Convention Center

[betts]

Above is my mock up of the park site. I used the same convention center footprint from what was determined as needed from the old ford dealership sit.

I fit the current park model on the same site with the above ground convention center. All I did was shrink a portion of lake in the park, which is unneeded because the river is directly to the south of the park.

I know we have sunk costs in the planning of the park, but those can easily be changed. Also, don't forget we have the entire south park of the park on the other side of I40.

All of the brown/black boxes are private development that could be turned in to retail/housing/hotels/restaurants. This solves the problem of not being directly next to bricktown, but still hclose enough that people could visit.

Has great visibility access along the new blvd, and from people exiting I40 in to bricktown.

The hotel isn't located in the new park lands, or land that needs to be acquired so no issues with eminent domain can arise.

Land acquisition costs will decrease, and will also prevent a new "super block" from being built which decreases walk ability.

Now imagine walking out of the convention center & seeing the park & a ton of floor level retail around the park. You can visually see the places you want to visit & can walk directly to your attended destination due to the openness of the park.

Where are your loading docks?

[jccouger]

Either to the east or the west, most likely the west. Where would they have been if built on the ford site?

[Pete]

Does the city own any of the land in Spartan's proposal above? Why wouldn't that work?

It could very well work and I've advocated for that site and listed the many reasons why.

However, I'm not sure the committee would ever agree to it.

[Jersey Boss]

How popular is the park today? When the park was approved, Myriad Gardens had not yet been revitalized and the organic urban growth north of Reno had not yet taken off, hence a greater need for Core 2 Shore. The city needs to evaluate where its at TODAY and determine if the vision laid out a decade ago is still relevant in light of everything that has changed in this city over the past five years.

Personally if there was one project I would cancel it would be the park. I would divide the money between the streetcar and the convention center.

Good question, but I would be willing to bet the Park is more popular as more locals would benefit from it.

[bchris02]

I've had a feeling since this blew up the cc would end up on the Cox site because the committee has put the City in a situation where there just doesn't seem to be another option.

I still think that is a very bad idea for lots of reasons and am increasingly worried it will happen despite the concerns of the CVB simply because Cox may be presented as the only workable solution.

Could a deal be worked to use the new fairgrounds Expo Center in place of the Cox during the interim? I know that's not ideal but could that be a temporary solution to avoid OKC losing the convention business it already has while the Cox is being rebuilt/expanded?

[Pete]

Could a deal be worked to use the new fairgrounds Expo Center in place of the Cox during the interim? I know that's not ideal but could that be a temporary solution to avoid OKC losing the convention business it already has while the Cox is being rebuilt/expanded?

On the previous page of this thread is an article from today's JR that speaks to this issue.

[hfry]

The plan still suffers from being to far from the bricktown amenities in that 10 min walk. It is no doubt a interesting idea but the retail around the park can happen with any of the proposals but you cant go off what hasnt been built yet. Also, how does it get expanded? We have to tear up the park for every expansion? In the end you save something around 14 million for land acquisition which is 5% or so of the CC budget. It would be nice to have since I still will be surprised to see bids come in at budget. Lastly, I understand what you are saying about the river just south but the lake is my favorite part of the park. With it smaller it loses any functionality it has as being used rather than something nice to look it. While I love the water at the MG you can't do anything but look at it. Again its a great idea and if we ended up with it, Its still better than what we have but I think there are better options.

[Video Expert]

I've glossed over all the pros/cons and still do not see why the C2S South is such a bad backup plan. While I completely understand the walking distance to amenities argument, I just don't see a big geographic difference in the two sites other than the main part of the hall would extend South instead of West.

While I do not claim to know a typical convention planner's mindset or wish list, I do attend and exhibit at CCs around the country. Anyone ever been to the McCormick Place in Chicago?? It's an extremely successful CC venue that isn't even close to walking distance from the the South Loop part of downtown where many of the hotels and restaurants are. It's actually a 10 minute drive from there (not counting the wait time to get your car from Valet) and it is even farther if your hotel is in the North Loop area that is extremely popular with visitors. McCormick Place has only one hotel on site and no choice of restaurants that are even close. Everyone who isn't staying at the on-site Hyatt Hotel has to drive to the CC, ride shuttles, or take taxis just to get there. And if your convention is on the East side of the complex, it's an additional 10-12 minutes just to walk from the overpriced parking garage and through the skywalk over to those Exhibit Hall floors. With that said, it's booked solid pretty much year round. Yes...I know it's Chicago and not OKC. But the fact remains that it's not anywhere close to within walking distance of anything.

I also have exhibited at the Las Vegas Convention Center and I can tell you that really not very close to anything either other than some minor hotels along Paradise Rd. However, they have the Monorail that leads from there to most all of the hotels and restaurants along the East side of the Strip.

So...is it out of the realm of possibility to consider constructing a very short Monorail or Tram system from this proposed C2S South CC site over to the CBD or to Bricktown? That would drastically reduce travel times between this CC site and the amenities, and perhaps it could actually pay for itself with fees that would be generated and paid by Convention attendees. And people who are visiting the C2S Park would also have the option to use it for quick access over to the CBD and Bricktown since the Streetcar system currently does not have a proposed route over there. Maybe the idea is laughable...I really don't know. I've read other ideas about "capping" interstates and so forth, so I don't think my idea is necessarily all that outrageous. Perhaps it's cost prohibitive, but would it cost more to do this than to lose the revenue generated by 85% of the current convention business that would be lost if we went with the Cox site??

[jccouger]

The plan still suffers from being to far from the bricktown amenities in that 10 min walk. It is no doubt a interesting idea but the retail around the park can happen with any of the proposals but you cant go off what hasnt been built yet. Also, how does it get expanded? We have to tear up the park for every expansion? In the end you save something around 14 million for land acquisition which is 5% or so of the CC budget. It would be nice to have since I still will be surprised to see bids come in at budget. Lastly, I understand what you are saying about the river just south but the lake is my favorite part of the park. With it smaller it loses any functionality it has as being used rather than something nice to look it. While I love the water at the MG you can't do anything but look at it. Again its a great idea and if we ended up with it, Its still better than what we have but I think there are better options.

I included the previous ford site expansion area in the floor plan of my site.

Also, the hotel where most people would be walking from is still pretty close to Bricktown.

[Canoe]

Marge vs. the Monorail - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Just the facts]

If they use the Cox site where do the loading docs go; A) facing the arena, B) facing MBG, C) facing the Sheraton/Renaissance, D) facing Santa Fe transit hub?

[Spartan]

If they use the Cox site where do the loading docs go; A) facing the arena, B) facing MBG, C) facing the Sheraton/Renaissance, D) facing Santa Fe transit hub?

Well right now they face the Santa Fe transit hub. I mean, they grace the Santa Fe Depot with a complimentary blend of...ah **** it.

[Pete]

There are also docks on the west and south sides of the Cox center, facing both the Myriad Gardens and the arena.

That building can't go away soon enough to suit me.

[Teo9969]

There are also docks on the west and south sides of the Cox center, facing both the Myriad Gardens and the arena.

That building can't go away soon enough to suit me.

I'm okay with giving it a couple more years myself. We are clearly still not ready as a city to plan and subsequently develop according to urbanism best practices where they ought to be applied (which anything in the 13th/235/River/Classen box without question is such a place). The thought of the city making a move on the Cox site before 2020 scares the bejeezus out of me.

[Pete]

I don't know, we seem to have taken a u-turn in our urban learning curve...

Maybe we should redevelop that site ASAP.

[JRod1980]

Everyone keeps saying that the site south of the Chesapeake Arena is further from Bricktown and Hotels, but I don't understand where they are coming up with that conclusion.

1. Yes, it's further from the Colcord, Sheraton and Renaissance Hotels by 1 block, compared to the Ford site. However, are we not building a hotel next to the convention center that will basically accommodate for all of the conventions room needs?

2. No, it's not further from an entry to Bricktown. If the building is 1 block south of the arena, then it's 1 block east of the old Ford site making it closer to Bricktown. With the addition of the Crosstown Blvd and a new underpass where the railroad currently separates this site, walking into south Bricktown is basically crossing the street.

Maybe my information is off a bit, but I actually think the site directly south of the Chesapeake Arena was the best site to begin with. How many Convention Centers in the country are across the street from a beautiful downtown park with easy access to highways?

[Pete]

Jrod, even if we build an adjacent convention hotel for big groups we would need as much access to the other downtown hotels as possible.

But I generally agree with your points. The real issue is that the cc committee has several powerful people and they don't seem to be too keen on that site east of the park.

[Just the facts]

Looking back I have to laugh at the idea that this was going to be built underground with enough room for 12 semis to unload - for $250 million.

[JRod1980]

Pete,

I agree with you on the big groups, but realistically OKC would attract maybe 2-3 very large groups per year and that would likely come with heavy incentives from the city towards the group. When I was the Sales Manager at the Sheraton, Legal Shield was the largest convention OKC was attracting. The group basically took up every single hotel in the downtown/bricktown area. If I remember correctly, their contract with the city ran through 2015-2016 calendar year. However, Las Vegas can calling and gave the group ridiculous discounts to move and the group paid a hefty fee to get out of the contract but did so gladly. Point being, any group that large in size is likely to go to cities like Las Vegas, San Diego, New Orleans or Orlando regardless of what we offer. So if we do get 1000 to 1500 person groups, i think it would be very limited, now if we are talking about 500-900 person groups, think OKC will make a killing on those sizes which would likely all fit in 1 large convention hotel.

[Spartan]

I don't know, we seem to have taken a u-turn in our urban learning curve...

Maybe we should redevelop that site ASAP.

What I don't understand is this: Is nobody listening, watching, pushing for better, and trying to uphold what the city has worked toward this far? So far 2015 has been a really ****ty year for downtown. Is this the new normal? Are we doomed?

[JRod1980]

The one thing that most people don't fully understand or anticipate is, what will the new hotel do to the rest of the hotels in the downtown/bricktown area. Right now, everyone is thriving with the convention business that OKC gets. But if the new hotel is lets say 700-800 rooms in size, then all of the sudden you have more space then the Sheraton, Renaissance and Skirvin combined. So if the city is attracting 20-25 conventions of 500-800 participants each and they are all staying in the new hotel, thats 2-3 major hotels that are losing sell out weeks 20-25 weeks out of the year.

Just a thought...

[Pete]

What I don't understand is this: Is nobody listening, watching, pushing for better, and trying to uphold what the city has worked toward this far? So far 2015 has been a really ****ty year for downtown. Is this the new normal? Are we doomed?

People are definitely pushing for better in all sorts of ways.

And lots of others would if not for undue influence.

We have a bunch or great urbanist / preservationist developers in OKC now and notice how not one of them spoke out about about the Preftakes Block? I have been told by more than one that is not a coincidence. There is still a big price to pay for trying to buck power in OKC.

It is also important to note our own Planning Department only advocated for ONE of nine buildings, And Preservation Oklahoma didn't even appeal the DDRC's decision.

[Teo9969]

The one thing that most people don't fully understand or anticipate is, what will the new hotel do to the rest of the hotels in the downtown/bricktown area. Right now, everyone is thriving with the convention business that OKC gets. But if the new hotel is lets say 700-800 rooms in size, then all of the sudden you have more space then the Sheraton, Renaissance and Skirvin combined. So if the city is attracting 20-25 conventions of 500-800 participants each and they are all staying in the new hotel, thats 2-3 major hotels that are losing sell out weeks 20-25 weeks out of the year.

Just a thought...

I don't think it usually works like that. Lots of people will stay in the cc hotel, yes. But many will stay in other places because they have brand loyalties, get better rates elsewhere, or want to stay somewhere closer to other activities. Plus, the cc hotel is still a normal operating hotel, and will have bookings at it that are not convention oriented. So even if it's a 700 room hotel, a portion of those will be booked by non convention attendees, especially if it's our highest quality full-service hotel downtown.

[Pete]

One of the big advantages of a convention hotel is they can work with the cc and carve out big blocks of rooms, then guarantee them to event organizers often at a discount.

That's a pretty big deal in terms of attracting conventions and other events.

[Just the facts]

If we offer discounts to convention planners to get the conventions, and then discounts to the attendees for the rooms, when do we start making the money we were told the conventions would bring in?