Convention Center

[David]

What is the elevation/water table difference at the North Bricktown site compared to the now defunct location? Could we go below ground a level or two in order to leave room for the Tulsa rail connection and double up a bit more on the available acreage? I'm thinking of the Moscone Center in SF at the moment, ignoring the expansion building it has lots of underground space compared to some of the convention centers I have been to.

[betts]

I doubt it, given how close it is to the BNSF tracks. It might require years to placate them, if it ever happened. Also, think about how ugly the North Bricktown vistas would be. You're looking at the backside of everything. And imagine traffic back there. To me it's the least attractive option.

[Pete]

Yeah, there were pretty good reasons they eliminated North BT pretty early on.

Still, besides the C2S South site, we need another option; at least as a Plan B.

[Anonymous.]

I still think the UHaul site is a doable option.

The hotel fronting EKG would keep the area from being parking garage dominant, then you can do a garage against the boulevard that will not even be at grade with the street, so you don't sacrifice boulevard frontage with a garage. I am not sure if the access street was going to still be there from the Boulevard to 'Compress St.', but if not you could eliminate that altogether.

Basically like this:

[Jared]

Betts, I am not sure what you mean by the North Bricktown vistas only seeing the backside of everything.

Like I said earlier and Pete just mentioned, we need a Plan B. In my opinion, this is one of two viable options. Even if it's least attractive, that still makes it number two. (Barring any new location.)

[PhiAlpha]

Here is that Skirvin proposal:

So there is no way that this could be revisited?

[Plutonic Panda]

Wow. So now we are going to tear down that building on the uHual site? That looks like a nice building underneath that metal.

[bradh]

yeah really, because that looks like a great plan

[Pete]

When people are looking at various site possibilities, keep in mind that the main exhibit hall has to be at 330,000 square feet all together and all on one level.

That is a huge footprint and it has to be rectangular. AND you have to allow for docks, pre-function rooms on the same level.

When I overlay that size through Google Earth, I can't make any sites work but C2S South; that is unless we want to spend $100 million or more to acquire existing properties and we already know that is not going to happen.

[bradh]

I like the person who did the comparisons to Houston's GRB to this. That area of downtown Houston was pretty desolate when the GRB was built. Granted, there have been some things built around there that certainly helped development that we won't have here in OKC (Minute Maid Park, Toyota Center, BBVA Compass Stadium), but it's a testament to what absolutely could happen in OKC. There was another thread recently where a poster was talking about properties along Hubcap Alley, that could benefit from this (would benefit anyway with the park). With all due respect to Urbanized's background and knowledge, I think I can get behind the C2S South (east, whatever we are calling it) plan.

[bradh]

Also, maybe someone more privy to the street car developments can help me here, but the C2S South site would be an open door to easy linkage to Capitol Hill right? Not sure how far down the road that is, just a thought.

[Pete]

Also, maybe someone more privy to the street car developments can help me here, but the C2S South site would be an open door to easy linkage to Capitol Hill right? Not sure how far down the road that is, just a thought.

Definitely.

Right now, they show the next phase running down Walker but if the cc goes to the site by Central Park, then it would probably make sense for the route to go straight down Robinson all the way to Capitol Hill.

[betts]

Depending on the new CC location, there will likely need to be an adjustment or two to the route, but nothing major. At least we weren't under construction when this news came out. I am speaking off the top of my head, however, recognizing the consultants and engineers are the ultimate authority. But you are right- Capitol Hill is a straight shot down Shields.

[Hutch]

Here is that Skirvin proposal:

The biggest problem for the North Bricktown site is that the Intermodal Hub Study and Master Plan for Santa Fe Station requires a right-of-way envelope and elevated ramp across the site in order to provide effective connectivity into and out of Santa Fe Station for future Commuter Rail, Intercity Rail and/or High-Speed Rail services to the Adventure District, Midwest City, Tulsa and other destinations to the east. The earlier convention center proposal for this site would have eliminated that connection. Currently, the City is trying to find a way to develop a parking garage on the site that would also preserve the necessary rail connectivity. So far, they have not come up with a workable solution. Siting the convention center there would necessitate the same design considerations. It's likely a fatal flaw, unless you're willing to disregard the connectivity requirements for Santa Fe Station.

Here's the initial operating design for Santa Fe (two platforms utilizing the existing terminal area):



Here's the future expansion design for Santa Fe (three platforms and an expanded terminal area):

[Just the facts]

If the Uhaul site is considered then they might as well stop construction on the east portion of the boulevard now because it will connect to nothing. Oklahoma Ave was to be the only connecting street into Bricktown from the boulevard. Lose that intersection and the next is all the way to Robinson, which already has an exit from I-40.

[Bellaboo]

If the Uhaul site is considered then they might as well stop construction on the east portion of the boulevard now because it will connect to nothing. Oklahoma Ave was to be the only connecting street into Bricktown from the boulevard. Lose that intersection and the next is all the way to Robinson, which already has an exit from I-40.

What about Shields ?

[hoya]

The biggest problem for the North Bricktown site is that the Intermodal Hub Study and Master Plan for Santa Fe Station requires a right-of-way envelope and elevated ramp across the site in order to provide effective connectivity into and out of Santa Fe Station for future Commuter Rail, Intercity Rail and/or High-Speed Rail services to the Adventure District, Midwest City, Tulsa and other destinations to the east. The earlier convention center proposal for this site would have eliminated that connection. Currently, the City is trying to find a way to develop a parking garage on the site that would also preserve the necessary rail connectivity. So far, they have not come up with a workable solution. Siting the convention center there would necessitate the same design considerations. It's likely a fatal flaw, unless you're willing to disregard the connectivity requirements for Santa Fe Station.

Here's the initial operating design for Santa Fe (two platforms utilizing the existing terminal area):



Here's the future expansion design for Santa Fe (three platforms and an expanded terminal area):

I still wonder if we could run the rail line through the convention center. I really don't see why we couldn't. Put parking on the bottom two floors of the building. Leave an empty path in the design for the future expanded rail line. Put the contiguous exhibit space on the third floor, above the rail.

That location has the advantage that most of the walls are going to be shielded from the street. You don't have to worry about making a lot of the exterior look "pretty". The west portion will be blocked by the elevated N/S rail lines. The east portion can have the loading docks and all the ugly stuff, and you run it right up to the Mickey Mantle bridge. With both of those sides you just need to worry about whatever sticks out on top being presentable. On the north facing, half of the space will be blocked from the street by Aloft. You can put one of the street entrances there between Aloft and that renovated house thing. You can keep the old wooden train platform there as a piece of history. The second piece that faces the street would be the one on Main between the train tracks and Oklahoma Ave.

There should be significant cost savings because you've got already-existing barriers that can shield the ugly parts of the center from people walking by on the street.

[hoya]

Personally, I'm against the Core 2 Shore site because I think the park is more valuable to the city, overall, than the convention center. That land will be one of the most prime spaces in the city. If you want housing, offices, and retail all along Robinson, if you want to eventually redevelop the Cotton Mill and connect it with the rest of the city, then you don't want to plop a convention center right there and form a superblock that will be there for the next 50 years.

[Spartan]

Just as an aside, I'm noticing some trends rising to the forefront. Certain people are literally tunnel-visioned into the mindset of "get the CC as close to the center of downtown AS POSSIBLE." Most of those ideas seem to be horrible ideas.

We are a community that is showing a fear of thinking outside of the box, especially on the convention center issue. The frustrating thing is it's a project nobody wants to begin with, but we gotta have, so some outside the box thinking could potentially turn this from a mediocre project comin' to a block near you, into a GREAT project. But we aren't there yet and show no signs (or interest) of getting there.

The parking garage on the boulevard could easily contain retail on that side.

But as previously noted, the boulevard will be below grade at that point anyway.

And please, tone down the rhetoric.

The problem is that because ODOT got an element of design wrong on that project, doesn't make it okay to just add another layer of bad design surrounding that. One layer of bad design is very easy to peel off and correct, but multiple layers - it's doomed for eternity.

I was joking with "you hate the park" by the way! Frankly though, my honest reaction is that I can't help but be blown away that you'd willingly cover half of the park's eastern side with "CC expansion zone." There should be no CC expansion, to be honest.

We voted for no less than $250 million, and no more than $280 million, of convention center that nobody wants to begin with. I can't say that enough. There's the debate between 250 and 280, but beyond that, sorry CC that's all you get. I'd go further to say that's all it should get until another 50 years.

[Urban Pioneer]

Just a note. While the blvd will be at a lower elevation that what it is currently. It doesn't really need to be "below grade". As in relates to this site. You could absolute build to the level of the new road. As that is how the sidewalks will be.

Clear the peake can't do that. But new construction would not have an issue with it

Yes. I 'd guess that the elevation change will start a 150' back from the intersection. Also important to note, the sidewalks planned are 9' - 12'+ wide going under the new railroad overpass.

[Urban Pioneer]

Depending on the new CC location, there will likely need to be an adjustment or two to the route, but nothing major.

If the C2S south site is chosen, there will be some major changes that need to be made to this part of the streetcar route. I think some of them will actually be awesome.

[Spartan]

Yeah, there were pretty good reasons they eliminated North BT pretty early on.

Still, besides the C2S South site, we need another option; at least as a Plan B.

C2S south has the largest problems, honestly. Why not accept other sites that also have problems? That is if you have to get this thing as close to the BNSF tracks as possible.

[hoya]

Just as an aside, I'm noticing some trends rising to the forefront. Certain people are literally tunnel-visioned into the mindset of "get the CC as close to the center of downtown AS POSSIBLE." Most of those ideas seem to be horrible ideas.

We are a community that is showing a fear of thinking outside of the box, especially on the convention center issue. The frustrating thing is it's a project nobody wants to begin with, but we gotta have, so some outside the box thinking could potentially turn this from a mediocre project comin' to a block near you, into a GREAT project. But we aren't there yet and show no signs (or interest) of getting there.

Urbanized is going to have an aneurism.

I took a look around with Google Maps. There's a pretty large chunk of vacant land that's kinda near downtown. There's loads of room for the convention center. You don't connect to Bricktown at all. But it's big and it's probably cheap.



This is over by the Farmer's Market area. If you wanted a very large building with a lot of space, this could be a spot. You'd want to encourage as much development in this area as possible. I know things are really trashy in that area right now, but in 15 or 20 years this could be a great place. Development is just starting to pick up there, with stuff like Power House.

[Spartan]

I think that's a phenomenal idea, I'm just not sure that it should be so far from Bricktown. I really do want to do this project right, but it has to be balanced with what is best for the non convention-going public, as well. The rest of us have to (or want to) live here, ferchrissakes! :P

I'm not for one site over another specifically, although I do like the idea of one of many possible locations along I-235. You gotta look at the big picture and realize that if we don't kill downtown first, it will expand eastward to Lincoln and points beyond. Bricktown's eastern half will be pretty central, too.

People are ignoring the costs of these CC sites because they don't think we have options. They can't expand their view to see what downtown could be in the future. They don't realize that these tough choices aren't really necessary.

[OKCRT]

I would integrate the CC with the new park. Take the park site and the C2S site and put them together and make the best of it. It can be done. And the new street car would be integrated also. Walk out of the CC, jump on the streetcar and head to BT or wherever.