Norman Transportation Plan "Moving Forward"

[Pioneer]

http://www.progressnorman.com/projects/

Norman has its chance to start chipping a way at some transportation needs in an upcoming Bond Issue. Nothing comes without its challenges, but the long discussed 5-laning of Lindsey Street will finally get a chance. Although there may be other needs that some feel more important, I think its important to vote yes to the chances we get. If this fails, it solves nothing and then creates doubt and apathy for anything else we would like to see on future bond issues. Let's face it, the bond rates are at lows and the city has a chance to do something that was needed 20+ years ago. Let's push this through so other projects can be addressed on the next one.

August 28th is the vote.

[Just the facts]

Do you really think making Lindsey 5 lanes is going to solve the traffic problem? Isn't a wider road just going to encourage more people to use it? I mean, it isn't like the traffic count will stay the same after it goes to 5 lanes. Five years after it is done and traffic is worse will you consider the thought that adding lanes doesn't work?

Checkout Traffic Equilibrium

http://www.ifor.math.ethz.ch/press/L...tober_2006.pdf

or skip that and go right to the Braess paradox

http://vcp.med.harvard.edu/braess-paradox.html

Spoiler alert - adding capacity makes traffic worse. Look at ODOT's plan for the elevated boulevard in OKC. Today 0 cars drive that route because the old I-40 is closed. ODOT says if they build their elevated road 94,000 cars a day will use it. Where are those 94,000 cars today? They certainly aren't on downtown streets today. Conversely, if every street in America went away tonight (wake up in the morning and all the streets are gone) - would there be traffic congestion at 8AM? The answer is no - there would not be traffic congestion.

I watched a really good documentary tonight on urban planning and a couple of cities had a really good wat to solve the traffic problems. They are eliminating all parking. You can drive if you want, but there is no where to park your car when you get there.

[ljbab728]

Of course let's just ignore the fact that this stretch of road is one of the highest accident areas in the state. That and the massive flooding that routinely takes place here doesn't matter in the least. Let's just turn it into a cow path again which would be the best for everyone. If there was an alternative route to this available people would be using it now. That's just a silly argument. You're trying to compare a freeway to an arterial city street. The amount of people needing to get from west Norman to the campus area isn't going to change because this road is widened and won't go down if it's left as it is. Kerry you need to learn to live in the real world. Your urban planning idea won't work in every case. Sans mass transit how do you expect university students who can't live in Norman to get there? Many are not full time students and have jobs elsewhere. Not everyone can arrange their lives to fit your wishes.

[Just the facts]

Sans mass transit how do you expect university students who can't live in Norman to get there?

So after the people get off I-35 on the new 5-lane Lindsey Street, how far back do you think traffic will stack at Berry where it goes back to 2 lanes? The high accident rate is probably a reflection of the inexperieced drivers who frequent this road so adding lanes and speed should go smoothly, especially with the introduction of bicycles.

This is going to make a nice urban planning case study for someone in 10 years.

[BoulderSooner]

Do you really think making Lindsey 5 lanes is going to solve the traffic problem? Isn't a wider road just going to encourage more people to use it? I mean, it isn't like the traffic count will stay the same after it goes to 5 lanes. Five years after it is done and traffic is worse will you consider the thought that adding lanes doesn't work?

Spoiler alert - adding capacity makes traffic worse. Look at ODOT's plan for the elevated boulevard in OKC. Today 0 cars drive that route because the old I-40 is closed. ODOT says if they build their elevated road 94,000 cars a day will use it. Where are those 94,000 cars today? They certainly aren't on downtown streets today. Conversely, if every street in America went away tonight (wake up in the morning and all the streets are gone) - would there be traffic congestion at 8AM? The answer is no - there would not be traffic congestion.

I watched a really good documentary tonight on urban planning and a couple of cities had a really good wat to solve the traffic problems. They are eliminating all parking. You can drive if you want, but there is no where to park your car when you get there.

really so you think the traffic is worse on Broadway extension at its current 3 lanes on each side then it would be at 2 lanes on each side or 1 lane each direction??

lindsay in norman is one of the worst roads in the entire metro for traffic/wrecks and flooding .. and it will be much better on all 3 counts ..


is your point of view that no road should ever be expanded for any reason???

[Just the facts]

really so you think the traffic is worse on Broadway extension at its current 3 lanes on each side then it would be at 2 lanes on each side or 1 lane each direction??

lindsay in norman is one of the worst roads in the entire metro for traffic/wrecks and flooding .. and it will be much better on all 3 counts ..


is your point of view that no road should ever be expanded for any reason???

No one said anything about not fixing flooding. A city functions much better with a good grid of two-way streets (with one lane in each direction) and boulevards. Lindsey will not be either of those. However, I have time so am content to wait and watch this project NOT deliver. Sure, it will be great for the first year or two - then the traffic will come and in 5 years traffic will be just as bad as it is right now. Just look at the very same people in this thread complaining about traffic on I-35 (in another thread) AFTER it was 'fixed' (widened) a few years ago.

Maybe we should go ahead and define success now. How much should accidents decline, how much travel time should be saved, and how much should traffic counts go up to be considered a success?

[BoulderSooner]

No one said anything about not fixing flooding. A city functions much better with a good grid of two-way streets (with one lane in each direction) and boulevards. Lindsey will not be either of those. However, I have time so am content to wait and watch this project NOT deliver. Sure, it will be great for the first year or two - then the traffic will come and in 5 years traffic will be just as bad as it is right now. Just look at the very same people in this thread complaining about traffic on I-35 (in another thread) AFTER it was 'fixed' (widened) a few years ago.

Maybe we should go ahead and define success now. How much should accidents decline, how much travel time should be saved, and how much should traffic counts go up to be considered a success?

I35 for 60 min a day is apples and oranges with Lindsay that is horrible 15 hours a day ..

why will this road once 4 lanes not be like every other 4 lanes road in norman??


and i will ask again In your opinion should any road ever be expanded??

[ou48A]

http://www.progressnorman.com/projects/

Norman has its chance to start chipping a way at some transportation needs in an upcoming Bond Issue. Nothing comes without its challenges, but the long discussed 5-laning of Lindsey Street will finally get a chance. Although there may be other needs that some feel more important, I think its important to vote yes to the chances we get. If this fails, it solves nothing and then creates doubt and apathy for anything else we would like to see on future bond issues. Let's face it, the bond rates are at lows and the city has a chance to do something that was needed 20+ years ago. Let's push this through so other projects can be addressed on the next one.

August 28th is the vote.

I agree… Vote yes

If Norman wants too be looked at as a serious player for high end job relocations then problems like this bond issue address needs to be passed. It’s a very competitive world and if we want to play in the big boy arena we must build what is necessary to stay competitive. Decade’s old and out of date streets and highways are a big deterrent.

The Lindsey street should have been 5 landed when at the same time I -35 was first built…. so we are left playing catch up. It’s not too soon to start thinking about what projects should come after this bond package. When it would benefit thousands of people every day and improve safety for many more, 4 or 5-laning Lindsey Street all the way to OU’s campus should be a top priority in the next Norman bond package.

[venture]

4 or 5-laning Lindsey Street all the way to OU’s campus should be a top priority in the next Norman bond package.

Berry is far enough. You are getting into the realm of removing houses when you try to go all the way. Not going to happen.

[Just the facts]

I35 for 60 min a day is apples and oranges with Lindsay that is horrible 15 hours a day ..

why will this road once 4 lanes not be like every other 4 lanes road in norman??


and i will ask again In your opinion should any road ever be expanded??

I wouldn't spend another dime widening roads in Norman. However, I would convert Main St and Gray back to two-way, put in traffic circles at Flood, University, and Porter, fix the flooding, and start spending the money on mass transit; one route from Norman Regional to OU and a second route down Main St to the Sooner Mall area. They would connect at a downtown train station with regional service to OKC and Amtrak.

[ou48A]

Berry is far enough. You are getting into the realm of removing houses when you try to go all the way. Not going to happen.

If the new right of way is taken from the north side of the street there are only a few mostly dumpy houses on the north side street that would to be moved. It’s a very doable project that would reduce safety issues and befitted many thousands of people every day. It would help decongest this part of Norman.

Over the next 10 to 20 years it would be smart if the city could buy up property on the north side of Lindsey Street as it naturally becomes available for sale

[ou48A]

I wouldn't spend another dime widening roads in Norman. However, I would convert Main St and Gray back to two-way, put in traffic circles at Flood, University, and Porter, fix the flooding, and start spending the money on mass transit; one route from Norman Regional to OU and a second route down Main St to the Sooner Mall area. They would connect at a downtown train station with regional service to OKC and Amtrak.

With all due respect about 90% of this^ is fairy land stuff.
Other than maybe commuter rail it would never help 99% of the Norman population.
Cars and Trucks are not going away. A higher quality of life says we need modern day streets and highways in our area.

[ou48A]

According to city of Norman Transportation officials that I have spoken with there will be an OU train/ bus station located near OU’s duck pond and that Amtrak’s train station will eventually be moved to this location.

With Norman’s highest population density located within walking distance and with OU being Norman largest destination by far this location makes the most sense for the community. There will also be a commuter rail park and ride station on the north side of Norman.

[Just the facts]

Cars and Trucks are not going away. A higher quality of life says we need modern day streets and highways in our area.

Did I suggest closing any existing roads? It is really pretty simple. In the last 80 years how many lane-miles of roads has the City of Norman built, and how many times have they been repaved? How many rail-miles has the City of Norman built in the last 80 years? How about walkable sidewalk miles over the last 80 years (any of that done in the last 50)?

Norman has used 99.999% of its transportation spending on roads, and what do they have to show for it, a city of 100,000 where every person over the age of 18 has to own a car to be a fully functional adult and traffic congestion. Then people complain that the number one private industry in Norman is car dealers. Well no duh, everyone has to have one.

[ou48A]

Did I suggest closing any existing roads? It is really pretty simple. In the last 80 years how many lane-miles of roads has the City of Norman built, and how many times have they been repaved? How many rail-miles has the City of Norman built in the last 80 years? How about walkable sidewalk miles over the last 80 years (any of that done in the last 50)?

Norman has used 99.999% of its transportation spending on roads, and what do they have to show for it, a city of 100,000 where every person over the age of 18 has to own a car to be a fully functional adult and traffic congestion. Then people complain that the number one private industry in Norman is car dealers. Well no duh, everyone has to have one.

What you have been suggesting here and elsewhere is almost totally impractical and just isn’t going to happen.

In recent years the city has spent a great deal of money on wide concrete trails. I hardly ever see anyone on them…. In the meantime many of the sidewalks that are actually used a lot are in areas surrounding OU. In many cases they are old and in a state of serious disrepair. In fact some are dangerous!

There are dozens of miles of poorly designed residential streets that need to be rebuilt and brought to modern day drainage standards. Most desire a high quality suburban life style and the freedom that a vehicle brings.

There has been a powerful anti-growth faction in Norman who has held too much influence in the decision making process. When combined with mostly weak minded leaders over a long period of time who have often stoped at the first sign of opposition the list of
needed projects in Norman is very lengthy.

[Just the facts]

It is funny that you associate the automobile dependency with quality of life when it seems to be the exact opposite in reality. Places that don't need cars are consistantly ranked as best places to live. I seldom hear of sidewalk rage.

[Plutonic Panda]

I would choose a car over light rail or HSR any day.

[venture]

I would choose a car over light rail or HSR any day.

If trips were frequent and convenient I would have no problem doing light rail or a local street car service. True HSR would be great, but just isn't going to happen here.

[BoulderSooner]

If trips were frequent and convenient I would have no problem doing light rail or a local street car service. True HSR would be great, but just isn't going to happen here.

not until okc/dallas has the population density of new york philly new jersey ect

[Just the facts]

Where would you go on HSR? A commuter train between OKC and Norman would easily make most of the trip at 80 mph.

[BoulderSooner]

Where would you go on HSR? A commuter train between OKC and Norman would easily make most of the trip at 80 mph.

highly unlikely

[ou48A]

A commuter train between OKC and Norman would easily make most of the trip at 80 mph.

It’s about 35 miles from Fort Worth to Dallas on their TRE. It takes about an hour to make the trip.

Unless we do something different that’s probably fairly close to the average speed we could expect with commuter rail system in our area. I would like to see a higher average speed because it’s going to be a lot faster to drive than taking a train going at those speeds.

[Just the facts]

It’s about 35 miles from Fort Worth to Dallas on their TRE. It takes about an hour to make the trip.

Unless we do something different that’s probably fairly close to the average speed we could expect with commuter rail system in our area. I would like to see a higher average speed because it’s going to be a lot faster to drive than taking a train going at those speeds.

Downtown Norman to downtown OKC is 18 miles via the exiting tracks. So 35/60 = 18/X; X = 31 minutes from Norman to OKC. TRE also makes 8 stops on the way. At most OKC to Norman would have 2 stops so even the 31 minute number is high.

I can't speak for Ft Worth, but I rode commuter rail in Philly on a regular basis and we topped out at 80 mph.

[Plutonic Panda]

If trips were frequent and convenient I would have no problem doing light rail or a local street car service. True HSR would be great, but just isn't going to happen here.

Believe me, I would love to see a lighter rail service like Salt Lake City or Portland and possibly an even more extensive LRS those cities have. Also, I agree with ou48A that a car does bring freedom and I just wouldn't feel that same sense riding a train everyday as I would a car. But I still would love to see a LRS running from the airport to Downtown, Edmond, Norman, MWC and possibly Yukon.

[venture]

Believe me, I would love to see a lighter rail service like Salt Lake City or Portland and possibly an even more extensive LRS those cities have. Also, I agree with ou48A that a car does bring freedom and I just wouldn't feel that same sense riding a train everyday as I would a car. But I still would love to see a LRS running from the airport to Downtown, Edmond, Norman, MWC and possibly Yukon.

I personally would love to see WRWA as the main hub for a rail network in Oklahoma. A true (as much as we can here in Oklahoma) intermodal facility. Of course I would be a bit biased, but it would make it better for me to just take the train to and from work every day. Plus the airport already has the parking facilities that can be expanded.