KWTV and Mason Dunn part ways

[oneforone]

I have some simple solution for severe weather warnings.

People
1. Remind people to monitor the weather daily.
2. If storms are in the forecast, pay attention to condtions outside and check it regularly.
3. If Tornadoes, Hail, Lighting and high winds are on the way, head to shelter.
4. Don't wait until the tornado has been confirmed to go to shelter. By then it is too late.
5. Use common sense, don't panic... your chances of dying in a storm are actually pretty slim.

Weather Forecaster and Broadcasters

1. Tell people what's happening nothing more and nothing less.
2. Anyone who goes on the air should be required to stay calm.
3. If the person get's scared or excited easily, they should not be allowed to speak on tv or radio during storms.
4. When the storm is clear go back to programming. Don't waste time showing and talking about damage. Save it for the next news cast.
5. If nothing is going on, go back to programming. Don't show a dark cloud covered sky with every storm spotter giving their two cents.

Common sense should always come in to play during these storms. There is no reason for anyone to panic or anyone on tv or radio to act like a kid on a sugar high at Chuckie Cheese.

[bucktalk]

Weather Forecaster and Broadcasters

1. Tell people what's happening nothing more and nothing less.
2. Anyone who goes on the air should be required to stay calm.
3. If the person get's scared or excited easily, they should not be allowed to speak on tv or radio during storms.
5. If nothing is going on, go back to programming. Don't show a dark cloud covered sky with every storm spotter giving their two cents.
4. When the storm is clear go back to programming. Don't waste time showing and talking about damage. Save it for the next news cast.

Sounds so logical to me. But to some local weather personalities/news directors it would not sound logical.

[Jim Kyle]

The Tornado Emergencies have always been accompanied by confirmed, spotter reported large tornadoes that are being witnessed doing significant damage heading to a densely populated area. They are never done based only on the radar presentation. Again, goes back to the downfall of the radar presentation not being able to see exactly what is going on at the surface.

For several years during the last half of the 1950s, I was the weather specialist for the Oklahoman and spent quite a bit of time with a distant cousin named Tom Kyle who headed the weather bureau station at Will Rogers Field. He's the person who told me about the hook echo, and also the person who issued the world's very first official tornado warning (after the folk out at Tinker discovered, back in 1945, the conditions necessary for a twister to form).

In those days, Tom would NEVER issue a warning or even a watch (though that term hadn't yet come into use) based purely on radar returns, for exactly the reason you mention. The storm had to be confirmed by a reliable spotter as being on the ground before any warning came from the bureau. He did, of course, use the radar return to direct spotters into the most likely areas. Ham radio operators formed the backbone of his spotting system; all were volunteers, with mobile stations in their cars, and when a storm threatened they would go into action. On at least one occasion (in 1958 on my day off; I was an active ham at the time) I operated the base station, located in the bureau's offices atop a hangar at the original Will Rogers location on the west side of the highway, while mobile spotters took a camera crew from NWS on a search for possible funnels. Looking back it was all very primitive, but even so much better than the earlier times when a storm would drop from the sky with no warning at all...

[bombermwc]

Yes...that's what we're talking about. The houses in Moore that got hit by that tornado were scraped clean, down to the foundation. There was no safe place inside them.

At the risk of sounding brash, that was also localized to basically one neighborhood in Moore as well. MOST homes in the path did not have the same experience. So in Gary's eyes and statements, everyone was going to die, that's where my problem was. I knew some folks that lived in that very neighborhood...and it did NOT wipe the foundations clean. She was right in the middle of the path in her closet. She held onto her closet rack as her feet were sucked into the air. Her closet remained intact as the rest of the house crumbled around it. He lived thank you very much. As a survivor of the storm, she would tell you that she doesn't appreciate his comments either. All it does is monger fear and helps ZERO %. Unless you lived directly in the path, you can't really speak to it. Even though I was in MWC at the time, i can't compare my experience to that of hers either. It was lifting by the time it hit MWC and was a full 2 scales lower. And that still left plenty damage.

Less here - it's a freaking tornado, F0 to F whatever, you need to be careful and pay attention. Straight line winds, microbursts, downdrafts, etc....they all can do plenty damage. Just because the house didn't come off the foundation didn't meant it wasn't a total loss either. The MWC mostly were protected as their house was lifted and slammed back down at an angle. My aunt had part of someone's roof end up in her roof. My sister, who was at Rose State at the time, had a car that look like it was plastered with an insulation gun.

There's plenty enough devestation going on in a storm like this. My point is, why make it worse by telling people they are going to die? It serves no purpose but to scare them. So the tornado is headed to your house, you have no damned underground place to go like 99% of us out there, and Gary tells you that you're going to die. Personally, I would tell him to go screw himself and I'll take my chances in the closet.

Only 48 people died on May 3rd. How many thousands in the path were NOT undergound?

[TaoMaas]

My point is, why make it worse by telling people they are going to die? It serves no purpose but to scare them.

Well that's just it....did it make it worse? You have one story. There were many, many others that day who said that the "get underground" warning made all the difference to their survival. Have we had a worse tornado before or since? If you're not going to give that kind of warning in an F5, then when? Do you lie to the people and tell them not to worry? LOL

[Jersey Boss]

Maybe they should do a weather version of this that seemed to work so well......

Not, as it was shown to be manipulated.

[Questor]

So I guess you all must also be in favor of blowing the sirens across all 650 square miles of the city when a tornado clips part of Moore?

[TaoMaas]

So I guess you all must also be in favor of blowing the sirens across all 650 square miles of the city when a tornado clips part of Moore?

After it clips Moore? No.
Prior to the tornado heading into the city when it's uncertain exactly what course it'll take through town? Yes...most definitely.

[Questor]

A tornado that has been traveling up the turnpike on a straight path from Chickasha to Moore has almost zero chance of turning due north or NW and hitting the area north and west of Lake Hefner. That would be a one in a million storm. Yet we still blow the sirens for that area when Moore is being hit every single time, even though it's just not realistic. It makes sense to me that this would be the prevailing opinion though, it kind of goes hand in hand with not wanting to change the way storm announcements are done in any way. There's sort of a prevailing "government/authority knows best and needs to protect you" mentality in this state. I give up, everything is fine and the way we've been doing business for 50 years is clearly the answer. No need to account for a complete technological and media revolution since then.

[bornhere]

The city's siren system was replaced top to bottom eight or nine years ago. Maybe someone knows whether the sirens can be activated by sections, or if it was designed to be 'all or nothing.'

Even if they were to be activated by sections, I don't know who would make the decision about which ones are turned on and which ones aren't.

[venture]

A tornado that has been traveling up the turnpike on a straight path from Chickasha to Moore has almost zero chance of turning due north or NW and hitting the area north and west of Lake Hefner. That would be a one in a million storm. Yet we still blow the sirens for that area when Moore is being hit every single time, even though it's just not realistic. It makes sense to me that this would be the prevailing opinion though, it kind of goes hand in hand with not wanting to change the way storm announcements are done in any way. There's sort of a prevailing "government/authority knows best and needs to protect you" mentality in this state. I give up, everything is fine and the way we've been doing business for 50 years is clearly the answer. No need to account for a complete technological and media revolution since then.

Seems like a sour grapes response, but I'll comment on it regardless. There are many times when a storm's movement can be very erratic. You are right that typically a storm heading for Moore likely won't swing back and head to NW OK. However, there are times when you can get a storm that develops a left split and that cell could intensify. Of course the original storm has a higher chance of right turning and heading further East or SE.

If the concern is local EMs blowing the sirens for too much of their city, that will probably change more and more. Norman did a completely upgrade and deployed an entirely new siren system over the winter. They have the ability to only warn sections of the city based on storm movement and the warning polygon from the NWS. The main reason for this is to avoid situations like you describe. Some people may not realize, but Norman city limits go from the Canadian River to the west all to way to almost the Pottawatomie County line to the east. It includes all of Lake Thunderbird and every place in between. That's 178 square miles of land that Norman itself is responsible for (48th largest city in the US by land area).

So a lot of your assumptions aren't correct as there are changes in the works to make warnings more accurate and specific for areas, especially when it comes to the outdoor warning systems.

[TaoMaas]

There's sort of a prevailing "government/authority knows best and needs to protect you" mentality in this state.

You're right. The NWS should just shut the h*ll up and let people go out and see for themselves if the weather warrants taking precautions.

[Questor]

I'm not sure which assumptions aren't correct. OKC has had the ability to sound sirens in sections for something like 10 years now but I don't believe they have ever once used that capability. It's great that Norman has added that ability as well... hope they decide to actually use it some day. I don't understand why they wouldn't... sure storms are unpredictable, but I can think of so many times where we had a very isolated, single storm that really had no chance of going anywhere but where it was headed and yet we still sounded the sirens for the entire city. I guess my fear is that we are constantly 'crying wolf' by doing what we do and it makes people numb to the sirens. Everyone worries about the opposite problem, but no one ever talks about the crying wolf problem. You'll have to forgive my sour grapes response. It's hard to believe but I tend to get irritated after getting crapped on from all sides for ten posts. The additional warning discussion that devolved into terrorist threat level examples and all that is a great example. The military has employed five levels of "Threat Cons" (that describe anti-terror/anti-threat base fortification levels) for years that have worked very well, do not cause confusion, and are very clear in the type of response to be evoked with each new level. I understand the desire to leave well enough alone but the response I got from most on this site, that folks just aren't smart enough to deal with one new level, is just a really bad argument since the military's system proves otherwise. I think the real argument is over not making things overly complex and making sure that warnings are clear and concise, which I totally agree with and do not think that adding an additional level of warning would violate that thought process. In fact I think that what we have today is already convoluted. We only have watches and warnings that go out to the general public yet NWS routinely has a list of their own nomenclature that they use that means a lot more to meteorologists and storm chasers. The lay person unfortunately is lost as it is like trying to decipher the words of Allen Greenspan and all we are left with is "keep an eye out" or "OMGOMGOMGOMGOMG!" So all I'm really saying is that I think the problem is already there and that we should do something to clarify things, that's all. If folks don't agree with that that's fine. Not so much yours but I viewed the other guys response as so flippant as to be insulting. Everybody has different ideas, people disagree, that's fine, I just found the responses overly negative and childish. Sorry if I responded in kind. I suppose that's just the way it is on message boards.

[Joe Kimball]

Yes, they announced the siren's selective capabilities in The Oklahoman back then, as well as their abilities to sound different tones as well as broadcast speech. They're really gigantic speakers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvjkxVZfyY8

[Questor]

Yes, they announced the siren's selective capabilities in The Oklahoman back then, as well as their abilities to sound different tones as well as broadcast speech. They're really gigantic speakers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvjkxVZfyY8

That's a great example. I'm all for technological innovation. So I think it's a great thing that these sirens can blow for selective areas, can generate all sorts of different tones, and can even act as a loudspeaker. These are great capabilities. Why aren't we using them?

That's really my only point when it comes to stuff like this. If we know more about storms now, then why don't we try to convey more information about them? If we have better technology today that can deliver differentiating alert levels, then why don't we use them?

I mean at the end of the day I'm already doing that for me. I have mobile devices and radios that have specific SAME codes set in them. I know how to get to websites that have real time radar data and can generate storm tracks. I know what frequency the storm chaser's WeatherNet is broadcast on. I can get the information I want, and it is way better than anything I have ever seen on TV. I don't understand why we wouldn't want to welcome our media to the 21st Century as well. I guess I'll shut up now.

[Questor]

duplicate

[venture]

I guess it just depends on how much more in depth you think we can possibly go. Tornado Warning is pretty clear...either a spotter reported tornado or storm exhibiting signs of strong rotation that could product any moment. Pretty clear cut. It has the "PDS"-like upscale wording of "Tornado Emergency" for when densely populated areas may get impacted. If a tornado is reported, by spotters, to be a large - descructive - wedge - whatever - tornado, then the wording gets passed along in the warning as well.

The current system already has multi-levels for what you are using as examples:

1 - Tornado Warning / Tornado Emergency
2 - Severe Thunderstorm Warning
3 - Significant Weather Advisory
4 - PDS Watches
5 - Standard Watches

Out of all of those, the Severe Thunderstorm Warning is really the only thing that comes to mind that could use some tweaks. Too often we get the warnings on a storm that will only provide gusts of 55-60 mph (58 mph is severe) with littler to no hail or anything else. At the end of the day, this doesn't really get any ones attention and could just continue to have people ignore the SVR warnings unless it is right on top of them.

[Larry OKC]

It used to be that a Tornado Warning meant that an actual tornado was spotted or indicated on radar. Now it seems to mean that conditions are favorable (that is what a Tornado Watch was for). When did it change?

[MikeOKC]

I guess it just depends on how much more in depth you think we can possibly go. Tornado Warning is pretty clear...either a spotter reported tornado or storm exhibiting signs of strong rotation that could product any moment. Pretty clear cut. It has the "PDS"-like upscale wording of "Tornado Emergency" for when densely populated areas may get impacted. If a tornado is reported, by spotters, to be a large - descructive - wedge - whatever - tornado, then the wording gets passed along in the warning as well.

The current system already has multi-levels for what you are using as examples:

1 - Tornado Warning / Tornado Emergency
2 - Severe Thunderstorm Warning
3 - Significant Weather Advisory
4 - PDS Watches
5 - Standard Watches

Out of all of those, the Severe Thunderstorm Warning is really the only thing that comes to mind that could use some tweaks. Too often we get the warnings on a storm that will only provide gusts of 55-60 mph (58 mph is severe) with littler to no hail or anything else. At the end of the day, this doesn't really get any ones attention and could just continue to have people ignore the SVR warnings unless it is right on top of them.

Good information, as always from you.

Question: What exactly does "PDS" stand for? I've been sitting here thinking and it seems like I remember Gary England saying it was "Particularly Dangerous Storm." Is that right or was he being colloquial?

[venture]

It used to be that a Tornado Warning meant that an actual tornado was spotted or indicated on radar. Now it seems to mean that conditions are favorable (that is what a Tornado Watch was for). When did it change?

I'm going to assume this is sarcasm since it is still done that way.

Good information, as always from you.

Question: What exactly does "PDS" stand for? I've been sitting here thinking and it seems like I remember Gary England saying it was "Particularly Dangerous Storm." Is that right or was he being colloquial?

PDS = Particularly Dangerous Situation

SPC provides this info on it in their FAQ:

2.7 I noticed the wording "THIS IS A PARTICULARLY DANGEROUS SITUATION" in some of your watches. What does this mean? What is the criteria for a PDS watch?

The "particularly dangerous situation" wording is used in rare situations when long-lived, strong and violent tornadoes are possible. This enhanced wording may also accompany severe thunderstorm watches for exceptionally intense and well organized convective wind storms. PDS watches are issued, when in the opinion of the forecaster, the likelihood of significant events is boosted by very volatile atmospheric conditions. Usually this decision is based on a number of atmospheric clues and parameters, so the decision to issue a PDS watch is subjective. There is no hard threshold or criteria. In high risk outlooks PDS watches are issued most often.

[jn1780]

This is basically the "airplane vs car" argument or in this case "car vs house" argument. Assuming your house is a solid structure bolted to a foundation, 95% of the time your safer in the center part of your house than fleeing from the tornado in your car if you don't have a storm shelter. May 3rd was rare in that people in south Oklahoma City had the opportunity to drive away because that tornado was on the ground for a long time before reaching the southern parts of the metro.

I guess those people who are worried about <5% or live in a mobile home need to build a storm shelter, find a friend with one, or take the day off and flee west to the other side of the dry line before the storms fire. LOL

[Larry OKC]

I'm going to assume this is sarcasm since it is still done that way

Wasn't being sarcastic at all. Have seen it several times this year on all 3 of the local stations. After putting up the graphic with the Tornado WARNING, often the weather person will say something to the effect that "a tornado has NOT been sighted/confirmed/touched down and one is NOT indicated on radar" just that it could happen.

Again, it was my understanding that is what a Tornado WATCH was for..."conditions are favorable" it could happen.

A Tornado WARNING meant that one has touched down/spotted/confirmed and/or verified by radar.

They have been doing the same with other "warnings" (like flash flood), no flash flood has happened just a pretty good chance of it (which means it should be a "watch")

[bombermwc]

AMEN Larry. They throw out Tornado Warning so often now, it almost doesn't mean anything. Back when it meant there actaully was a tornado, it meant something. Now as soon as the clouds start spinning, out pops a warning. It's yet another "boy who cried wolf" case coming up. All this crap started after May 3rd. It's like after that, all weathermen decided that the world had to change and every storm had to be 10 times worse than they even were before then. The more technology they throw at things, the more they realize they don't know jack crap still so they make everything into a bigger deal than it is.

We have plenty lead time on things now, there really does need to be a middle ground between a watch and a warning. Throw something in there that says, "hey, conditions are favorable for a tornado right here in this area so watch out. We haven't seen one come down yet, but there's a high chance one might happen so go ahead and get ready for it". That way when one does come down, you know it's for real. I wont say I ignore tornado warnings anymore because that's not true (and would be very stupid if I did), but they definitely don't hold the same importance they once did....and it's the fault of the weathermen for that.

I will say, you have to place blame on ALL fronts as well. The National Weather Service is where these warnings are issued from, not the TV stations. The stations just report (and dramatise) the situation. It's very rare that you'll see them discover something before the NWS on radar. Remember the NWS has the better toys, they just don't have the foot soldiers.

[venture]

Okay this is a bit off course now. Larry from your post I started to understand what you meant, a bit. From what I've observed, I have seen the TV STATIONS come out and say "Tornado Warning" when one of their spotters have either seen a brief tornado or when they think a tornado could form at any time based on the radar presentation. I've never seen the NWS just toss them out with out any verifiable indicators - at least from the Norman office. I won't get into Flash Flood right now because those can be very subjective to specific areas of a city/county based on previous flood history and the amount of estimated precip that has fallen. There are plenty of times when a Flash Flood warning can be put up for Cleveland County, but it really only is noticed in a few parts of Norman that turn into a lake after a sprinkle.

To Bomber's comments - I agree local media has gone a bit crazy lately. It is a mass ratings drive that spurs a lot of it though. We already have a middle ground between watch and warning, it is called a "Severe Weather Statement" or "Special Weather Statement". Both of these are used, the 2nd one is usually broadcast with the language "Significant Weather Advisory" that is meant to alert counties when a storm is getting stronger but not yet severe. The local stations relay this as "Heavy Thunderstorm" on their maps.

I will disagree with the point that you can place any blame on the NWS for this. Are their warnings that shouldn't be issued? Perhaps, but they don't pull the trigger unless that forecaster feels that a storm are reached a threshold that requires warning. I also completely disagree with the point on "they just don't have the foot soldiers". The NWS has more eyes on the ground than all the local media combined. The vast network of Skywarn and amateur radio operators that relay information back to the Norman NWS is substantial. That is why you can watch a radar presentation show very strong signs of rotation or large hail, and no warning comes out because they have eyes on the ground near that storm and are waiting for ground verification before they pull the trigger. Does this mean that local TV stations don't see something before the NWS/Skywarn team? Not at all. Many cases of a media chaser catching a brief tornado after being in the right place at the right time.

[oneforone]

I don't the storms should be used as a last minute warning like many people think it should be. If anything a siren activation should mean, go to an information source that will advise you on weather and other alerts. If it does not effect you, go back to whatever your doing. That is exactly what I do. Most of us live in work in somewhat sound proof structures where a storm siren sounds like somebody running the vacuum in the next room. The sirens should not be used for severe weather only they should be used for any kind of emergency. Gas leak, Chemical Spill, explosives attack, mad gunman on the loose, godzilla invading the city, etc. etc.