Occupy OKC in Kerr Park...

[OSUMom]

Problem is we need a highly educated workforce to remain competitive in the global market...It's just crap that a large portion of those wanting a higher education are thrown out in workforce land already 40-50k in debt...Not an ideal way to start off when you are immediately struggling

There are alternatives. You can go to the army first. You can work your way through school, taking a couple of classes a semester. Live at home and go to a local school. Sure that will take longer but in the end you are in a much better position. But these kids wanted to "do college" as much as they wanted the degree. They wanted to be full time students, go to the football games, be a college kid with no resposibilities other then school.

[Easy180]

So we don't have educated social workers or should they be limited to kids whose parents can pay their tuition?

[OSUMom]

You don't have to drive up 100,000 debt to get a degree that enables you to be a social worker.

[Easy180]

There are alternatives. You can go to the army first.

So the poor can go to Afghanistan in harms way to get a college degree...Definitely an enticing alternative

[BBatesokc]

Problem is we need a highly educated workforce to remain competitive in the global market...It's just crap that a large portion of those wanting a higher education are thrown out in workforce land already 40-50k in debt...Not an ideal way to start off when you are immediately struggling

I don't buy this, for the most part. You don't have to go into huge debt and mommy and daddy don't have to pay for it for you to get a college degree. As a matter of fact, at least in Oklahoma, the poorer mommy and daddy are, the better their kids chances of going to college completely free.

I got my degree with zero debt when I got out and I know many others who did the same thing. You simply have to be willing to go to an affordable school (depending on what you can afford), work instead of sitting on your ass and live modestly.

Our son graduated from Del City and a large portion of his classmates qualified for FREE college (minus books and fees) under the OHLAP. Problem is, only a tiny percentage of the kids signed up.

The real problem, IMO, is that kids think college is a party and they want to live in the dorms, or their own apartment or fraternity/sorority, not work and let mommy and daddy pay for it or just borrow the money and worry about it later.

[Midtowner]

The average student leaves college (I didn't say graduates) with $10K in debt. The average public university is $13K per semester and the average private university is $28K. At those prices, if you want a degree, any degree, you're going into big debt. Not all degrees are going to pay well, e.g., teaching. Those people are also graduating with big student loans. I graduated undergrad debt free, and ended up racking up almost $100K in law school loans at ~$1K per credit hour plus fees. It's fairly upsetting to know that the quality of the law school experience really hasn't changed much in 30 years, but 30 years ago, the cost of a legal education was in the $50-$75 range. Tuition has outpaced inflation at all institutions and the quality hasn't gotten better. This has only happened because we have a student loan system which schools are milking for as much money as they can get. To heck with the consequences for the students who have to pay it back. The answer is not just to scoff at the young who unlike you, actually have to pay a hell of a lot more for an education. The answer is to realize that the status quo isn't working and something needs to be changed. I'm not asking anyone to pay off my debt. I'll manage it just fine. I would, however, like to have the government protect the students taking out these loans more than the banks and universities on the profit side of the equation.

Some of these programs are just inexplicably expensive. For example, want a teaching degree from Sarah Lawrence College? That'll be $55K per year.

[BBatesokc]

I'd say most students are not looking to be doctors or lawyers. And I have little sympathy for those that choose expensive schools or degree programs and complain about debt they got themselves into. You don't have to go to a $55K+ a year school to get a good job and you don't have to be up to your eyeballs in debt to be successful. I also don't have a problem with people who choose to go that route, they just need to make wise financial decisions.

I would also certainly say that being a lawyer is no certainty of wealth or even making a good living. I work primarily for lawyers, and while a few are millionaires, most I work around are perpetually broke and the worst at paying their bills. This is not a lawyer jab or hijack, just using a real world example. My dad is a retired lawyer and my best friend is a high profile lawyer in OKC and I have great respect for both of them.

I went back to college in the early 2000's and didn't acquire any debt. My mom graduated OCU in probably the late 90's debt free.

[Easy180]

So basically your college was paid for and you can't understand why everyone else can't do the same...ok

[BDK]

As a current law student I can tell you that the source of most of the student frustration is that the much of the high tuition cost is diverted to main campus. It is simply unfair to charge so much for law school when there is little cost for equipment and supplies as compared to the sciences. This is not a "woe is me" commentary, as I knew the cost going into school. I am just stating the student perception.

Personally, I was fortunate enough to receive a fair bit of scholarship funds; however, I will still graduate with a decent bit of debt. If I were in some of my classmates' shoes, I would be considering working for the government for a decade for the loan forgiveness. An out of state student without the assistance of scholarship is looking at six figures of debt at a public university. The in-staters not on scholarship are likely looking at close to six figures, too. That'd make anyone frustrated.

[bornhere]

I went through college very cheaply, going local. But I have relatives who seek certain jobs on the east coast where an Ivy League or MIT degree is pretty much the bare minimum to get hired. A local degree was fine for what I wanted to do with my life and career. But I recognize that people who want to work for Google, for example, probably need the benefit of a higher-end education.

[BBatesokc]

So basically your college was paid for and you can't understand why everyone else can't do the same...ok

I didn't say that. I'd think your education would have taught you some comprehension. I said I was fine with people who take on debt for the education they personally desire. But I don't think they have a right to then later complain about it - as in not so far or loudly as to want the debt they chose to take on forgiven.

I also disagreed with they idea that one has to take on debt to get a degree.

[BDK]

True, but educational loans aren't even dischargeable in bankruptcy. I feel like they should have the same status as other debts as far a bankruptcy is concerned. If we're going to make the "pay for your mistakes" argument, it should be equally applied to all debts.

Not saying that that was your point, Brian. Just giving my unsolicited opinion.

[BBatesokc]

True, but educational loans aren't even dischargeable in bankruptcy. I feel like they should have the same status as other debts as far a bankruptcy is concerned. If we're going to make the "pay for your mistakes" argument, it should be equally applied to all debts.

Not saying that that was your point, Brian. Just giving my unsolicited opinion.

If they were, you'd have a rush of students who file for bankruptcy the week after graduating - just because they can. Thankfully, bankruptcy is not the golden ticket for deadbeats it used to be. Not being dischargeable though is just life and the loaners don't hide that fact.

At least three of my son's friends went out and got student loans and then used the money to buy cars and furnish apartment and even go on vacations. I wonder how stupid they are going to feel when it comes time to pay it all back.

[Midtowner]

If they were, you'd have a rush of students who file for bankruptcy the week after graduating - just because they can.

Student loans haven't always not been dischargeable. That never was a problem.

[BBatesokc]

Student loans haven't always not been dischargeable. That never was a problem.

You're neglecting to disclose that to be discharged the student load had to be in pay status for at least 7 years. If not for that, I'd imagine it would be an issue. Also, student loans can be discharged if the loan creates an undue hardship.

[BDK]

If they were, you'd have a rush of students who file for bankruptcy the week after graduating - just because they can. Thankfully, bankruptcy is not the golden ticket for deadbeats it used to be. Not being dischargeable though is just life and the loaners don't hide that fact.

I understand your point, but how is this any different than someone who racks up a lot of credit card debt? Certainly large purchases can be repossessed if the jurisdiction allows, but not the credit spent on living and entertainment. (If the paucity of my knowledge in this area is showing, please feel free to correct. I have yet to have taken bankruptcy coursework, though I intend to, and my only experience in the area is anecdotal from acquaintances.)

Nonetheless, to me, universities are just capitalizing on the unduly elevated status we have given a bachelor's degree in this country, especially at the expense of belittling the trades.

[BBatesokc]

I understand your point, but how is this any different than someone who racks up a lot of credit card debt? Certainly large purchases can be repossessed if the jurisdiction allows, but not the credit spent on living and entertainment.

To me, universities are just capitalizing on the unduly elevated status we have given a bachelor's degree in this country, especially at the expense of belittling the trades.

Oh, I see where you are coming from. I agree a college education is way too expensive. From my perspective, the degree is often overrated for most professions. It helps you meet a company's minimum requirements but so much more is required to actually get the job and be successful. I know people with masters degrees that - because they have the social skills and personality of a door knob - they can't get well paying jobs in their field.

Back to your question. I don't see it as being that different from racking up credit card debt and I have little sympathy for either instance. I just don't think people who rack up student loan debt have much of an argument that it should somehow be dischargeable when they signed up for the debt to begin with. I also don't think people should be able to file bankruptcy and discharge personal debt either.

[PennyQuilts]

Problem is we need a highly educated workforce to remain competitive in the global market...It's just crap that a large portion of those wanting a higher education are thrown out in workforce land already 40-50k in debt...Not an ideal way to start off when you are immediately struggling

Let them be highly educated in the hard sciences and health care.

[PennyQuilts]

So we don't have educated social workers or should they be limited to kids whose parents can pay their tuition?

A social worker with $100,000 in student loan debt is ridiculous. Why should we be a part of setting up young kids for financial suicide?

[PennyQuilts]

So the poor can go to Afghanistan in harms way to get a college degree...Definitely an enticing alternative

You think everything should be free and easy, Easy. The thing is, that is a fantasy. These kids who have indebted themselves are paying the price for that attitude.

[PennyQuilts]

Tuition has outpaced inflation at all institutions and the quality hasn't gotten better. This has only happened because we have a student loan system which schools are milking for as much money as they can get. To heck with the consequences for the students who have to pay it back.

Exactly.

[PennyQuilts]

So basically your college was paid for and you can't understand why everyone else can't do the same...ok

You are wed to the entitlement mindset that insists that no matter what, people should get free stuff. I had very little debt because I was a scholarship kid who worked and lived in poverty while I was in school. There is NO WAY I would run up the kind of debt kids do, today. The increase in the cost of tuition is not the point - it would have been stupid twenty years ago and insane, today. Although I went to private schools, no way, no how would I have done that if I didn't have good scholarships. IMO, burdening yourself with student debt is totally nuts. There are plenty of ways to make a decent living that doesn't involve running up that kind of debt and just hoping you will get a good job.

[PennyQuilts]

As a current law student I can tell you that the source of most of the student frustration is that the much of the high tuition cost is diverted to main campus. It is simply unfair to charge so much for law school when there is little cost for equipment and supplies as compared to the sciences. This is not a "woe is me" commentary, as I knew the cost going into school. I am just stating the student perception.

I suspect that is where the current students are coming from but once they get out on the real world, they will realize that was the least of the problem.

[PennyQuilts]

I went through college very cheaply, going local. But I have relatives who seek certain jobs on the east coast where an Ivy League or MIT degree is pretty much the bare minimum to get hired. A local degree was fine for what I wanted to do with my life and career. But I recognize that people who want to work for Google, for example, probably need the benefit of a higher-end education.

I had three kids go to incredibly expensive east coast private law schools so I know a little something about this subject. We helped them get out of undergrad, debt free, but they went on their own dimes back east and ended up with a range of debt based on what they had in savings and scholarships. You can do it smart and you can do it stupid, seems to me. A kid wanting to go work for Google who is willing to indebt themselves for close to $150,000.00 for the "possibility" of working for Google is idiotic, seems to me. That is someone gambling with their future on the basis of a vague notion of, what? There are plenty of ways to make a good life for yourself and starting out in debt that means you have to take a good paying job even if you hate it is asking for disaster.

[PennyQuilts]

True, but educational loans aren't even dischargeable in bankruptcy. I feel like they should have the same status as other debts as far a bankruptcy is concerned. If we're going to make the "pay for your mistakes" argument, it should be equally applied to all debts.

Not saying that that was your point, Brian. Just giving my unsolicited opinion.

It is a federal program and those are the rules. There is nothing that keeps someone from getting a loan from a private bank if they want it treated like any other debt. At this point, with kids making noises that they should receive the benefit and not pay it back, as a tax payer, I worry. I worry that it will further cripple our economy and I worry about the future of the program for kids who might benefit from the program in the future. The fact that people make stupid financial decisions - and this is what it amounts to - is liable to end up being the next housing bubble.