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Thread: Norman Transportation Plan "Moving Forward"

  1. #51

    Default Re: Norman Transportation Plan "Moving Forward"

    I didn’t see the entire meeting but this information comes from a City of Norman study session that was aired on Cox Cable 20 in Norman. It will probably be shown again.

    Limited numbers of Norman residents will be receiving a questioner / survey from the city of Norman asking them about their thoughts on Norman’s future transportation needs. Developing a transportation plan will take 18 to 24 months.

    Currently 40 of 140 traffic signals can be remotely controlled. They might expand the number.

    I got the impression that they had received strong input over the need to improve game day traffic.
    The City of Norman has held meetings with OU officials and in the future will hold meetings with OU students.

  2. #52

    Default Re: Norman Transportation Plan "Moving Forward"

    Several times I have heard the Norman mayor and others compare Norman to Lawrence Kansas.

    Lawrence has a much better highway network than Norman.
    On its north side Lawrence has I -70
    Lawrence has a 4 lane limited access highway on its south and west sides.
    In addition to I -70 Lawrence has a second highway built to interstate standards that goes to KC.
    Lawrence has two 4 lane bridges over its river and there are other state highways leading in and out of the Lawrence area.
    The state of Kansas is building another major highway to interstate standards south out of Lawrence to I – 135. It’s about 30 miles long.
    The population of Lawrence is about 93,000.

    In the Manhattan area the state of Kansas is also building a second 4 lane road to I-70. There are 3 major bridges over the river in the Manhattan area. The Manhattan KS population is about 52000.

    The population of Norman is about 111,000 and hasn’t seen anywhere close to this type of commitment from the state of Oklahoma in spite of higher traffic numbers.

  3. Default Re: Norman Transportation Plan "Moving Forward"

    Probably comes down to being little brother to OKC. The Kilpatrick extension into Yukon really didn't do much. Just like the Norman Spur to I-44. Norman is going to continue to grow out, though not as fast as OKC has. No reason why a loop couldn't be install now that starts around Hwy 9 and 48th SE up north and around between Indian Hills and Franklin and then due west to I-44.

    If anything, they could probably easily call the section east of I-35 a new route for US 77 and then extend US 277 to the section from the new interchange near Newcastle/I-44 to Norman/I-35.

  4. Default Re: Norman Transportation Plan "Moving Forward"

    Lawrence roads are stupid. You want to move east to west in the town you either do 6th or 23rd street. If there is a wreck on either one of those you are screwed.

  5. #55

    Default Re: Norman Transportation Plan "Moving Forward"

    Quote Originally Posted by ChargerAg View Post
    Lawrence roads are stupid. You want to move east to west in the town you either do 6th or 23rd street. If there is a wreck on either one of those you are screwed.
    But most of the highways in the Lawrence area aren’t stupid and they are getting better.

  6. #56

    Default Re: Norman Transportation Plan "Moving Forward"

    All those new roads around Lawrence and they still need to build more?

    From Suburban Nation (please read - if for no other reason than it took me a long time copy this).

    WHY TRAFFIC IS CONGESTED

    The first complaint one always hears about suburbia is the traffic congestion. More than any other factor, the perception of excessive traffic is what causes citizens to take up arms against growth in suburban communities. This perception is generally justified: in most American cities, the worst traffic is to be found not downtown but in the surrounding suburbs, where an "edge city" chokes highways that were originally built for lighter loads. In newer cities such as Phoenix and Atlanta, where there is not much of a downtown to speak of, traffic congestion is consistently cited as the single most frustrating aspect of daily life.

    Why have suburban areas, with their height limits and low density of population, proved to be such a traffic nightmare? The first reason, and the obvious one, is that everyone is forced to drive. In modern suburbia, where pedestrians, bicycles, and public transportation are rarely an option, the average household currently generates thirteen car trips per day. Even if each trip is fairly short—and few are — that's a lot of time spent on the road, contributing to congestion, especially when compared to life in traditional neighborhoods. Traffic engineer Rick Cheliman, in his landmark study of Portsmouth, New Hampshire, applied standard suburban trip-generation rates to that town's historic core, and found that they predicted twice as much traffic as actually existed there. Owing to its pedestrian-friendly plan—and in spite of its pedestrian-unfriendly weather—Portsmouth generates half the automobile trips of a modern-day suburb.

    But even if the suburbs were to generate no more trips than the city, they would still suffer from traffic to a much greater extent because of the way they are organized. The diagram shown here illustrates how a suburban road system, what engineers call a sparse hierarchy, differs from a traditional street network. The components of the suburban model are easy to spot in the top half of the diagram: the shopping mall in its sea of parking, the fast-food joints, the apartment complex, the looping cul-de-sacs of the housing subdivision. Buffered from the others, each of these components has its own individual connection to a larger external road called the collector. Every single trip from one component to another, no matter how short, must enter the collector. Thus, the traffic of an entire community may rely on a single road, which, as a result, is generally congested during much of the day. If there is a major accident on the collector, the entire system is rendered useless until it is cleared.

    A typical neighborhood is shown in the bottom half of the diagram. lt accommodates all the same components as the suburban model, but they are organized as a web, a densely interconnected system that reduces demand on the collector road. Unlike suburbia, the neighborhood presents the opportunity to walk or bicycle. But even if few do so, its gridded network is superior at handling automobile traffic, providing multiple routes between destinations. Because the entire System is available for local travel, trips are dispersed, and traffic on most streets remains light. If there is an accident, drivers simply choose an alternate path. The efficiency of the traditional grid explains why Charleston, South Carolina, at 2,500 acres, handles an annual tourist load of 5.5 million people with little congestion, while Hilton Head Island, ten times larger, experiences severe backups at 1.5 million visitors. Hilton Head, for years the suburban planners' exemplar, focuses all its traffic on a single collector road.

    The suburban model does offer one advantage over the neighborhood model: it is much easier to analyze statistically. Because every single trip follows a predetermined path, traffic can be measured and predicted accurately. When the same measurement techniques are applied to an open network, the statistical chart goes flat; prediction becomes impossible and, indeed, unnecessary. But the suburban model still holds sway, and traffic engineers enjoy a position of unprecedented infiuence, often determining single-handedly what gets built and what doesn't. That traffic can occupy such a dominant position in the public discourse is indication enough that planning needs to be rethought from top to bottom.

    WHEN NEARBY IS STILL FAR AWAY

    Another paradox of suburban planning is the distinction that it creates between adjacency and accessibility. While many of the destinations of daily life are often next to each other, only rarely are they easy to reach directly.

    For example, even though the houses pictured here are adjacent to the shopping center, in experience they are considerably more distant. Local ordinances have forced the developers to build a wall between the two properties, discouraging even the most intrepid citizen from walking to the store. The resident of a house just fifty yards away must still get into the car, drive half a mile to exit the subdivision, drive another half mile on the collector road back to the shopping center, and then walk from car to store. What could have been a pleasant two-minute walk down a residential street becomes instead an expedition requiring the use of gasoline, roadway capacity, and space for parking.

    Supporters of this separatist single-use zoning argue that people do not want to live near shopping. This is only partially true. Some don't, and some do. But suburbia does not provide that choice, because even adjacent uses are contrived to be distant. The planning model that does provide citizens with a choice can be seen in the New England town pictured here. One can live above the store, next to the store, five minutes from the store, or nowhere near the store, and it is easy to imagine the different age groups and personalities that would prefer each alternative. In this way and others, the traditional neighborhood provides for an array of lifestyles. In suburbia, there is only one available lifestyle: to own a car and to need it for everything.

    THE AMERICAN TRANSPORTATION MESS

    THE HIGHWAYLESS TOWN AND THE TOWNLESS HIGHWAY;
    WHY ADDING LANES MAKES TRAFFIC WORSE;

    THE AUTOMOBILE SUBSIDY
    During the height of automania, a zoologist observed that in animal herds excessive mobility was a sure sign of distress and asked whether this might not be true of his fellow human beings. Perhaps it was distress but what historian can list all the causes that led twentieth century man to race from highway to byway, tunnel to bridge? Suffice to say that he seemed to be constantly going from where he didn't want to be to where he didn't want to stay.
    - PERCIVAL GOODMAN, COMMUNITAS (1960)

    Redesigning streets and roads for pedestrian viability is a first step toward making our neighborhoods more livable, but there is a larger problem still to be addressed: this country's fundamentally misguided approach to transportation planning as a whole. Because settlement patterns depend more than anything else upon transportation Systems, it is impossible to discuss one without discussing the other.

    While we do enjoy the benefits of an effective system for the national distribution of goods—nobody is lining up outside shops with empty shelves—it would still be difficult to overstate the degree to which transportation policy has damaged both our cities and our countryside. This outcome was by no means inevitable; in fact, we knew better all along. By 1940, the rules that should govern the development of a transportation network for the healthy growth of society were well known. They were widely acknowledged, thoroughly disseminated, and, apparently immediately forgotten.

    THE HIGHWAYLESS TOWN
    AND THE TOWNLESS HIGHWAY

    The most significant of these rules is illustrated, alongside its violation, in the accompanying diagram. This drawing, more than any other, depicts the greatest failure of American postwar planning, and helps to explain why our country faces both an urban and an environmental crisis. Titled "The Townless Highway and the Highwayless Town," the upper half illustrates the proper relationship between high-speed roadways and places of settlement. Highways connect cities hut do not pass through them. Norman Bel Geddes, the designer of the U.S. Interstate system, declared in 1939, "Motorways must not be allowed to infringe upon the City." Where they do provide access to the City, highways must take on the low-speed geometries of avenues and boulevards. In exchange for this courtesy, the city does not allow itself to grow along the highway. Where high-speed roads pass through the countryside, roadside development is not permitted. The results of these rules are plain to see in much of Western Europe: cities, for the most part, have retained their pedestrian-friendly quality, and most highways provide views of uninterrupted countryside.

    This country has allowed the exact opposite to occur. As depicted in the lower half, highways were routed directly through the centers of our Cities, eviscerating entire neighborhoods—typically, African American neighborhoods—and splitting downtowns into pieces. Meanwhile, the commercial strip attached itseif like a parasite to the highway between cities, impeding through traffic and blighting the countryside in the process. The damage is not yet complete, for we continue to let this happen, with predictable results. How obvious and damaging does an error need to be before it is addressed and corrected? Jane Jacobs may have answered this question in The Death and Life of Great American Cities: "The pseudo-science of planning seems almost neurotic in its determination to imitate empiric failure and ignore empiric success."

    WHY ADDING LANES MAKES TRAFFIC WORSE

    There is, however; a much deeper problem than the way highways are placed and managed. It raises the question of why we are still building highways at all. The simple truth is that building more highways and widening existing roads, almost always motivated by concern over traffic, does nothing to reduce traffic. In the long run, in fact, it increases traffic. This revelation is so counterintuitive that it bears repeating: adding lanes makes traffic worse. This paradox was suspected as early as 1942 by Robert Moses, who noticed that the highways he had built around New York City in 1939 were somehow generating greater traffic problems than had existed previously. Since then, the phenomenon has been well documented, most notably in 1989, when the Southern California Association of Governments concluded that traffic-assistance measures, be they adding lanes, or even double-decking the roadways, would have no more than a cosmetic effect on Los Angeles traffic problems. The best it could offer was to tell people to work closer to home, which is precisely what highway building mitigates against.

    Across the Atlantic, the British government reached a similar conclusion. Its studies showed that increased traffic capacity causes people to drive more — a lot more — such that half of any driving-time savings generated by new roadways are lost in the short run. In the long run, potentially all savings are expected to be lost. In the words of the Transport Minister, "The fact of the matter is that we cannot tackle our traffic problems by building more roads." While the British have responded to this discovery by drastically cutting their road-building budgets, no such thing can be said about Americans.

    There is no shortage of hard data. A recent University of California at Berkeley study covering thirty California counties between 1973 and 1990 found that, for every 10 percent increase in roadway capacity, traffic increased 9 percent within four years' time. For anecdotal evidence, one need only look at commuting patterns in those cities with expensive new highway systems. USA Today published the following report on Atlanta: "For years, Atlanta tried to ward off traffic problems by building more miles of highways per capita than any other urban area except Kansas City... As a result of the area's sprawl, Atlantans now drive an average of 35 miles a day, more than residents of any other city." This phenomenon, which is now well known to those members of the transportation industry who wish to acknowledge it, has come to be called induced traffic.

    The mechanism at work behind induced traffic is elegantly explained by an aphorism gaining popularity among traffic engineers: "Trying to cure traffic congestion by adding more capacity is like trying to cure obesity by loosening your belt." Increased traffic capacity makes longer commutes less burdensome, and as a result, people are willing to live farther and farther from their workplace. As increasing numbers of people make similar decisions, the long distance commute grows as crowded as the inner city, commuters clamor for additional lanes, and the cycle repeats itself. This problem is compounded by the hierarchical organization of the new roadways, which concentrates through traffic on as few streets as possible.

    The phenomenon of induced traffic works in reverse as well. When New York's West Side Highway collapsed in 1973, an NYDOT study showed that 93 percent of the car trips lost did not reappear elsewhere; people simply stopped driving. A similar result accompanied the destruction of San Francisco's Embarcadero Freeway in the 1989 earthquake. Citizens voted to remove the freeway entirely despite the apocalyptic warnings of traffic engineers. Surprisingly, a recent British study found that downtown road removals tend to boost local economies, while new roads lead to higher urban unemployment. So much for road-building as a way to spur the economy.

    If traffic is to he discussed responsibly, it must first be made clear that the level of traffic which drivers experience daily, and which they bemoan so vehemently, is only as high as they are willing to countenance. If it were not, they would adjust their behavior and move, carpool, take transit, or just stay at home, as some choose to do. How crowded a roadway is at any given moment represents a condition of equilibrium between people’s desire to drive and their reluctance to fight traffic. Because people are willing to suffer inordinately in traffic before seeking alternatives — other than clamoring for more highways — the state of equilibrium of all busy roads is to have stop and go traffic. The question is not how many lanes must he built to ease congestion but how many lanes of congestion you want. Do you favor four lanes of bumper-to-bumper traffic at rush hour, or sixteen?

    This condition is best explained by what specialists call latent demand. Since the real constraint on driving is traffic, not cost, people are always ready to make more trips when the traffic goes away. The number of latent trips is huge—perhaps 30 percent of existing traffic. Because of latent demand, adding lanes is futile, since drivers are already poised to use them up.

    While the befuddling fact of induced traffic is well understood by sophisticated traffic engineers, it might as well be a secret, so poorly has it been disseminated. The Computer models that transportation consultants use do not even consider it, and most local public works directors have never heard of it at all. As a result, from Maine to Hawaii, City, county, and even state engineering departments continue to build more roadways in anticipation of increased traffic, and, in so doing, create that traffic. The most irksome aspect of this situation is that these road-builders are never proved wrong; in fact, they are always proved right: "You see," they say, I told you that traffic was coming."

    The ramifications are quite unsettling. Almost all of the billions of dollars spent on road-building over the past decades have accomplished only one thing, which is to increase the amount of time that we must spend in our cars each day. Americans now drive twice as many miles per year as they did just twenty years ago. Since 1969, the number of miles cars travel has grown at four times the population rate.' And we're just getting started: federal highway officials predict that over the next twenty years congestion will quadruple. Still, every congressman, it seems, wants a new highway to his credit.

    Thankfully, alternatives to road-building are being offered, but they are equally misguided. If, as is now clear beyond any reasonable doubt, people maintain an equilibrium of just-bearable traffic, then the traffic engineers are wasting their time—and our money on a whole new set of stopgap measures that produce temporary results at best. These measures, which include HOV (high-occupancy vehicle) lanes, congestion pricing, timed traffic lights, and "smart streets," serve only to increase highway capacity, which causes more people to drive until the equilibrium condition of crowding returns. While certainly less wasteful than new construction, these measures also do nothing to address the real cause of traffic congestion, which is that people choose to put up with it.

    We must admit that, in an ideal world, we would be able to build our way out of traffic congestion. The new construction of 50 percent more highways nationwide would most likely overcome all of the latent demand. However, to provide more than temporary relief, this huge investment would have to be undertaken hand in hand with a moratorium on suburban growth. Otherwise, the new subdivisions, shopping malls, and office parks made possible by the new roadways would eventually choke them as well. In the real world, such moratoriums are rarely possible, which is why road-building is typically a folly.

    Those who are skeptical of the need for a fundamental reconsideration of transportation planning should take note of something we experienced a few years ago. In a large working session on the design of Playa Vista, an urban infill project in Los Angeles, the traffic engineer was presenting a report of current and projected congestion around the development. From our seat by the window, we had an unobstructed rush-hour view of a street he had diagnosed as highly congested and in need of widening. Why, then, was traffic flowing smoothly, with hardly any stacking at the traffic light? When we asked, the traffic engineer offered an answer that should be recorded permanently in the annals of the profession: "The computer model that we use does not necessarily bear any relationship to reality."

    But the real question is why so many drivers choose to sit for hours in bumper-to-bumper traffic without seeking alternatives. Is it a manifestation of some deep-seated self-loathing, or are people just stupid? The answer is that people are actually quite smart, and their decision to submit themselves to the misery of suburban commuting is a sophisticated response to a set of circumstances that are as troubling as their result. Automobile use is the intelligent choice for most Americans because it is what economists refer to as a "free good": the consumer pays only a fraction of its true cost.

    The authors Stanley Hart and Alvin Spivak have explained that: We learn in first-year economics what happens when products or services become "free" goods. The market functions chaotically; demand goes through the roof. In most American cities, parking spaces, roads and freeways are free goods. Local government services to the motorist and to the trucking industry — traffic engineering, traffic control, traffic lights, police and fire protection, street repair and maintenance—are all free goods.

    THE AUTOMOBILE SUBSIDY

    To what extent is automobile use a "free" good? According to Hart and Spivak, government subsidies for highways and parking alone amount to between 8 and 10 percent of our gross national product, the equivalent of a fuel tax of approximately $3.50 per gallon.
    If this tax were to account for "soft' costs such as pollution cleanup and emergency medical treatment, it would be as high as $9.00 per gallon. The cost of these subsidies — approximately $5,000 per car per year — is passed directly on to the American citizen in the form of increased prices for products or, more often, as income, property, and sales taxes. This means that the hidden costs of driving are paid by everyone: not just drivers, but also those too old or too poor to drive a car. And these people suffer doubly, as the very transit systems they count on for mobility have gone out of business, unable to compete with the heavily subsidized highways.

    Even more irksome is the fact that spending on transit creates twice as many new jobs as spending on highways. In fact, every billion dollars reallocated from road-building to transit creates seven thousand jobs. Congress's recent $41 billion highway bill, had it been allocated to transit, would have employed an additional quarter-million people nationwide.

    Because they do not pay the full price of driving, most car owners choose to drive as much as possible. They are making the correct economic decision, but not in a free-market economy. As Hart and Spivak note, an appropriate analogy is Stalin's Gosplan, a Soviet agency that set arbitrary "correct" prices for many consumer goods, irrespective of their cost of production, with unsurprising results. In the American version of Gosplan, gasoline costs one quarter of what it did in 1929 (in real dollars). One need look no further for a reason why American cities continue to sprawl into the countryside. In Europe, where gasoline costs about four times the American price, long-distance automotive commuting is the exclusive privilege of the wealthy, and there is relatively little suburban sprawl.

    The American Gosplan pertains to shipping as well. In the current structure of subsidization, trucking is heavily favored over rail transport, even though trucks consume fifteen limes the fuel for the equivalent job. The government pays a $300 billion subsidy to truckers unthinkingly, while carefully scrutinizing every dollar allocated to transit. Similarly, we try to solve our commuter traffic problems by building highways instead of railways, even though it takes fifteen lanes of highway to move as many people as one lane of track. This predisposition toward automobile use is plainly evident in the prevalent terminology: money spent on roads is called "highway investment," while money spent on rails is called "transit subsidy."

    The American Gosplan is not a conspiracy so much as a culture — albeit one strongly supported by pervasive advertising — and it is probably unrealistic to hope that legislators will soon take steps, such as enacting a substantial gasoline tax, to allocate fairly the costs of driving. Pressured by generous automobile industry contributions on the one hand and a car-dependent public on the other, politicians have lately been using gas-tax elimination as an election strategy, with some success. But there is encouraging information suggesting that a gas tax may not be the political suicide that most politicians suspect. According to a recent Pew Foundation poll, 6o percent of those asked favored a twenty-five-cent-per-gallon gas tax to slow global warming.

    While there are many supposedly 'anti-business" arguments for higher gas tax — from fighting global warming to supporting public transit — the real justification is economic: subsidized automobile use is the single largest violation of the free-market principle in U.S. fiscal policy. Economic inefficiencies in this country due to automotive subsidization are estimated at $700 billion annually, which powerfully undermines America's ability to compete in the global economy. Although suburban sprawl is the concern in this book, it is not the only sad result of this fundamental error.

    The problems of automobile subsidization have been well documented; this is old news. And yet it is news which few people seem to understand, and which has barely begun to influence government policy in any significant way. So, to all the concerned activists nationwide who are banging their heads against the wall on this issue, we do not have very much to say except "May we join you at the wall?" Fortunately, the automobile subsidy is only one of many forces contributing to sprawl, and there are other avenues along which anti-sprawl efforts are likely to achieve meaningful results.


  7. #57

    Default Re: Norman Transportation Plan "Moving Forward"

    Quote Originally Posted by venture79 View Post
    Probably comes down to being little brother to OKC. The Kilpatrick extension into Yukon really didn't do much. Just like the Norman Spur to I-44. Norman is going to continue to grow out, though not as fast as OKC has. No reason why a loop couldn't be install now that starts around Hwy 9 and 48th SE up north and around between Indian Hills and Franklin and then due west to I-44.

    If anything, they could probably easily call the section east of I-35 a new route for US 77 and then extend US 277 to the section from the new interchange near Newcastle/I-44 to Norman/I-35.
    Venture I would agree that when it comes to state funding of highways Norman has basically been the little brother to OKC.
    But I also think much of this comes down to the goals and quality of our past leadership.

    Norman has had a small but vocal faction of no to slow growth and for keeping Norman quaint.
    But further big growth is inevitable. We will need to accommodate the growth with better transportation and other expanded city services such as increasing the water supply and a new sewage plant.

    I like your idea of an eastern loop but on it south side I would want it to cross the river near Nobel and intersect with I-35. On its north side I would want it to extend to the Turner Turnpike before curving back west to I-35. This would give the OKC Metro a bypass on its eastern side and lower traffic counts on I-35.

  8. #58

    Default Re: Norman Transportation Plan "Moving Forward"

    Quote Originally Posted by ou48A View Post
    I like your idea of an eastern loop but on it south side I would want it to cross the river near Nobel and intersect with I-35. On its north side I would want it to extend to the Turner Turnpike before curving back west to I-35. This would give the OKC Metro a bypass on its eastern side and lower traffic counts on I-35.
    In the history of freeway construction that has never happened. Induced traffic will use up the new capacty almost as soon as it is built (unless it is a toll road) and latent demand will re-congest I-35. Is Memorial Road any less crowded now than before the Kilpatrick was built? What about Broadway Extension; did Hefner Parkway solve any traffic problems there?

    The new roads will just result in more shopping centers and subdivisions that will require even more people to drive to them - a.k.a induced traffic.

  9. Default Re: Norman Transportation Plan "Moving Forward"

    Quote Originally Posted by ou48A View Post
    I like your idea of an eastern loop but on it south side I would want it to cross the river near Nobel and intersect with I-35. On its north side I would want it to extend to the Turner Turnpike before curving back west to I-35. This would give the OKC Metro a bypass on its eastern side and lower traffic counts on I-35.
    I would think something more like this would be doable: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=...31306,0.445976

    I'm not sure how manageable an extension all the way to the Turner Turnpike would be, but I do agree we need something on the east side to help with I-35 traffic some. I put two options. One is to upgrade Air Depot to a highway and run it south into the new US 77 loop. The other is to do a Draper Bypass that goes from the new US 77 up to the I-240/40 interchange east of Midwest City. That immediately ties people into two interstates that handle the east side of the Metro area.

    I also think that extending US 277 from Newcastle to North Norman would help with I-35 traffic a bit as all West Metro traffic could be routed that way. The south option, I don't really see a need for another highway - if Highway 9 would be upgraded. I do agree we need more river crossings, but the traffic volume won't justify a new highway there. Unless of course you forget about upgrading Highway 9 and just do a new construction option that runs between Norman and Noble. It could then cross the river and intersect south of Goldsby.

  10. #60

    Default Re: Norman Transportation Plan "Moving Forward"

    Quote Originally Posted by venture79 View Post
    I would think something more like this would be doable: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=...31306,0.445976

    I'm not sure how manageable an extension all the way to the Turner Turnpike would be, but I do agree we need something on the east side to help with I-35 traffic some. I put two options. One is to upgrade Air Depot to a highway and run it south into the new US 77 loop. The other is to do a Draper Bypass that goes from the new US 77 up to the I-240/40 interchange east of Midwest City. That immediately ties people into two interstates that handle the east side of the Metro area.

    I also think that extending US 277 from Newcastle to North Norman would help with I-35 traffic a bit as all West Metro traffic could be routed that way. The south option, I don't really see a need for another highway - if Highway 9 would be upgraded. I do agree we need more river crossings, but the traffic volume won't justify a new highway there. Unless of course you forget about upgrading Highway 9 and just do a new construction option that runs between Norman and Noble. It could then cross the river and intersect south of Goldsby.
    I like your plan a lot. I think we should call it the venture Norman area highway plan!

    The only change I would make would be on the “Draper Bypass Option”. I would move it about 2 miles west where it would intersect with I -24O and then I- 40. IMO it would be a better location to build north to the Turner Turnpike if and when they ever built this stretch of highway.
    For safety reasons alone HY -9 should rebuilt to interstate standards but another river crossing like you suggested would offer some relive to I-35 but also to other congested areas such as Lindsey St.

  11. Default Re: Norman Transportation Plan "Moving Forward"

    Main reason why i have the Draper Bypass Option at the 240/40 interchange is that the land it would use would be mostly open field. Taking it further west is going to run it into more populated areas. That raises the cost of getting it built when buyouts/relocations have to happen. I did an update to add a Turner extension, but there are a lot of houses to dodge. I also don't know if there would be a lot of demand for it, but I guess it would be nice for people that want to bypass Downtown OKC and the traffic along I-35.

  12. Default Re: Norman Transportation Plan "Moving Forward"

    My costly long term idea:

    Make Highway 9 a limited access highway from I-35 to at least Jenkins with an additional full interchange at Hwy 77 and 36th st.

    Make east 36th st. a 4 lane boulevard / limited access hybrid with a full interchange at Hwy 9, Alameda, and circling around to a similar arrangement along Indian Hills Road to I-35 with an interchange at 12th street and an improved intersection at I-35.

    Substitute 36th with 48th is growth outpaces infrastructure.

    All new roads outside of the older areas of Norman that are widened must be boulevards rather than 4 lanes undivided. Most upper middle class suburbs throughout the country take advantage of landscaped boulevards to help with both traffic and beautification.

    Lindsey widened from Berry to 12th St NW.

    Lindsey sidewalked and only a center turn lane added from Berry to Jenkins.

    Jenkins widened and extensively landscaped from Main to Boyd.

    Commuter Rail from Norman to OKC.

    An additional track added to the railroad from Norman to OKC to avoid many of the delays at Lindsey, Main, and upward as commuter rail is added.

    Dramatically improved CART system with a hub less than a block from the commuter rail stop in Downtown.

    Or even better... a partnership with OU to develop a streetcar up Jenkins starting at the research campus and Lloyd Noble at Hwy 9 through campus on Jenkins (might require modifying Jenkins to add a 3rd lane or cutting through the Duck Pond area), going onward to Main Street (the site of the commuter rail stop). This would solve the huge near future problem of connecting the various areas of campus along with connecting to Downtown.

  13. #63

    Default Re: Norman Transportation Plan "Moving Forward"

    If you keep spreading the population all over the countryside by widening every road and adding freeways then expanding CART and adding commuter rail will be impossible. You can't simultaneously expand the geographic footprint and implement mass transit. It is one or the other.

  14. #64

    Default Re: Norman Transportation Plan "Moving Forward"

    Quote Originally Posted by venture79 View Post
    I would think something more like this would be doable: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=...31306,0.445976

    I'm not sure how manageable an extension all the way to the Turner Turnpike would be, but I do agree we need something on the east side to help with I-35 traffic some. I put two options. One is to upgrade Air Depot to a highway and run it south into the new US 77 loop. The other is to do a Draper Bypass that goes from the new US 77 up to the I-240/40 interchange east of Midwest City. That immediately ties people into two interstates that handle the east side of the Metro area.

    I also think that extending US 277 from Newcastle to North Norman would help with I-35 traffic a bit as all West Metro traffic could be routed that way. The south option, I don't really see a need for another highway - if Highway 9 would be upgraded. I do agree we need more river crossings, but the traffic volume won't justify a new highway there. Unless of course you forget about upgrading Highway 9 and just do a new construction option that runs between Norman and Noble. It could then cross the river and intersect south of Goldsby.
    With the planned turnpike extension I do not see them putting another bridge over the river where you liked one going.


  15. Default Re: Norman Transportation Plan "Moving Forward"

    That proposed SW Loop provides zero value to Norman since it runs into Moore. So with that, the options we've discussed here would still be valid as they actually would serve Norman. I can't help but also assume that any bypasses that we've put out there would also take the vast majority of transiting truck traffic off of I-35 in OKC and Moore.

  16. Default Re: Norman Transportation Plan "Moving Forward"

    Sooner Road (12th) is already a great east side option for connecting to 240/40, and it doesn't even have significant slowdowns on game days.

    Quote Originally Posted by venture79 View Post
    I guess it would be nice for people that want to bypass Downtown OKC and the traffic along I-35.
    What traffic on I-35? The mild congestion that occurs for two hours each day around a few busy interchanges?

  17. Default Re: Norman Transportation Plan "Moving Forward"

    Quote Originally Posted by Just the facts View Post
    If you keep spreading the population all over the countryside by widening every road and adding freeways then expanding CART and adding commuter rail will be impossible. You can't simultaneously expand the geographic footprint and implement mass transit. It is one or the other.
    That is a false choice. The goal is not to simultaneously expand the footprint, but that is an unfortunate reality. Norman will continue to expand north, east, and west in the imminent future. There is nothing right now to stop it. However, we have to acknowledge that any long term mass transit option will take quite some time to develop and by that time, the city is going to spread even further. Norman's unique challenge is that while it has a large workforce, it is also a suburb to an even larger city. It is also unique in that it has a reverse commute for a lot of people. With it being a suburb, people are instinctively going to desire the sprawl. I don't necessarily agree with the mindset, but you have to acknowledge its presence.

    Eventually with the presence of mass transit, the sprawl will slow down and infill will occur, but we are left with the chicken or the egg theory all over again.

  18. Default Re: Norman Transportation Plan "Moving Forward"

    Quote Originally Posted by shane453 View Post
    Sooner Road (12th) is already a great east side option for connecting to 240/40, and it doesn't even have significant slowdowns on game days.

    What traffic on I-35? The mild congestion that occurs for two hours each day around a few busy interchanges?
    Sooner is hardly a safe or great option for an eastern loop. If it were upgrades to highway standards I would agree with you, but development has taken over too much along it. There are also starting to be too many traffic lights to really make it a viable alternative. Keep in mind that when discussing long range planning like this, we are talking setting up things for 20-30 years down the road. You can't say a current roadway is a great option when discussing the future. Between Norman and OKC isn't horrible, but once you are in OKC there are way too many curb cuts for a 50 mph roadway.

    Again, long range planning when it comes to your second comment. A 6-lane I-35 is only going to be able to hold so much traffic that another option will become viable. What better way than to divert south bound through traffic onto an eastern bypass.

  19. Default Re: Norman Transportation Plan "Moving Forward"

    Quote Originally Posted by shane453 View Post
    What traffic on I-35? The mild congestion that occurs for two hours each day around a few busy interchanges?
    Something that I have noticed as well. Rush hour traffic is incredibly light on I-35 now that the construction is finished. Most of the Norman traffic is heavy once you get off of the highway, not while you are on it.

  20. #70

    Default Re: Norman Transportation Plan "Moving Forward"

    Quote Originally Posted by soonerliberal View Post
    That is a false choice. The goal is not to simultaneously expand the footprint, but that is an unfortunate reality. Norman will continue to expand north, east, and west in the imminent future. There is nothing right now to stop it. However, we have to acknowledge that any long term mass transit option will take quite some time to develop and by that time, the city is going to spread even further. Norman's unique challenge is that while it has a large workforce, it is also a suburb to an even larger city. It is also unique in that it has a reverse commute for a lot of people. With it being a suburb, people are instinctively going to desire the sprawl. I don't necessarily agree with the mindset, but you have to acknowledge its presence.

    Eventually with the presence of mass transit, the sprawl will slow down and infill will occur, but we are left with the chicken or the egg theory all over again.
    Stop building new roads and see how fast people stop moving further away. It is really pretty simple. Here is Florida we already tried building freeways 40 miles into the country - you know what we got for it? People driving 40 miles to work.

  21. #71

    Default Re: Norman Transportation Plan "Moving Forward"

    We have heard some talk about improved passenger and freight rail in Oklahoma
    In Norman we need to seriously consider a below grade separation of the tracks.
    This would Improve safety and reduce noise. These tracks would need to be double tracked.
    If high speed rail is ever built from Tulsa to OKC we should try to have it extended to Norman.

    Henceforth when and where necessary any project should take in to consideration its compatibility with the development of commuter rail and high speed rail.

  22. #72

    Default Re: Norman Transportation Plan "Moving Forward"

    I -35 is a National High Priority Corridor.
    We should raise our rural I 35 speed limits if they do all this.
    I found this on Page 136

    From the state of Oklahoma

    http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/p-r-d...2035/index.htm



    I-35 Corridor the I-35 Trade Corridor Study completed in 1999 made the following recommendations for I-35 in Oklahoma:
     From the Kansas/Oklahoma Border to northern transition of Oklahoma City: six lanes
     from the northern transition of Oklahoma City to the Oklahoma City core: eight lanes
     For the Oklahoma City Core: eight lanes with additional construction of a relief route
     From the Oklahoma City Core to southern transition of Oklahoma City: six lanes with additional construction of a relief route
     From the southern transition of Oklahoma City to the Oklahoma/Texas border: eight lanes
     Construction costs were estimated at $880 million for Oklahoma

  23. #73

    Default Re: Norman Transportation Plan "Moving Forward"

    Quote Originally Posted by ou48A View Post
    I -35 is a National High Priority Corridor.
    We should raise our rural I 35 speed limits if they do all this.
    I found this on Page 136

    From the state of Oklahoma

    http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/p-r-d...2035/index.htm



    I-35 Corridor the I-35 Trade Corridor Study completed in 1999 made the following recommendations for I-35 in Oklahoma:
     From the Kansas/Oklahoma Border to northern transition of Oklahoma City: six lanes
     from the northern transition of Oklahoma City to the Oklahoma City core: eight lanes
     For the Oklahoma City Core: eight lanes with additional construction of a relief route
     From the Oklahoma City Core to southern transition of Oklahoma City: six lanes with additional construction of a relief route
     From the southern transition of Oklahoma City to the Oklahoma/Texas border: eight lanes
     Construction costs were estimated at $880 million for Oklahoma
    8 lanes to the texas border seems an unusually high for that type of segment.

  24. #74

    Default Re: Norman Transportation Plan "Moving Forward"

    Construction estimate of $880 million? When was this estimate done - 1960?

    4 miles of the crosstown cost that much. You couldn't lay a 4 lane sidewalk across Oklahoma for $880 million.

    The main problem with ODOT is that they are concerned with moving cars, not people.

  25. #75

    Default Re: Norman Transportation Plan "Moving Forward"

    Echoing Pioneer, I'd like to thank everyone for the discussion in this thread. City staff have indeed been reading your comments, and they have led to some meaningful discussion.

    The statistically-valid survey has been mailed out. If you are one of the randomly-selected participants, you may have already received it. Please encourage your friends and neighbors to complete and return the survey if they have one in their possession. Should the City choose to commence with the creation of a long-range transportation plan, it is imperative to gather feedback from the community to know what types of projects they would support.

    For those of you who do not receive a survey, please take the survey on the City's website (link below). The results of the online survey will not be statistically valid, but important to the City nonetheless. Please encourage friends, family, coworkers, etc. to take the survey as well.

    http://www.ci.norman.ok.us/content/moving-forward

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