Convention Center

[Just the facts]

To parahrase Jane Jacobs (only because I can find the exact quote right now), great archicture doesn't always make a great neighborhood. I am also concerned that MBG will suffer from a lack of time diversity. Surrounded totally by day time office and convention uses, who will use it after 5PM?

[Rover]

To parahrase Jane Jacobs (only because I can find the exact quote right now), great archicture doesn't always make a great neighborhood. I am also concerned that MBG will suffer from a lack of time diversity. Surrounded totally by day time office and convention uses, who will use it after 5PM?

Even in NYC every neighborhood isn't fully active 24 hrs a day. It is okay to have predominantly business areas. Or does new urbanism dogma dictate sameness in all areas?

[mcca7596]

It is okay to have predominantly business areas.

How is it okay in cities to have places that are devoid of humans for more than half the day?

[dankrutka]

Even in NYC every neighborhood isn't fully active 24 hrs a day. It is okay to have predominantly business areas. Or does new urbanism dogma dictate sameness in all areas?

But not when you just renovated an exceptional city park in the middle of the area. Otherwise, the park should have gone somewhere else...

[soonerguru]

Even in NYC every neighborhood isn't fully active 24 hrs a day. It is okay to have predominantly business areas. Or does new urbanism dogma dictate sameness in all areas?

You are so obtuse.

[ljbab728]

You are so obtuse.

sg, again your personal attacks are not apprciated. If you have a point to make you can do it without that.

[Rover]

You are so obtuse.

So, when a reasonable argument can't be presented by you, this is the best answer you have...to insult. Does that get you serious consideration in your circles?

[Bellaboo]

So, when a reasonable argument can't be presented by you, this is the best answer you have...to insult. Does that get you serious consideration in your circles?

Not much consideration, if you re-read his posts, at times he seems to be venting, even though he has good points every now and then.

[Teo9969]

To parahrase Jane Jacobs (only because I can find the exact quote right now), great archicture doesn't always make a great neighborhood. I am also concerned that MBG will suffer from a lack of time diversity. Surrounded totally by day time office and convention uses, who will use it after 5PM?

The arena is caddy corner...Conventions don't last all day, and a lot of people like to get out of the hotel after the convention...There are areas of downtown that won't draw many people after business hours...this is not one of them.

[Bellaboo]

To parahrase Jane Jacobs (only because I can find the exact quote right now), great archicture doesn't always make a great neighborhood. I am also concerned that MBG will suffer from a lack of time diversity. Surrounded totally by day time office and convention uses, who will use it after 5PM?

The same folks that use it now after 5 pm. I was down there at 8:30 the other evening. I had a hard time finding a parking spot. They had a play going on on the stage, they had American Idol contestants all over everywhere practicing believe it or not..... with a large hotel just accross the street (CC), there will be visitors. With all the LED lighting going on, it's quite pleasant walking around at night.
There was a basketball crowd at the outdoor court just accross the street.

Think about it, right now, you have 3 sides that are more or less vacant, only the Colcord is active after 5 pm.

Now when winter rolls around, it could be a different story, except for the skating rink.

[Rover]

Devon used world class consultants, designers, and contractors. I think that influence of excellence would be a great reason to have all those people involved. We should hope the cc project comes in on time and on or under budget like Devon. I find it hard to believe people would think that a bad or evil thing, but some do, I guess.

[Just the facts]

I don't know many conventioneers who hang out in parks at night. Of course, if Stage Center becomes residential it might not be as big an issue. It would be bad if the MBG restaurant was closed after 1:30 PM everyday because all they have for a customer base is the business lunch crowd.

[Bellaboo]

I don't know many conventioneers who hang out in parks at night. Of course, if Stage Center becomes residential it might not be as big an issue. It would be bad if the MBG restaurant was closed after 1:30 PM everyday because all they have for a customer base is the business lunch crowd.

Can you imagine the increase in pedestrian traffic inside the botanical tube due to conventioneers ? It will be 10 fold compared if they stayed at the Skirvin or any Bricktown hotel. They will spend time in the entire park also. They have lately put up some pretty cool life size sculptures, the park just keeps getting better.

[Teo9969]

I don't know many conventioneers who hang out in parks at night. Of course, if Stage Center becomes residential it might not be as big an issue. It would be bad if the MBG restaurant was closed after 1:30 PM everyday because all they have for a customer base is the business lunch crowd.

If by night you mean when the sun sets, then yeah, i see what you're saying. But if by night you mean 7PM when it's daylight...I think you'd be pleasantly surprised by the number of people looking to blow a little time after the convention day is over and would be willing to go to the small park and walk around for a bit. It may not be 100 people of a 1000 person convention between 5 and 7, but even 50 people is a lot of influx for MBG.

[catch22]

From my experience, MBG is barren from about 5PM to 7PMish. I am guessing that is between when the workers flee downtown and when the suburban tourists make their run for downtown.

[Just the facts]

From my experience, MBG is barren from about 5PM to 7PMish. I am guessing that is between when the workers flee downtown and when the suburban tourists make their run for downtown.

Any idea what is attracting the crowd after 7PM?

On second thought - never mind. We strayed along way from Convention Center Hotel.

[catch22]

Any idea what is attracting the crowd after 7PM?

On second thought - never mind. We strayed along way from Convention Center Hotel.

It's a world class park designed for people. People are naturally attracted to it. I find myself gravitating to it for no reason sometimes if I am in the immediate area and have time to walk around.

[Teo9969]

From my experience, MBG is barren from about 5PM to 7PMish. I am guessing that is between when the workers flee downtown and when the suburban tourists make their run for downtown.

And that's also dinner time, so plenty of people are at home or eating in a restaurant.

[Just the facts]

It is really pretty simple. Any facility/service/business needs a steady stream of customer throughout the day. When one customer base leaves it needs to be followed up by another incoming customer base. This allows goods and services to remain available throughout the day. Ideally, both waves of customer need to be about the same size in order to support the same amount of commerce or activity. When downtown office workers go home nearly every business in downtown OKC closes the doors with them. The 2,000 downtown residents simply can't provide the same level of economic support that 15,000 office workers can, so naturally business drops off and most shut down at 5PM (if not well before that). Devon is great but pretty much closes to the public at 1:30PM for example.

As available space is taken up by office space, or in this case convention space, it move the customer necessary to keep existing business open past 1:30PM further away. In the case of MBG, the people are actually being moved closer to another park that will also be across the street from the convention center AND caddie corner from the arena. So now we will have a day-use park (MBG) and an after 5PM park (Central Park). Neither one will have a steady stream of visitors to provide the necessary activity adjacent business will need to rely on. That is the only point I was trying to make

[BDP]

I'm pretty sure it will be at least a decade after the completion of the convention center before the MAPS 3 park is a more attractive place to hang out in at night than MBG. I don't think some realize how long it will be before anyone is hanging out in the C2S park at all, let alone when it will have any added amenities that attract tourists.

[betts]

I'm pretty sure it will be at least a decade after the completion of the convention center before the MAPS 3 park is a more attractive place to hang out in at night than MBG. I don't think some realize how long it will be before anyone is hanging out in the C2S park at all, let alone when it will have any added amenities that attract tourists.

Sometimes the only amenities you need for a park that attracts tourists is trees and a sidewalk. We're not that far off from trees and a sidewalk/trail. Programming is overrated, IMO.

[BDP]

Sometimes the only amenities you need for a park that attracts tourists is trees and a sidewalk. We're not that far off from trees and a sidewalk/trail. Programming is overrated, IMO.

I agree it will be used before any amenities, especially by locals. But before you draw crowds or outsiders, you at least need staging areas for activities. This could be as simple as sports fields and trails or as elaborate as amphitheaters.

As far as not being far off, I didn't think the city even owned all of it, yet. And then there will be a pretty serious environmental clean up, the size of which has yet to be determined. And before any of that starts, we have to get the money for it from the MAPS taxes, and I don't think collections have met the budget for the park yet. I don't see how it's going to be useable for at least 10 years unless they do it in very small stages.

[Larry OKC]

...As far as not being far off, I didn't think the city even owned all of it, yet. And then there will be a pretty serious environmental clean up, the size of which has yet to be determined. And before any of that starts, we have to get the money for it from the MAPS taxes, and I don't think collections have met the budget for the park yet. I don't see how it's going to be useable for at least 10 years unless they do it in very small stages.

MAPS 3 was projected to bring in an average of $100 million/yr or $8,333,333/month. They have been collecting the tax for 2 years and 4+ months (started April 1, 2010), and tax collections are multi-millions above the projections. If the Park had been built first as was the Mayor's stated preference, they had the entire $130 million in-hand no latter than 16 months or right at this time last year (if my fingers didn't fail me...LOL). Granted, this is if they used all the money for 1 project at a time instead of multiple projects in various stages. But you are correct, they are doing it in stages now with minimal landscaping with the completion of the Park more towards the end of the time line.

ON EDIT: my apologies to Rover and others wanting to stay on topic. I was just responding to the discussion and really didn't notice the thread topic. Again, my apologies, so you can now get back to the regularly scheduled thread topic (I hope).

[BDP]

MAPS 3 was projected to bring in an average of $100 million/yr or $8,333,333/month. They have been collecting the tax for 2 years and 4+ months (started April 1, 2010), and tax collections are multi-millions above the projections. If the Park had been built first as was the Mayor's stated preference, they had the entire $130 million in-hand no latter than 16 months or right at this time last year (if my fingers didn't fail me...LOL). Granted, this is if they used all the money for 1 project at a time instead of multiple projects in various stages. But you are correct, they are doing it in stages now with minimal landscaping with the completion of the Park more towards the end of the time line.

ON EDIT: my apologies to Rover and others wanting to stay on topic. I was just responding to the discussion and really didn't notice the thread topic. Again, my apologies, so you can now get back to the regularly scheduled thread topic (I hope).

Yeah. It's not what I would have done, but it is how it's going down. C2S park as a functioning urban destination is a ways away.

Seems like we have already been missing out on a number of high profile concerts that now go to Tulsa and Wichita because of scheduling conflicts. Guess we could afford to miss a few more. No big deal.

Why did people keep saying this? There is NOTHING about the Thunder being here that prevents the feasibility of hosting any concert that wants to come here. This is done all over the country. Look to the Staples center for the extreme example. THREE major league teams play there in a city that has no shortage of concert venues and they still have several concerts there a year, often sandwiched in between sporting events. A scheduling conflict only exists if there is only ONE available date and a basketball game is being played. If they want to have a show here, they will work around that, for sure.

In relation to Tulsa, MANY of the shows at BOK Center have already been through Oklahoma City and recently many have been making stops at both on opposite ends of the tour. And how many of those BOK shows actually took place on a night the Thunder played in OKC? Not many. The Thunder plays around 40 games a year at CEA. That leaves 325 other days for shows. That's not much of a conflict, if any. Concert tours are accustomed to working around the primary tenant of a venue and seeing as how we only have one and many cities have more than one, we're actually a very easy market to schedule.

If shows are booking BOK in place of CEA for a reason other than to avoid market saturation, arena management probably has more to do with it than anything. You see, SMG manages the two major arenas in Oklahoma. One of those arenas has a major tenant. The other one NEEDS touring events to generate revenue and, even with that, they're still 40 nights in the hole out the gate against their arena in OKC. So, which one would you try and influence tours to book? If you had competing management, I bet you would see a difference in scheduling.

In any event, just having just 40 nights a year pre-booked should not cause any major scheduling conflicts or operational hurdles to booking any major one-night event, such as a concert, in Oklahoma City. If a tour chooses to book BOK instead of CEA, more often than not it's going to be the result of a business and/or market decision and not one that was forced due to scheduling.

[Rover]

I guess because we are so small we think of neighborhoods in terms of a few feet, not a few blocks. If MG is a draw, then all the new tenants of deep deuce and mid town, not to mention all the new hotel quests, should walk or ride a couple of blocks to go use it. It shouldn't rely strictly on what is across the street. This should be especially true when the mass trans is in place. Downtown needs to be a neighborhood and we should look at what is happening throughout the downtown and not just block by block.