Convention Center

[BDP]

I'm pretty sure it will be at least a decade after the completion of the convention center before the MAPS 3 park is a more attractive place to hang out in at night than MBG. I don't think some realize how long it will be before anyone is hanging out in the C2S park at all, let alone when it will have any added amenities that attract tourists.

[dankrutka]

Even in NYC every neighborhood isn't fully active 24 hrs a day. It is okay to have predominantly business areas. Or does new urbanism dogma dictate sameness in all areas?

But not when you just renovated an exceptional city park in the middle of the area. Otherwise, the park should have gone somewhere else...

[Rover]

I guess because we are so small we think of neighborhoods in terms of a few feet, not a few blocks. If MG is a draw, then all the new tenants of deep deuce and mid town, not to mention all the new hotel quests, should walk or ride a couple of blocks to go use it. It shouldn't rely strictly on what is across the street. This should be especially true when the mass trans is in place. Downtown needs to be a neighborhood and we should look at what is happening throughout the downtown and not just block by block.

[betts]

I walk over to the Myriad Gardens from Deep Deuce with my dog fairly frequently. We walk from there to Joey's Pizza for dinner when the weather is agreeable.

[Rover]

I walk over to the Myriad Gardens from Deep Deuce with my dog fairly frequently. We walk from there to Joey's Pizza for dinner when the weather is agreeable.

Exactly!
This is why I think people get too bent out of shape over EXACTLY what goes where. We need to develop an urban AREA, not an urban block.

[betts]

I'm pretty sure it will be at least a decade after the completion of the convention center before the MAPS 3 park is a more attractive place to hang out in at night than MBG. I don't think some realize how long it will be before anyone is hanging out in the C2S park at all, let alone when it will have any added amenities that attract tourists.

Sometimes the only amenities you need for a park that attracts tourists is trees and a sidewalk. We're not that far off from trees and a sidewalk/trail. Programming is overrated, IMO.

[soonerguru]

Even in NYC every neighborhood isn't fully active 24 hrs a day. It is okay to have predominantly business areas. Or does new urbanism dogma dictate sameness in all areas?

You are so obtuse.

[ljbab728]

You are so obtuse.

sg, again your personal attacks are not apprciated. If you have a point to make you can do it without that.

[Spartan]

Rover... No, this is an important project. It's on the blvd, on he park, across from the Peake... Come on now.

But I agree with you that I want blocks to be diverse. there are a lot of blocks that aren't as vital as this site.

[Rover]

Rover... No, this is an important project. It's on the blvd, on he park, across from the Peake... Come on now.

But I agree with you that I want blocks to be diverse. there are a lot of blocks that aren't as vital as this site.

I absolutely agree about the relative importance of getting this block right. But on the subject of diversity and mixed use I think the subject gets too myopic sometimes.

Even with the cc on this block (and that isn't still a certainty if they can't arrive at a price), there will be a great deal of night traffic in the area with the Peake and all its activity, the immediate proximity of 4 and possibly 5 fairly major hotels, the Montgomery, Legacy, and the new parking garage/apartments within a couple of blocks, and being a couple of blocks from both Bricktown and Film Row. With the west edge still to be determined and future possibilities with the old Cox center, I think it is way too early to predict the death of MG or the area based on the CC and CC Hotel being placed there.

[Rover]

You are so obtuse.

So, when a reasonable argument can't be presented by you, this is the best answer you have...to insult. Does that get you serious consideration in your circles?

[Bellaboo]

So, when a reasonable argument can't be presented by you, this is the best answer you have...to insult. Does that get you serious consideration in your circles?

Not much consideration, if you re-read his posts, at times he seems to be venting, even though he has good points every now and then.

[Just the facts]

Back the truck up....

Juel
10:38 a.m.

I am hearing the asking price of the proposed convention center site is cost prohibitive and alternatives are beginning to be considered. Any validity to that.
Steve Lackmeyer
10:39 a.m.

I've asked City Manager Jim Couch last week about whether other sites are getting second look. He denied that the city is doing anything other than proceeding with ttrying to buy he site chosen south of the Myriad Gardens and move forward with designs. But those rumors are out there.


Read more: http://newsok.com/unedited-transcrip...#ixzz24l5ItkZN

Did Steve hear the same rumor last week which prompted his question to Jim Couch?

[soonerguru]

Back the truck up....



Did Steve hear the same rumor last week which prompted his question to Jim Couch?

It should be clear with Couch's comical recent failures in budget planning and project management that ANY figure or projection his office makes should be heavily scrutinized. A ton is riding on this project. It's already the biggest MAPS III albatross.

[king183]

Check out Steve's blog. He just posted two flashback items regarding the convention center. He usually posts these flashback items as a prelude to new information coming out or a renewed debate/discussion occurring.

http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/

[Just the facts]

I think reality is setting in with the cost. Plus, the Stage Center site coming available, the discussion resulting from the boulevard, and an elementary school being built a block away screams - Mr Nichols, move this convention center.

[Spartan]

I absolutely agree about the relative importance of getting this block right. But on the subject of diversity and mixed use I think the subject gets too myopic sometimes.

Even with the cc on this block (and that isn't still a certainty if they can't arrive at a price), there will be a great deal of night traffic in the area with the Peake and all its activity, the immediate proximity of 4 and possibly 5 fairly major hotels, the Montgomery, Legacy, and the new parking garage/apartments within a couple of blocks, and being a couple of blocks from both Bricktown and Film Row. With the west edge still to be determined and future possibilities with the old Cox center, I think it is way too early to predict the death of MG or the area based on the CC and CC Hotel being placed there.

There is a difference between an area dying and failing to live up to its potential....

[LuccaBrasi]

The City paid Populous and GSB just under $500,000 to properly identify, study, and vet several sites ultimately choosing the "best one". "If" the City and powers that be honestly allowed that process to unfold as it should have, things like enhanced site costs due to the soils conditions, water table and/or environmental issues should have been well known and documented and taken into account from a budgetary standpoint. If any city is truly trying to identify the "best" and most viable site for an important project such as this, there should be few "ut-oh" surprises if the analysis process and due diligence was allowed to take the proper course. Then again, if the answer was known beforehand and the site analysis worked in reverse to validate the answer, then all kinds of issues and ut-oh's can creep into the equation. I'm not saying that's happened here, BUT, if news come out to support the rumors, it certainly would appear the City wasted taxpayer money it paid for a “mirage” report. I think if you looked in any city that's embarked on a large urban project like this that will ultimately change the entire urban dynamics of the city; it's always a mix of politics, money, power, and sensible urban design. I think politics and money usually win out, but not always. Then the best design within that scenario is the result. Which scenario has played out in OKC? Time may tell.........

[betts]

Then again, if the answer was known beforehand and the site analysis worked in reverse to validate the answer, then all kinds of issues and ut-oh's can creep into the equation. I'm not saying that's happened here, BUT, if news come out to support the rumors, it certainly would appear the City wasted taxpayer money it paid for a “mirage” report. I think if you looked in any city that's embarked on a large urban project like this that will ultimately change the entire urban dynamics of the city; it's always a mix of politics, money, power, and sensible urban design. I think politics and money usually win out, but not always. Then the best design within that scenario is the result. Which scenario has played out in OKC? Time may tell.........

When I attended the Populous presentation and looked at their scoring system, my thought certainly was that the "answer" was known beforehand and the site analysis worked in reverse. There were some numbers that made no sense.

[G.Walker]

I can't stress enough that if the CC proceeds as planned it will be an utter failure and disappointment to OKC taxpayers. With site acquisition costs, and other undetermined costs will only allow the city to build a mediocre CC, and we will still be in the lower tier in the convention center business.

The best thing they can do is rehabilitate and expand the Cox Center. They already own the land so there is no site acquisition costs, its at a perfect location, and they already have a shell to work with. They just need to gut the The Cox Center and start over. By doing this our $250 million will go a lot further, and could actually have money left over to fund $50 million to lure CC Hotel.

[Pete]

It's been obvious for a very long time that this old Ford site could not be done within the established budget.

To not even consider this while proceeding down a long and expensive road is ridiculous.

[CaptDave]

I still believe the CC needs to be moved south of the arena and eastward where the loading docks back up to the BNSF viaduct. It will get it out of the way of better development, but still be close enough to hotels, Bricktown, and the park to be accessible to them without overwhelming those places.

A OKCTalk member named BG918 posted an excellent CC concept a year ago or longer that would fit perfectly in that footprint.

[dankrutka]

The bigger issue is that if they botch the CC, the least popular MAPS3 item that has curiously been prioritized, they may turn public opinion against future MAPS projects. I'm very worried that the hubris of a few leaders is going to end the public investment that has greatly assisted OKC's renaissance. ;(

[SoonerDave]

When I attended the Populous presentation and looked at their scoring system, my thought certainly was that the "answer" was known beforehand and the site analysis worked in reverse. There were some numbers that made no sense.

I mostly read this particular thread, but couldn't help but chime in here, especially when it comes to pre-determined conclusions on its location...all I can think about is how someone I know and respect that used to work downtown told me years ago exactly where the CC was going to go, and darned if the "selected" site didn't just prove him to be exactly right. Must have been clairvoyant, right? (intense sarcasm light on). He even relayed at the time in a half-joking manner, not even appreciating the gravity of what he was saying, that certain companies had been made aware of the location so they could buy up the land now, and sell it back to the city at a sizeable profit in future years.

Maybe that was all just an astonishing coincidence, lucky guess, or whatever, but its becoming just about impossible for me to believe this has been a legitimate selection process. Just my opinion.

[Rover]

So the Ford dealership was a long standing con job? Interesting accusation.