conversations you are in favor of a new rail complex in the Duck Pond area and I am adamantly opposed to disturbing that area with something like that. The Norman Amtrak station is in the perfect location and needs to stay where it is. If the city wants to add bus service or some other kind of transit from the dorm area to the station that is certainly not a bad idea and is something I would support.

[venture]

Apparently there is an issue with quoting posts in this thread. LOL

Now as far as a new rail station, I agree with LJ - leave it where it is. The schedule as it is now is useless by students for the most part unless they are doing day trips to Ft. Worth. I would like to see the schedule improved to have more frequency to Ft. Worth. However that would need something like Kerry's two car commuter trains running down there. I would also think a new trolley/street car system from Downtown Norman to OU and UNP would be a good addition and would help funnel people to the Amtrack service.

[Pioneer]

"Moving Forward." Remember, this is a wish list after all. There are no wrong answers. The argument of not 4-laning because it would take out beautiful trees? Have you seen what the ice storm and OG&E have done to those trees? And increasing traffic? That's what happens to growing cities. It's not small town Norman anymore and so we need to adapt. It's this kind of thinking that has kept Norman in check and provided great opportunities to Moore. We are our own worst enemy. Central Norman is becoming more popular, downtown is being revitalized, campus is bigger than ever. It's time to recognize that and build the infrastructure to support it. Road Traffic is the bulk of everything. Pedestrian travel is barely a percent of how people get around. Let's get the 4-laners, strap on the sidewalks, and make Norman accessible.

As for rail, I was never a believer in trains mainly because everything has always been within a couple miles of where I was. But using the DART in Dallas was amazing. Using the train in San Diego was amazing. DC, amazing. If a train conveniently connected me to brick town or DT OkC, I may use it. But definitely not from pt a to pt b in Norman.

I'm always surprised to see arguments against building things that are undeniably necessary because of something like trees or traffic speed. Really? Tell me it's too expensive or against code, or we can't tear down houses, but don't tell me it's because cars may drive too fast and those trees are mature. I love me some trees but I don't have the cojones to use that in an argument!

Keep it coming with the ideas, I like what I'm seeing (minus the naysayers).

[ljbab728]

Central Norman is becoming more popular, downtown is being revitalized, campus is bigger than ever. It's time to recognize that and build the infrastructure to support it. (minus the naysayers).

I'm not against it because of trees. I just see it as totally unnecessary. Downtown Norman has been revitalized for quite a few years. Most of the automobile traffic going there doesn't come from the North or South. It comes from the West or East. It seems you want four lane streets just to have four lane streets. It won't solve any major traffic problems.

[Pioneer]

I want 4 lane streets for the major N-S & E-W central routes. With downtown, campus, the County Seat, and 100,000+ population, I feel that at least 1 central N-S 4-lane would help. Especially with the work being done for the Robinson underpass and how N Flood has a nice heavy traffic large road heading south from I35. When i saw how wide they made the base there at Flood and Robinson, I thought prepping it for 4-lane capacity was the intent.

By the way, is there any foreseeable way to make a Loop-like hwy/road running from 35 To the East and meeting up south at hwy 9? (potentially by way of the Newcastle hwy 37east thru Norman to near lake Dirtybird and back south to 9)

[venture]

I want 4 lane streets for the major N-S & E-W central routes. With downtown, campus, the County Seat, and 100,000+ population, I feel that at least 1 central N-S 4-lane would help. Especially with the work being done for the Robinson underpass and how N Flood has a nice heavy traffic large road heading south from I35. When i saw how wide they made the base there at Flood and Robinson, I thought prepping it for 4-lane capacity was the intent.

I would be too hesitant to want to cookie cutter the older sections of Norman to be like a typical suburban area that we see away from the city core. Yes the city is growing, but that doesn't mean that certain areas of the city should be disturbed. Those central sections (most of them) haven't seen massive population growth spurts or huge massive developments.

By the way, is there any foreseeable way to make a Loop-like hwy/road running from 35 To the East and meeting up south at hwy 9? (potentially by way of the Newcastle hwy 37east thru Norman to near lake Dirtybird and back south to 9)

Only if the turnpike commission does it. Norman could really use a loop that would go from Hwy 37/I-44 east to 48th SE and then south to Hwy 9. Not to mention another connection going north either replacing 12th/Sooner or go just east of there along the path of 24th/Air Depot.

[ou48A]

I also have personal knowledge about this and I also respectfully say you are wrong. Moving the Amtrak station would not improve student ridership in the least. That small distance is not detering any student (girl or otherwise) from using Amtrak if they want to. Amtrak leaves Norman to Fort Worth at 8:49AM which isn't dark. The return train arrives at 8:53PM which is after dark part of the year but certainly not late. Do the students you talk to live with walking distance of the Amtrak station in Forth Worth? I doubt it. I know from past conversations you are in favor of a new rail complex in the Duck Pond area and I am adamantly opposed to disturbing that area with something like that. The Norman Amtrak station is in the perfect location and needs to stay where it is. If the city wants to add bus service or some other kind of transit from the dorm area to the station that is certainly not a bad idea and is something I would support.

The Students at the FW end have a bus and rail system to take them closer to their destination and chances are that they have parents to pick them up.
There is not nearly enough room near the current Norman train station to build a smaller Norman hub station. Most of the OU and city of Norman leaders already know this and as I said it has been indicated to me that Norman will not have commuter rail service without some type of OU station.

Regardless of Amtrak there will eventually be an OU station severing the commuter rail needs of campus and of central Norman. For financial and functional reasons it doesn’t make any sense to not relocate the Norman Amtrak station to the OU station. If we want a system that maximizes ridership building the a hub station as close as practical to where the largest number of peoples destinations are is smarter than spending resources on a system that would be underutilized becuase of poor design / location.

Very few people including students consider the current station within walking distance. They are not willing walk to the downtown Norman third world train station that is well out of their personal comfort zone, daytime or night time.

If we are concerned about aesthetics issues I’m very confident that Molly will see to it that these issues will be successfully addressed.
Quite frankly the man-made Duck pond could use a major rehabilitation. I envision an elevated platform using sight and sound blocking features in its design and also on the current rail line. The impact would not be that disturbing and would be far less disturbing than the current nearby freight trains that remove any thought of this being a tranquil environment as it is.

[ou48A]

Apparently there is an issue with quoting posts in this thread. LOL

Now as far as a new rail station, I agree with LJ - leave it where it is. The schedule as it is now is useless by students for the most part unless they are doing day trips to Ft. Worth. I would like to see the schedule improved to have more frequency to Ft. Worth. However that would need something like Kerry's two car commuter trains running down there. I would also think a new trolley/street car system from Downtown Norman to OU and UNP would be a good addition and would help funnel people to the Amtrack service.

The current Norman departing time is not very student or people friendly, but they are discussing plans to change departing and arrival times.

They are studying the idea of adding service to / from, Kansas City - Wichita - Oklahoma City - Fort Worth. They are also studying Tulsa - Oklahoma City service.

Making any transportation system as user friendly as practical for the most amounts of people seems logical to me.
If we want people using trains of any type then so far as it is possible maximizing speed and maximizing convenience need to be priorities.

[ou48A]

Need better lighting everywhere. Population is going up and I'm noticing more crime in areas that were traditionally very safe neighborhoods.

One of the worst areas of Norman is the area close to the rail road tracks between campus and downtown.
It doesn’t bother me all that much; I would not want to hang out in this area for long.
But this is a scary part of town for many day or night.
The area needs better lighting.

[shane453]

The argument of not 4-laning because it would take out beautiful trees? Have you seen what the ice storm and OG&E have done to those trees? And increasing traffic? That's what happens to growing cities.

You are missing the point and dumbing down the argument. Despite ice storm, etc, the historic trees are a major driver of property values and the general identity (and marketing) of central Norman. The trees are just one example of the larger kit of parts that give the central neighborhoods their attractiveness- shaded streets, interesting architecture, a mix of incomes and housing options, neighborhood commercial centers, pocket parks, pleasant walking and biking environments, etc.

Besides all that sentimental stuff, from a pure traffic engineering standpoint (which considers NO extraneous factors like charm and walkability) it is still a bad idea. Currently, all the north-south streets have approximately equal priority- they are sharing the load of north-south traffic. Adding a four-lane road would set a priority north-south route psychologically, funneling traffic that may have otherwise used another street, and before long we will be debating the installation of additional lanes.

Central Norman is becoming more popular, downtown is being revitalized, campus is bigger than ever. It's time to recognize that and build the infrastructure to support it. Road Traffic is the bulk of everything. Pedestrian travel is barely a percent of how people get around. Let's get the 4-laners, strap on the sidewalks, and make Norman accessible.

Why do you think central Norman is becoming so popular? Shouldn't these supposedly dire traffic problems be driving people away? Nope, people are coming because the area is unique from all of the other neighborhoods that are being constructed in Oklahoma which are all surrounded by 4-6 lanes of traffic and 8' brick walls to block the noise. Norman has historic value and character. You can put as much sidewalk as you want on a 4-lane road with 45 mph posted speed limits, it still won't be a nice experience to walk along it. Wouldn't you just LOVE to walk down Ed Noble Parkway?

Finally, who are we making Norman accessible for by installing additional lanes? Car lanes are not increasing a level of accessibility, they are only marginally increasing the speed of accessibility, and only for those who are able to own and drive a car. This leaves out the poor, the disabled, children under 16, the elderly, and many OU students (especially International students). Even for those who own a car, is the gain in speed enough to justify the enormous public and private expenses?