Two bits of information about Best Buy and Crossroads Mall.

[Spartan]

Don't know if I agree with all that. Crossroads was a very successful regional hallmark over its first 10-15 or so years of existence, which pushes up to about 1987. Developers could not have predicted the blight emerging *from the north and west* combined with the industrial presence that would make the area decreasingly attractive. As for it being "old sprawl," that logic would have precluded the redevelopment of Penn Square - heck, it was an open-air, 1960's throwback that had at best a modest future until someone came in with the audacious plan of expanding it and enclosing it. The mistake Crossroads developers did make, however, was misjudging growth to the SE rather than the S and SW, as I noted in another post.

I don't think you can compare Crossroads in any way to Penn Square, which is a thriving operation today in spite of its building form. Indoor malls across the nation are dying. It's not just what I say, but it's also the proven trend, so much so that Dillard and JCP and most other anchors have said they won't be adding any more of those types of locations. Dillard is even trying to get out of the indoor malls as fast as they possibly can. Penn Square thrives today because it is surrounded on all sides by an upscale customer base and their location is seen as the "epicenter" of the northside.

Crossroads was very successful for its first 15 years of existence, absolutely no denying that. However what went wrong isn't just unique to Crossroads, but rather symptomatic of indoor malls all over the nation. I think today you can see Quail Springs beginning to whither away, being held up by its location on a major retail corridor where most everything else is new or redeveloped. Quail Springs doesn't have the upscale profile of Penn Square, so it's not unique. It won't have anything that allows it to compete with newer, better options that will inevitably emerge along its own corridor. In fact, the Quail Springs Village once-proposed between the mall and NW 150th might have been just that.

I'm also confused by your stressed point that the dilapidation, in relation to Crossroads Mall, is to the north and west. That's the southside. That was the original demographic that anchored Crossroads to begin with. The mall was built, almost adjoined at the hip (rather than in the heart, the head, etc) to compare geography and anatomy. I understand that you're trying to allude to a larger argument that the southside actually did not just lose out to the northside, but it's a hard argument to support. Virtually every possible elite service is on the northside. There is nothing that is south, but not north, not even in terms of the Hispanic community. Stretching further south, or redefining the southside continuously and just moving the boundaries further and further south, is simply not a logical, practical, nor honest solution. You also mention the Tri "Cities" and I agree there has been some home building in that direction, but come on--one Walmart and a Mexican restaurant do not qualify a legitimate building trend. Nor does it predict one.

[oneforone]

INTEGRIS recently expanded/renovated the surgery department at Southwest Medical Center. They have also given the first floor a face lift and renovations were just completed on the 9th floor of the hospital. They are currently in the process of completing a new window installation and repainting the hospital tower. At one time they were considering by the apartment complex to the north of the hospital. Unfortunately the owner wanted an outrageous prices for the property.

At this time I think one or two things will likely happen if Sears closes. INTEGRIS or Walmart would likely buy the property. If INTEGRIS were to buy it the lot would like be as overflow/employee parking. This would allow the hospital to expand out closer to Western. The new space would likely be used as conference center space and for out patient procedures. The only thing I have ever heard of expansion wise is growing/remodeling ER and adding Intensive Care Units. The neuroscience and stroke units may also be expanded. The remaining inpatient side is about as big as it's going to get. Facelifts are about the only things on the board.

[kbsooner]

At this time I think one or two things will likely happen if Sears closes. INTEGRIS or Walmart would likely buy the property.

Why would Walmart have any interest in this property?

[SoonerDave]

I don't think you can compare Crossroads in any way to Penn Square, which is a thriving operation today in spite of its building form. Indoor malls across the nation are dying. It's not just what I say, but it's also the proven trend, so much so that Dillard and JCP and most other anchors have said they won't be adding any more of those types of locations. Dillard is even trying to get out of the indoor malls as fast as they possibly can. Penn Square thrives today because it is surrounded on all sides by an upscale customer base and their location is seen as the "epicenter" of the northside.

Crossroads was very successful for its first 15 years of existence, absolutely no denying that. However what went wrong isn't just unique to Crossroads, but rather symptomatic of indoor malls all over the nation. I think today you can see Quail Springs beginning to whither away, being held up by its location on a major retail corridor where most everything else is new or redeveloped. Quail Springs doesn't have the upscale profile of Penn Square, so it's not unique. It won't have anything that allows it to compete with newer, better options that will inevitably emerge along its own corridor. In fact, the Quail Springs Village once-proposed between the mall and NW 150th might have been just that.

I'm also confused by your stressed point that the dilapidation, in relation to Crossroads Mall, is to the north and west. That's the southside. That was the original demographic that anchored Crossroads to begin with. The mall was built, almost adjoined at the hip (rather than in the heart, the head, etc) to compare geography and anatomy. I understand that you're trying to allude to a larger argument that the southside actually did not just lose out to the northside, but it's a hard argument to support. Virtually every possible elite service is on the northside. There is nothing that is south, but not north, not even in terms of the Hispanic community. Stretching further south, or redefining the southside continuously and just moving the boundaries further and further south, is simply not a logical, practical, nor honest solution. You also mention the Tri "Cities" and I agree there has been some home building in that direction, but come on--one Walmart and a Mexican restaurant do not qualify a legitimate building trend. Nor does it predict one.

Spartan, while I typically find myself on the opposite end of the opinion spectrum with you, I will offer that you typically lay out a sound basis for your opinion, but this time its simply shortsighted or, at a minimum, disingenuous.

Let me take the two most telling points individually

I'm also confused by your stressed point that the dilapidation, in relation to Crossroads Mall, is to the north and west. That's the southside. That was the original demographic that anchored Crossroads to begin with. The mall was built, almost adjoined at the hip (rather than in the heart, the head, etc) to compare geography and anatomy.

No, it isn't, Spartan, and if you'd join the rest of us in the year 2012, you'd realize how silly it sounds to pretend S. OKC is so tightly constrained. Spartan, you're too smart to try and argue this without people breaking out in laughter. If you truly believe that the business case for Crossroads was anchored north and west of its location, you're simply not dealing with reality. In fact, the notion contradicts your prior assertions that the developers misjudged OKC's growth to the SE - obviously Crossroads location was chosen for its proximity to where growth was going to occur. As you accurately pointed out, the growth wasn't that direction - it was to the south and west. But now you're saying they intended to remain viable solely due to their ties north and west? To Valley Brook and S. Shields? Seriously?

I realize this has been a bone of contention for you for some time, but the argument you make continues to pretend that south Oklahoma City doesn't really exist sound of about SW 59th or perhaps SW 74th. The reality is that a very vibrant, economically strong South OKC extends well past this boundary. Like it or not, those areas most certainly are part of the current South OKC. The southside most certainly redefines itself as the city grows, whether you like it or not. How could it be anything less than an honest assessment of the region than to recognize the growth south and southwest? The highest-income demographic in the city is centered around SW 104th and Penn, near Chatenay Square, Rivendell, Lakeridge Run, and Greenbriar, even as far east as the old Ranchwood Manor area.

We can put blinders on and pretend OKC is still constrained by a perimeter defined by 1960's population standards, but it just isn't reality. The folks in Moore and Norman are delighted to hear that some people believe S. OKC stops at SW 74th, because they're delighted to collect sales taxes from those presumably nonexistent folks living in South OKC who are heading to their cities to spend their monies on the retail they've built and are building.

(Re Tricities) I agree there has been some home building in that direction, but come on--one Walmart and a Mexican restaurant do not qualify a legitimate building trend

C'mon, Spartan, you can't be that myopic (or willingly naive?) about the development in the corridor between SW OKC and TriCities. Just as a matter of information, the Airport Trust is opening hotel and retail development along the SE region of their property on the west side of I-44 between (roughly) SW 89th and proceeding south to SW 134th. Saints just opened its new emergency hospital on the east side of I-44 near 134th. I've also been told that OKC leaders were delighted at the prospect of even more development along that corridor to keep south OKC residents from going to TriCity and spending their sales tax dollars there rather than in OKC. So even if you don't believe that's a vital corridor, a great many other people do - including those who believe there is money to be made.

I understand that you're trying to allude to a larger argument that the southside actually did not just lose out to the northside, but it's a hard argument to support. Virtually every possible elite service is on the northside.

Now, you're trying to manufacture an argument I did not make and use it to rationalize a point you want to make - I never said anything of the kind regarding any part of town "losing" to the northside. That smells conspicuously like the tired old northside elitism once prevalent among folks who believed nothing south of Reno should even be acknowledged to exist, and that's no way to plan a city, and I'd sure like to think you're not one of those people possessed of this unfortunate form of urban bigotry.

[bombermwc]

All of this ignores the change of hands of the mall from one bad management group to the next as well. Many different companies owned the place only to take the profits from them to use in other buildings. Simon was known to do that without hiding it. When Heritage was owned by the various companies, the folks that ran day-to-day operations on-site mentioned that was happening at Heritage, so they knew their job would be short-lived there.

Crossroads saw a complete lack of re-investment in the place. Had that happened, there still could have been some life in the place. New stuff was being built right next to it (because it still had drawing power) until about 10 years ago. The downfall was when Montgomery Ward went bankrupt. The timing lined up with the trend away from the indoor mall. Those that saw the writing on the wall before and had reinvested, were able to survive...ie Penn (by way of stealing from the others).

Demographics don't really have a ton to do with it. Look at Heritage Park. The EOC continues to grow with an ever increasing income....and just like the south side, it's growing out, thus expanding the "limit". But when the place is met with hurdle after hurdle that it's not allowed to overcome, then it's doomed.