Convention Center

[Just the facts]

Best idea yet to build a center at the scale they desired. That section of Shields will never be more than what it is now anyhow so no money needs to be spent making that whole side decorative. I hate to lose the International Harvester building though. I also wonder what the price tag is for that land considering a hotel is set to be developed on one block. Also, they would have to buy the expansion land now or they will have a repeat of this same problem when they get ready to expand.

[Pete]

Are TIF funds available for this project?

Any TIF award has to be approved by the city council and I think that would be a tough move politically. But legally, I think they could do it.

They were planning to use TIF for both the convention hotel and parking garage, so in that way that was already a big part of the strategy.

[hoya]

Okay, following up my earlier post.

The land near the Farmer's Market:



This is just over twice the size of the Cox Center block, about 26 acres. There's over a million square feet of land here in one spot. There's room to expand almost forever.

Here's what is nearby that area:



The yellow squares at the top of the photo are housing -- the Civic Center Flats and 700 West -- nearly 300 units of housing.

The green squares are the 21c hotel and the projects that are supposed to spring up around it. We don't know what those are yet, but that's where they will be.

The yellow line is the new Boulevard.

The medium blue is my proposed Convention Center site.

The pink box is the Farmer's Market building.

The very light blue is the top of the Wheeler District. The red circle is the Santa Monica Ferris Wheel.

This location has, I think, the highest potential of any of the ones we've looked at so far, with the exception of the Cotton Mill. It has the advantage of being far more affordable than the Cotton Mill site as well. Now, this potential won't be realized in 2020, when this thing gets built. But as the Wheeler District grows, and when 21c is finished, and as development starts to stretch to the west, this location will come into its own. We can get a LOT of bang for our buck here, and that's what MAPS projects are really about.

Are we ignoring the Bricktown hotels? Yes, but those hotels have been able to support themselves. They aren't reliant upon the convention business. This also starts renovation of two very important corridors -- Western and Exchange. I'm sure we are going to want to connect the Wheeler District with downtown through a future expansion of the streetcar. This gives us more reason to do that. It also potentially lets us connect Stockyard City and Cattlemen's the same way.

Is this the best place to host a convention in 2015? No.



But it's going to be absolutely amazing in 2035. It'll be built by 2020, and we'll have torn down the Cox Center by 2025. That gives us ample time to get the area into decent shape so conventioneers aren't scared off.

You slap a $250 million convention center and a $130 million Omni hotel on this land and you can bet you'll attract investment in the area.

Edit:

I also think it's best to spread out our civic investment dollars. With the money we invested in the Myriad Gardens and the Central Park, we totally priced ourselves out of the original convention center space. That land was cheap before we made everything nice. We shouldn't be bidding against ourselves for the land. We should make public investment in different areas of downtown, and let private dollars fill in the gaps. Right now the Central Park has the potential to make dozens of blocks of land very valuable and spur a lot of development. Let's leave that land alone so we can reap the full rewards of that project. The convention center can have a similar effect a little bit to the west. Let's let it be the western anchor for the Core 2 Shore area.

Edit 2:

That Ferris Wheel is going to be a major attraction, and a lot of convention goers will want to ride on it. I think maybe everybody will want to ride it. As the Wheeler District builds up, there will be a lot of restaurants and hotels there. That will be a very easy walk (we can put a pedestrian bridge across the river if we want so they aren't having to walk on the sidewalk of Western) and it will be very visible. That's the thing they're going to look at when they walk outside of the convention. They'll all go that way in the evening. With the Farmer's Market right across the street (I'm already turning it into retail in my mind), they'll have a lot of things to do right there.

[Urbanized]

...Glad to see betts' FitBit verified my Google Maps distances. It is not that much of a walk to Bricktown from C2S East - still in the 10 minute range.

Actually it did nothing of the sort. Credit to Betts - a loyal proponent of the C2S location - for being honest about numbers that are damaging to that site from a walkability standpoint.

For those who care, a universally-accepted walking speed is about 3.1 MPH. That would place the dealership location as she measured it (.52 miles) 10 minutes and 3 seconds from the Bricktown Starbucks, while the C2S site (.66 miles by her measure) would be nearly THIRTEEN MINUTES (12:46). Which means literally every other business in Bricktown (save Fuzzy's) is more than 13 minutes. Most of them - as I have been saying all along - are FIFTEEN MINUTES PLUS.

Doesn't sound like much, but it almost assuredly can't be done round trip during a one-hour lunch break. Not to mention the fact that statistically people start driving when a walk exceeds 10 minutes. And that C2S number doesn't factor crossing the soon-to appear six lane boulevard with interstate on-ramps on each end. It renders EVERY LAST BUILDING IN BRICKTOWN outside of the 10 minute amenities bubble that is used to make convention space salable.

Of course, the dealership location also had a long distance relationship with Bricktown (though not AS long), but full service hotels were squarely in the bubble; they are completely out of the bubble in C2S.

Credit Betts for doing the on-the-ground research and posting results, despite the fact that they don't support the C2S location.

Sorry, I will crawl back into my hole now; I just couldn't let such blatant misinterpretation of data go without comment.

[Just the facts]

I guess I have to wonder if convention centers are a development magnet outside of the adjacent convention hotel (which is also built with public funds). Based on my observations convention center actually discourage an active civic life around them, mostly because they are impossible to build at the human scale and by their very nature are not used frequently on nights and weekends. Orlando has one of the largest and most attended convention centers on the planet and there isn't squat to do around it and the convention center in Philadelphia is a human repellent after 5PM. Not even the bums go there because there is no one to beg money from.

[Urbanized]

One more thing: Hoya, I almost always agree with you on this board, but the Farmers Market thing is even more troubling than most that have been mentioned. The same people have owned much of that area for more than a decade now, and what do we have to show for it? A single 20x20 (admittedly great) bar.

I simply can't believe the cavalier attitudes thrown around on here regarding ensuring that a QUARTER BILLION DOLLAR taxpayer investment be successful. It's not something that can simply be left to chance, or guessing.

Anyway, all of the guesses and drawings on this board are an interesting distraction, but to be honest I think the solution is going to end up being one we're not even discussing here.

[soonerguru]

Actually it did nothing of the sort. Credit to Betts - a loyal proponent of the C2S location - for being honest about numbers that are damaging to that site from a walkability standpoint.

For those who care, a universally-accepted walking speed is about 3.1 MPH. That would place the dealership location as she measured it (.52 miles) 10 minutes and 3 seconds from the Bricktown Starbucks, while the C2S site (.66 miles by her measure) would be nearly THIRTEEN MINUTES (12:46). Which means literally every other business in Bricktown (save Fuzzy's) is more than 13 minutes. Most of them - as I have been saying all along - are FIFTEEN MINUTES PLUS.

Doesn't sound like much, but it almost assuredly can't be done round trip during a one-hour lunch break. Not to mention the fact that statistically people start driving when a walk exceeds 10 minutes. And that C2S number doesn't factor crossing the soon-to appear six lane boulevard with interstate on-ramps on each end. It renders EVERY LAST BUILDING IN BRICKTOWN outside of the 10 minute amenities bubble that is used to make convention space salable.

Of course, the dealership location also had a long distance relationship with Bricktown (though not AS long), but full service hotels were squarely in the bubble; they are completely out of the bubble in C2S.

Credit Betts for doing the on-the-ground research and posting results, despite the fact that they don't support the C2S location.

Sorry, I will crawl back into my hole now; I just couldn't let such blatant misinterpretation of data go without comment.

Not sure what I'm missing here, but won't Bricktown be connected to the Convention Center by the Streetcar? Ideally, we could locate as close to our entertainment district as possible, but we seem to be running out of reasonable alternatives to make that happen. Along the same lines, if a new, doable location isn't quickly identified, this has the potential of derailing multiple MAPS projects.

It is clear to me that this project was under-budgeted from the get go. It's not clear that we would have even been able to produce a quality build on the existing budget at even the former location. Now, the project budget will surely explode, and I will be shocked if the CC subcommittee doesn't try to reach out and grab every existing dollar left in the contingency fund.

While it is not new for MAPS projects to go over budget, this one in particular has not been well managed.

[Urban Pioneer]

I think it is a mistake to think that it was under-budgeted. They have continually chosen to expand the scope wherever possible.

[LocoAko]

Actually it did nothing of the sort. Credit to Betts - a loyal proponent of the C2S location - for being honest about numbers that are damaging to that site from a walkability standpoint.

For those who care, a universally-accepted walking speed is about 3.1 MPH. That would place the dealership location as she measured it (.52 miles) 10 minutes and 3 seconds from the Bricktown Starbucks, while the C2S site (.66 miles by her measure) would be nearly THIRTEEN MINUTES (12:46). Which means literally every other business in Bricktown (save Fuzzy's) is more than 13 minutes. Most of them - as I have been saying all along - are FIFTEEN MINUTES PLUS.

Doesn't sound like much, but it almost assuredly can't be done round trip during a one-hour lunch break. Not to mention the fact that statistically people start driving when a walk exceeds 10 minutes. And that C2S number doesn't factor crossing the soon-to appear six lane boulevard with interstate on-ramps on each end. It renders EVERY LAST BUILDING IN BRICKTOWN outside of the 10 minute amenities bubble that is used to make convention space salable.

Of course, the dealership location also had a long distance relationship with Bricktown (though not AS long), but full service hotels were squarely in the bubble; they are completely out of the bubble in C2S.

Credit Betts for doing the on-the-ground research and posting results, despite the fact that they don't support the C2S location.

Sorry, I will crawl back into my hole now; I just couldn't let such blatant misinterpretation of data go without comment.

Thank you.

[Pete]

Anyway, all of the guesses and drawings on this board are an interesting distraction, but to be honest I think the solution is going to end up being one we're not even discussing here.

Please enlighten us.

[Urbanized]

Guru, we've covered the streetcar's abilities and limitations as it relates to the CC before. If equipment is stacked at the front door, waiting for a program break, it could take a few hundred...and then not be back for what? Ten minutes? Fifteen? And that's assuming an express route with dedicated equipment. And after it picks them up, it leaves a few thousand standing there waiting. It is a great amenity for getting people around to dinner/bars/districts in the evening, or for trickling them into the area in the morning, but it won't help a lunch time crunch much at all. The streetcar is great, but for this particular purpose it is NOT the panacea we'd all like for it to be.

[Urban Pioneer]

"but was also the initial favorite of Mayor Mick Cornett — the electrical substation block along Robinson Avenue between SW 3 and SW 7." —From Steve's article.

I think it is important to point out that this was Russell Claus' (former Planning Director) preferred location and he conveyed to the Mayor on the merits of this location. The Mayor listened to him and agreed. That is why it stuck in the Core to Shore Plan.

It was the CC Subcommittee that essentially escorted the multiple site evaluation scoring process. Maybe they thought that they were supposed to at the consultant's behest. Arguably, Russell Claus did not stick up for his plans. One can argue that his hands were tied. I would have gone stark raving mad if I was paid to come up with plans that were consistently ignored. But he didn't fight for them when it counted. And if you are a director of an entire City Department, you kind of need to fight for the things your staff comes up with.

One wonders where we would be if that study had been taken seriously and the effort had been exerted on making the site he identified work. The only major enigma was the cost for the substation removal or screening.

[soonerguru]

I think it is a mistake to think that it was under-budgeted. They have continually chosen to expand the scope wherever possible.

I think I misstated what I was trying to say. My point was they were not realistic about the budget they would need, which is why they continue to try to grab more and more.

[soonerguru]

Guru, we've covered the streetcar's abilities and limitations as it relates to the CC before. If equipment is stacked at the front door, waiting for a program break, it could take a few hundred...and then not be back for what? Ten minutes? Fifteen? And that's assuming an express route with dedicated equipment. And after it picks them up, it leaves a few thousand standing there waiting. It is a great amenity for getting people around to dinner/bars/districts in the evening, or for trickling them into the area in the morning, but it won't help a lunch time crunch much at all. The streetcar is great, but for this particular purpose it is NOT the panacea we'd all like for it to be.

Gotcha. It will help people not willing to walk another three minutes, though.

[hoya]

One more thing: Hoya, I almost always agree with you on this board, but the Farmers Market thing is even more troubling than most that have been mentioned. The same people have owned much of that area for more than a decade now, and what do we have to show for it? A single 20x20 (admittedly great) bar.

I simply can't believe the cavalier attitudes thrown around on here regarding ensuring that a QUARTER BILLION DOLLAR taxpayer investment be successful. It's not something that can simply be left to chance, or guessing.

Anyway, all of the guesses and drawings on this board are an interesting distraction, but to be honest I think the solution is going to end up being one we're not even discussing here.

I can't believe how people are wanting to neuter the effect of the park. That's still a $130 million-ish investment, and here we are wanting to take up half the adjacent land with another public building.

Unless you put this thing on the North Bricktown lot, and somehow incorporate the rail line into the design of the building, we can't afford to have a convention center of 1) the needed size, that will 2) be close enough to all the existing amenities. It's highly questionable even with the North Bricktown location. Downtown is building up to the point that all the easy locations for this thing have been taken. That's a good thing until you want to build a convention center there and not spend half a billion dollars.

I want the convention center to be very successful, but I'm thinking about it over the life of the facility, not just the first five years or so. I think the people who have owned a lot of that land have been waiting for future growth. They know that downtown is booming and they're waiting their turn. We are seeing investment creep that direction right now. You put a quarter billion dollars there along with thousands of conventioners, and they'll build some restaurants. Right now it's Bricktown circa 1995. It's got cheap land and loads of potential.

[Pete]

"but was also the initial favorite of Mayor Mick Cornett — the electrical substation block along Robinson Avenue between SW 3 and SW 7." —From Steve's article. I think it is important to point out that this was Russell Clause' (former Planning Director) preferred location and he conveyed to the Mayor on the merits of this location. The Mayor listened to him and agreed. That is why it stuck in the Core to Shore Plan.

It was the CC Subcommittee that essentially escorted the multiple site evaluation scoring process. Maybe they thought that they were supposed to at the consultant's behest. Arguably, Russell Claus did not stick up for his plans. One can argue that his hands were tied. I would have gone stark raving mad if I was paid to come up with plans that were consistently ignored. But he didn't fight for them when it counted. And if you are a director of an entire City Department, you kind of need to fight for the things your staff comes up with.

One wonders where we would be if that study had been taken seriously and the effort had been exerted on making the site he identified work. The only major enigma was the cost for the substation removal or screening.

I was told that in the convention center meetings that Klaus was not even at the table, both literally and figuratively.

That he sat in the corner while others sat around the table where all the decisions were made.

No wonder he left his job in OKC for a town about the size of Enid and that so many city planners have quit as well.

[soonerguru]

The fact that the City was willing to just snub our planner director (with the background he has) was pretty prophetic. OKC is going to keep paying the high cost of dismissing good urban planning.

I agree, but i'm not sure a lot of these folks will notice, or care. "Quality urban planning" is not high on their list of priorities.

[Urban Pioneer]

Guru, we've covered the streetcar's abilities and limitations as it relates to the CC before. If equipment is stacked at the front door, waiting for a program break, it could take a few hundred...and then not be back for what? Ten minutes? Fifteen? And that's assuming an express route with dedicated equipment. And after it picks them up, it leaves a few thousand standing there waiting. It is a great amenity for getting people around to dinner/bars/districts in the evening, or for trickling them into the area in the morning, but it won't help a lunch time crunch much at all. The streetcar is great, but for this particular purpose it is NOT the panacea we'd all like for it to be.

I agree with you to some degree. However, I can't think of one convention where I didn't wander off during a conference or not return at the scheduled time. The streetcar is not the panacea for "crush load" scenarios. Wide sidewalks and direct routes are. However, it will play an important role in providing a consistent stream of people into Bricktown and help return those back to the Convention Center and hotels as people finish their meals or other experiences. And that is not just Bricktown. Arguably, Midtown and the Art District will benefit from the conventioneers as well.

If the south C2S site is chosen, I do not believe that the current design for the streetcar in the Convention Center and Bricktown areas will work. It will need to be redesigned. More to come about this later. We need to have some meetings first.

[Urbanized]

Gotcha. It will help people not willing to walk another three minutes, though.

Doubtful. After the first frustrating attempt, those people will be inclined to get into their cars. Again, just ask Dallas, which had to subsidize restaurant options surrounding their CC because the private sector wasn't building them, people didn't want to wait for trains, and they complained about lack of food options. These are the realities of that business.

[Urban Pioneer]

they were not realistic about the budget they would need

But do they really need it? The description of an "arms race" between cities has been brought up time and time again. I think the question really is, what is an adequate size that is architecturally stimulating, with great finishes, that our citizens can be proud of?

[soonerguru]

Doubtful. After the first frustrating attempt, those people will be inclined to get into their cars. Again, just ask Dallas, which had to subsidize restaurant options surrounding their CC because the private sector wasn't building them, people didn't want to wait for trains, and they complained about lack of food options. These are the realities of that business.

Well then.

[betts]

I can't imagine the Park subcommittee or the folks at Hargreaves allowing the convention center to eat up their project. The only possibility would be the land for phase two south of I-40 that fronts the river.

Which can only be accessed by the SkyDance bridge from the north. You might as well save your money were that our "central" park. Not to mention blocking all views of the Union Station.

[hfry]

Urbanized do you not agree fronting the CC to the northeast and on shields and not towards the park can help make up those precious few minutes? Especially with the new boulevard as a (hopefully) walking environment it can serve right into brick town or redoing shields a little can provide walking as well? I think everyone is aware of the issues that every site faces and no one here wants a CC that fails.

[Urban Pioneer]

I was told that in the convention center meetings that Klaus was not even at the table, both literally and figuratively.

That he sat in the corner while others sat around the table where all the decisions were made.

No wonder he left his job in OKC for a town about the size of Enid and that so many city planners have quit as well.

I never saw Claus fight for a seat at any of these tables. I really liked the guy but I rarely if ever saw him fight for the dreams that he helped create.

Maybe the ghost of Garner Stoll OKC's career or Paul Brum was haunting his career. Who knows.

[Urbanized]

Urbanized do you not agree fronting the CC to the northeast and on shields and not towards the park can help make up those precious few minutes? Especially with the new boulevard as a (hopefully) walking environment it can serve right into brick town or redoing shields a little can provide walking as well? I think everyone is aware of the issues that every site faces and no one here wants a CC that fails.

Honestly I think there are a number of people here who really don't care one way or the other if it succeeds or fails, and a number who would be tickled pink to see it done away with altogether.

I do think that the configuration shown fronting Shields is an interesting, creative idea. Where it is likely problematic is that somewhere along the way you have to account for a massive number of loading docks, and this orientation would make that very problematic. I also think people are still blowing right past how much site acquisition and remediation would be for C2S.

But seriously, I don't think it's going there. And I also don't think it's going to take up any park space. I believe at this point that it is probably moving toward a resolution that is not even being contemplated in this thread.