Tulsa Remote

[Swake]

Tulsa Remote put out numbers today that show how the program is working.

Tulsa Remote only accepts 3% of applicants
Since 2019 2,165 people have moved to Tulsa as part of the program
1,852 of those live in the city today
Of the people that have completed their year of Tulsa Remote, 76% still reside in Tulsa
Tulsa Remote has generated more than $300 million in direct employment income

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/tu...0e105753b.html
https://landing.tulsaremote.com/economic-impact-report

[Jake]

Tulsa Remote put out numbers today that show how the program is working.

Tulsa Remote only accepts 3% of applicants
Since 2019 2,165 people have moved to Tulsa as part of the program
1,852 of those live in the city today
Of the people that have completed their year of Tulsa Remote, 76% still reside in Tulsa
Tulsa Remote has generated more than $300 million in direct employment income

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/tu...0e105753b.html
https://landing.tulsaremote.com/economic-impact-report

But OKCTalk said this hasn't been successful and it's embarrassing for Tulsa to have to bribe people to live there.

[UrbanistPoke]

But OKCTalk said this hasn't been successful and it's embarrassing for Tulsa to have to bribe people to live there.

Oh I'm sure there's going to be some hurt feelings with this one haha.

Some other interesting stats about Tulsa Remote is the average salary of people that have relocated is over $100,000. Their planned relocations per year are now going to be at minimum goal of 1,000 people. Last year they had over 30,000 people apply. Some of this will slow down I bet with more people being required to go back to hybrid or in office but Tulsa Remote started prior to COVID and will survive even with the push to go back to the office. This is essentially as valuable as getting a HQ relocation every year with that type of talent and income. Almost 90% of the people who have stayed live within 5-miles of downtown Tulsa too.

With Tulsa Remote, Panasonic, Enel, etc. the growth rate is really going to accelerate in the next decade. Claremore and Pryor could easily be the size of Owasso or bigger in the next 10 years and those two will likely merge more together along the Highway 20 corridor. Wagoner County will benefit off Port of Inola growth, etc. in addition to Inola/412 corridor too which would bring Muskogee much closer into suburban growth areas - Coweta is growing a lot with spillage over from land becoming more limited in BA. If Muskogee, Mayes, and Washington Counties get added into the MSA (which I'd be pretty shocked if at least Mayes and Muskogee don't) the MSA could easily be pushing 1.3 million to 1.5 million next Census. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Oklahoma isn't able to pick up an additional House seat next time around.

Overall, it's all good for Oklahoma in general. That type of population, job, income growth in Tulsa will supplement good demographic growth in OKC MSA and the booming NWA area. Will make this region a prime area to start picking off tech and other types of companies growing increasingly frustrated with issues in places like Austin, Chicago, Denver, etc. I don't know if we'll ever be prime targets for California relocations - focus should be on companies started in places like Austin/Denver that are being priced out or just getting tired of the growing pains of those areas and either want to open additional offices or just relocate.

[Rover]

What is it with all the Tulsa people on here who are so defensive and need to keep posting on the OKC board?

Getting 500 people or so a year by paying them to move there isn't an overwhelming endorsement of how attractive Tulsa is. IF you insist on comparing, OKC had lots more move-ins WITHOUT paying.

[shavethewhales]

I'm surprised the numbers are so good. I guess it makes sense that it works to some level because the program has chugged along instead of being cut early on like I thought it would be. I actually do meet a lot of people that are in the program, but most of them don't plan on staying here more than 5 years - if that. The type of people who take this kind of offer up don't plan on staying in any one place forever. They are an interesting sort though, and of course there's all sorts of intrinsic benefits to the community and tax base from having them here.

I don't think the long term effect will be measured by how many of these people stay in the area long term, but rather by how they blaze the trail for others and make the area more appealing and well known in general.

[Pete]

^

But most people that move anywhere, especially those younger, think in terms of not staying long-term.

Then after a few years, it starts to feel like home and the place grows on them.

[UrbanistPoke]

What is it with all the Tulsa people on here who are so defensive and need to keep posting on the OKC board?

Getting 500 people or so a year by paying them to move there isn't an overwhelming endorsement of how attractive Tulsa is. IF you insist on comparing, OKC had lots more move-ins WITHOUT paying.

Ever heard of things like sign-on or relocation bonuses? Like $10k is nothing, especially if most of the salaries are people in excess of $100k. Relocation bonuses don't exist for remote workers and it's actually a pretty smart thing for Tulsa to offer it. Why shouldn't the entire State of Oklahoma offer it to people? If there's this much success in Tulsa think what it could do for the entire state of offering highly skilled people relocation bonuses for remote work. Seems kind of dumb to keep it limited to just GKFF in Tulsa doing it, but hey stay salty. I've had several sign-on bonuses in excess of $25k so $10k is not that big of a motivator (and I'm in the range of pay of what many Tulsa Remoters are making), it's a nice thing to pay for your moving costs and that's about it. The people who moved here didn't do it because it was a life changing amount, they had to want to move to Tulsa in the first place and this just helped win them over to do it.

[UrbanistPoke]

I'm surprised the numbers are so good. I guess it makes sense that it works to some level because the program has chugged along instead of being cut early on like I thought it would be. I actually do meet a lot of people that are in the program, but most of them don't plan on staying here more than 5 years - if that. The type of people who take this kind of offer up don't plan on staying in any one place forever. They are an interesting sort though, and of course there's all sorts of intrinsic benefits to the community and tax base from having them here.

I don't think the long term effect will be measured by how many of these people stay in the area long term, but rather by how they blaze the trail for others and make the area more appealing and well known in general.

Second what Pete said. Lots of people probably thought it would be a fun adventure then they get here and get connected in with the community - they then buy a house, many of them have partners too so kids, etc. and after a few years they have no reason to leave anymore.

One thing Tulsa Remote has done is build out an ecosystem to make sure people get involved with the community and connect with each other. That has helped the retention rate. 36 Degrees N offers a gathering space for them, they host events all the time (bike rides, social events, etc.), they work a lot with TYPROS, chamber, etc. and even if the original plan was to leave after 3-5 years most haven't. Home ownership amongst the group is very high too and they've been pushing that too knowing that if they buy a house in Tulsa they probably aren't leaving anytime soon.

[Swake]

This has cost ~$20 million to bring in 2,000 jobs that have an average pay of $150,937 a year.

Now compare that to the amount of money going to companies like Amazon, Enel and Panasonic to get them to come here for a similar number of jobs that have average pay less than half of what Tulsa Remote does. Which is more cost effective?

Panasonic is being given $698 million in incentives for 3,500 jobs that will average $52,477 in pay.
Tulsa Remote spent $22 million to bring in 1,852 jobs that average $150,937 in pay.

[Jake]

Tulsa needs its version of MAPS. I know they've had Vision Tulsa or whatever but nothing I've seen the size and scope that OKC has completed with MAPS that have led to complete transformative projects. Hopefully, with the city learning that they can actually put water in the river to make it look nice, they've turned the corner a bit. In the meantime, the GKFF has done a lot in the city to try and change things for the better.

Tulsa probably won't ever be able to match OKC's recent growth and there are a lot of things (Tinker alone is something Tulsa could never recreate) that give it several advantages, but I'm hopeful the Tulsa metro is on an upward trajectory and momentum will build. I like the little rivalry between the cities and I think it could hopefully spur each city to try and up their games a bit so to speak.

[Pete]

No matter your opinion, if you can just get someone to Tulsa for a couple of years they are going to find a ton to like.

It's pretty, Gathering Place is world-class, they have a lot of the same new urbanism as OKC and most other American cities, plenty of good restaurants and bars... Modern times have created a situation where any medium-sized city has pretty much the same amenities as anywhere else and what you lack in stores (which usually isn't much) you can easily get online. Love big league sports and the biggest concerts? Want a beach or the slopes? These are good opportunities for a quick trip, something easy to do because life is easy here and you have more disposable income.

And on top of all this, no matter where you come from the cost of living and thus the quality of life is about as good as it gets.


I will use myself as an example. I grew up here but moved to Southern California in my late 20s. I had no idea how long I'd stay but I would have never thought it would be 25 years, which it turned out to be.

By that time, even though I loved OKC it had become increasingly foreign to me. Just due to the big change in my perspective, every time I stepped off the plane Oklahoma seemed flatter and slower than just the time before. When did everyone get that accent?

It was gut-wrenching for me to leave California. Anybody who loves to talk about its demise is usually just trying to feel better about where they live now. Anyone who has lived there -- not visited but lived for at least a few years -- completely understands despite the downside of traffic and extreme expense. I could write a book about how much I loved the place and the thousands of amazing experiences I had there.

I had a window due to work and having been in the same house for 13 years (long enough to be any one place) that I realized it was now or never. It still took me a few years to pull the trigger and I did so with great angst. Upon my return, I was happy to be here but it was a loooong adjustment period. Like five years I would say, and I had already lived here for 25 previously.

Now, I'm adjusted and settled with no immediate plans to leave. Maybe a summer home up north would be nice.


My point is that I love OKC more than anyone, had grown up here, and it was still very, very hard to leave where I was and come back. And it still took about half a decade before I stopped wondering if I might just go back to Cali. I still may, but no time soon. And I imagine if I did, I would have the same doubts I had when I moved back to OKC.

Yes, people move cities more than they used to. But much, much more commonly, they stay put once they get settled.

[GoGators]

Oh I'm sure there's going to be some hurt feelings with this one haha.

Some other interesting stats about Tulsa Remote is the average salary of people that have relocated is over $100,000. Their planned relocations per year are now going to be at minimum goal of 1,000 people. Last year they had over 30,000 people apply. Some of this will slow down I bet with more people being required to go back to hybrid or in office but Tulsa Remote started prior to COVID and will survive even with the push to go back to the office. This is essentially as valuable as getting a HQ relocation every year with that type of talent and income. Almost 90% of the people who have stayed live within 5-miles of downtown Tulsa too.

With Tulsa Remote, Panasonic, Enel, etc. the growth rate is really going to accelerate in the next decade. Claremore and Pryor could easily be the size of Owasso or bigger in the next 10 years and those two will likely merge more together along the Highway 20 corridor. Wagoner County will benefit off Port of Inola growth, etc. in addition to Inola/412 corridor too which would bring Muskogee much closer into suburban growth areas - Coweta is growing a lot with spillage over from land becoming more limited in BA. If Muskogee, Mayes, and Washington Counties get added into the MSA (which I'd be pretty shocked if at least Mayes and Muskogee don't) the MSA could easily be pushing 1.3 million to 1.5 million next Census. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Oklahoma isn't able to pick up an additional House seat next time around.

Overall, it's all good for Oklahoma in general. That type of population, job, income growth in Tulsa will supplement good demographic growth in OKC MSA and the booming NWA area. Will make this region a prime area to start picking off tech and other types of companies growing increasingly frustrated with issues in places like Austin, Chicago, Denver, etc. I don't know if we'll ever be prime targets for California relocations - focus should be on companies started in places like Austin/Denver that are being priced out or just getting tired of the growing pains of those areas and either want to open additional offices or just relocate.

Very interesting way to describe the program. I have not thought about it in those terms before. You are correct that an HQ relocation announcement by a company that brings 1,000 jobs with an average salary over 100k would be a major announcement in Tulsa or OKC. The fact that this program is planning to do this every year is impressive.

Plus, I'm sure any corporate relocation that brings 1,000 jobs at $100k+ salary would be given well more than $10,000,000 in incentives/tax breaks to do so.

[UrbanistPoke]

Tulsa needs its version of MAPS. I know they've had Vision Tulsa or whatever but nothing I've seen the size and scope that OKC has completed with MAPS that have led to complete transformative projects. Hopefully, with the city learning that they can actually put water in the river to make it look nice, they've turned the corner a bit. In the meantime, the GKFF has done a lot in the city to try and change things for the better.

Tulsa probably won't ever be able to match OKC's recent growth and there are a lot of things (Tinker alone is something Tulsa could never recreate) that give it several advantages, but I'm hopeful the Tulsa metro is on an upward trajectory and momentum will build. I like the little rivalry between the cities and I think it could hopefully spur each city to try and up their games a bit so to speak.

State of Oklahoma employees 30,000 in OKC MSA and Tinker employees 26,000. According to the regional chamber #s. That is the big difference between OKC and Tulsa – depending on your multiplier factor and household size those jobs and jobs they support equals about 400,000 people in the OKC MSA.
Other biggest employment is University of Oklahoma and associated healthcare system (15,000-20,000).

OSU's Medical Center/VA Center growth in Tulsa planned over the next 10 years is also something being overlooked by many in the state. I can see them being just as big as OU Medical in OKC. OU Medical is expanding in Tulsa as well with a new cancer center, etc.

Tulsa MSA #s will look very different in 10 years. Like I had said prior, bringing in a couple of counties like Mayes and Muskogee will make a difference. Between Washington, Mayes, Muskogee, and Cherokee you're excluding nearly 100,000 people out of the MSA and/or CSA that let's be honest probably everyone here thinks are included in the MSA and aren't (I can go into a lengthy discussion about Census BS that excludes rural job centers from MSAs because of dumb metrics but won't). The gap between the OKC area and Tulsa is not as large as many people think - there's really maybe a less than 150,000-200,000 population difference between the two regions (frankly Shawnee should be in OKC’s MSA stats as well). Both OKC and Tulsa have been overlooked for many years and discounted for size, etc. when they shouldn't have been.

In the next 10-20 years this entire region between OKC - TUL - NWA will probably be looked at more like the Research Triangle area in NC and grow more in sync together. It's not really that much farther between OKC to NWA than to go from northern Austin to south San Antonio and same with places like Denver's front range area or Research Triangle in NC. We're getting closer to hitting critical mass for the overall area that it will benefit every MSA and could push growth even faster between all areas. If you look back at stats of where Austin-San Antonio, Denver/Front Range, Research Triangle really started to take off it’s not that far off from where this region is at and we’ve got the proximity benefits of the Texas Triangle as well. The overall population between OKC - TUL - NWA is nearly 3.5 million (4 million if you throw in Joplin & Ft Smith). There's a reason the Thunder is successful, BOK Center was a top ticket seller, etc. because there's a lot of people that live in this area with disposable income and it's very easy to drive from OKC to Tulsa or Tulsa to NWA, etc. within 90 minutes. Can't say that about Austin, you'd be lucky to get 20 miles in 90 minutes many times of day.

[Rover]

Very interesting way to describe the program. I have not thought about it in those terms before. You are correct that an HQ relocation announcement by a company that brings 1,000 jobs with an average salary over 100k would be a major announcement in Tulsa or OKC. The fact that this program is planning to do this every year is impressive.

Plus, I'm sure any corporate relocation that brings 1,000 jobs at $100k+ salary would be given well more than $10,000,000 in incentives/tax breaks to do so.

Usually a corp relocation involves the building of something tangible.... a factory, an office, etc. Not always, but usually. That investment doesn't just up and move even if some of the jobs do. And most incentives have at least the promise of the company growing. And hopefully these investments and the corporate move in also brings the demand for additional support and growing of local businesses and move ins that provide them products and services. So comparing the two types of incentives is apples to oranges. The work from remote doesn't involve building anything permanent or making a large investment. Just go buy an existing house and set up shop. OK needs investments not just people.

This isn't to say that what Tulsa is doing is wrong, just that it isn't the long term solution, in my opinion. I'm way more optimistic about things like the solar plant that brings huge investments and a whole new industry, as well as local jobs.

[UrbanistPoke]

This has cost ~$20 million to bring in 2,000 jobs that have an average pay of $150,937 a year.

Now compare that to the amount of money going to companies like Amazon, Enel and Panasonic to get them to come here for a similar number of jobs that have average pay less than half of what Tulsa Remote does. Which is more cost effective?

Panasonic is being given $698 million in incentives for 3,500 jobs that will average $52,477 in pay.
Tulsa Remote spent $22 million to bring in 1,852 jobs that average $150,937 in pay.

Just goes to show how backwards economic incentives have become - especially for stuff like Amazon that go to distribution centers they would HAVE to build with or without these in order to serve their delivery/business model. If OKC and Tulsa had said yeah no thanks Amazon you can do it on your own, they would have.

[UrbanistPoke]

Usually a corp relocation involves the building of something tangible.... a factory, an office, etc. Not always, but usually. That investment doesn't just up and move even if some of the jobs do. And most incentives have at least the promise of the company growing. And hopefully these investments and the corporate move in also brings the demand for additional support and growing of local businesses and move ins that provide them products and services. So comparing the two types of incentives is apples to oranges. The work from remote doesn't involve building anything permanent or making a large investment. Just go buy an existing house and set up shop. OK needs investments not just people.

This isn't to say that what Tulsa is doing is wrong, just that it isn't the long term solution, in my opinion. I'm way more optimistic about things like the solar plant that brings huge investments and a whole new industry, as well as local jobs.

The way places like Portland, Austin, Nashville, etc. became the growth engines they are now is because they were able to demonstrate to companies people would and were moving there. Companies followed. Tulsa leadership has studied that model and is what Tulsa Remote is proving up. They are trying to solve concerns someone like Google, etc. would have of making those tangible investments which aren't small and saying Tulsa Remote can recruit X amount of engineers a year and we have X amount of engineers applying - if you build an office here you can fill any/all positions you open. You have to start somewhere.

[Pete]

^

Relocations happen for cost-savings but a city has to be a place the decision-makers and their most important employees want to live.

Also, they need a strong talent pool depending on the business they are in.

[Swake]

The way places like Portland, Austin, Nashville, etc. became the growth engines they are now is because they were able to demonstrate to companies people would and were moving there. Companies followed. Tulsa leadership has studied that model and is what Tulsa Remote is proving up. They are trying to solve concerns someone like Google, etc. would have of making those tangible investments which aren't small and saying Tulsa Remote can recruit X amount of engineers a year and we have X amount of engineers applying - if you build an office here you can fill any/all positions you open. You have to start somewhere.

This is why the Holberton School downtown is just as big a deal as Tulsa Remote. And the new OU Polytechnic Institute could be even bigger.

[Just the facts]

This has cost ~$20 million to bring in 2,000 jobs that have an average pay of $150,937 a year.

Now compare that to the amount of money going to companies like Amazon, Enel and Panasonic to get them to come here for a similar number of jobs that have average pay less than half of what Tulsa Remote does. Which is more cost effective?

Panasonic is being given $698 million in incentives for 3,500 jobs that will average $52,477 in pay.
Tulsa Remote spent $22 million to bring in 1,852 jobs that average $150,937 in pay.

100%. Invest in people and business will take care of itself. That was the orginal idea behind MAPS.

[Rover]

100%. Invest in people and business will take care of itself. That was the orginal idea behind MAPS.

No it wasn't. Maps built projects. Those hard assets added valuable assets to the city and created a quality of life by doing the things you so detest... public projects... arena, ballpark, canal, library. Infrastructure is important.

Ultimately it's all about people. But hard investments in assets enhance the ability to create real economies. Paying people to come here but are work to growing to grow companies based elsewhere isn't optimum. We need to be building and supporting companies with hard assets HERE. Otherwise, we are just going to be a huge bedroom exexexurb of somewhere else. A cheap bedroom state.

[Swake]

Tulsa needs its version of MAPS. I know they've had Vision Tulsa or whatever but nothing I've seen the size and scope that OKC has completed with MAPS that have led to complete transformative projects. Hopefully, with the city learning that they can actually put water in the river to make it look nice, they've turned the corner a bit. In the meantime, the GKFF has done a lot in the city to try and change things for the better.

Tulsa probably won't ever be able to match OKC's recent growth and there are a lot of things (Tinker alone is something Tulsa could never recreate) that give it several advantages, but I'm hopeful the Tulsa metro is on an upward trajectory and momentum will build. I like the little rivalry between the cities and I think it could hopefully spur each city to try and up their games a bit so to speak.

Tulsa is voting on "Improve Our Tulsa" on August 8th. The $814 million proposal is the second renewal of what was called Vision 2025.

The highlights are:
$300 million for streets
$95 million for housing
$80 million for a refurb of the Performing Arts Center
$50 million for a new headquarters for the police and fire departments. which will allow the city to tear down the current complex and build a new convention center hotel on the site similar to what the Omni is in OKC
$32 million for parks
$10 in increased matching funds for the new Gilcrease Museum bringing total funding to $130 million for the new building

https://www.cityoftulsa.org/media/21...nd-spanish.pdf

[shavethewhales]

^Yup, not a lot of "flashy" projects, but a lot of major impact. The PAC is a big deal for us and puts on so much great stuff. It desperately needs more attention to bring it into this era. Gilcrease is an incredibly important institution and can't be allowed to end up an empty shell like OKPOP. Our convention center is a joke - you literally have to walk around a police station/jail to get to it. It's nice on the inside, but the surroundings are very sketch and are a major turn off. Building a new police HQ is a major need in any case. Things like the new low-barrier homeless shelter and streets are important too and have a big impact on the city.

In addition to all that, don't forget that next year we open a swanky new pedestrian bridge over the Arkansas river with a new white water flume and a low water damn that turns the river into a recreational lake essentially.

[GoGators]

No it wasn't. Maps built projects. Those hard assets added valuable assets to the city and created a quality of life by doing the things you so detest... public projects... arena, ballpark, canal, library. Infrastructure is important.

Ultimately it's all about people. But hard investments in assets enhance the ability to create real economies. Paying people to come here but are work to growing to grow companies based elsewhere isn't optimum. We need to be building and supporting companies with hard assets HERE. Otherwise, we are just going to be a huge bedroom exexexurb of somewhere else. A cheap bedroom state.

Every single person who steps inside of the Panasonic plant will be working to grow a company based elsewhere.

[UrbanistPoke]

Every single person who steps inside of the Panasonic plant will be working to grow a company based elsewhere.

Good point.

There is never any guarantees from local companies either even with large investments/facilities. We've all seen it happen with Chesapeake, Devon - Tulsa has dozens (CitGo, Dollar Thrifty, Williams almost being purchased, etc. etc.) CEOs can change their minds on a whim too. Best example of that was Dollar Thrifty after Hertz bought them, the new CEO lived in Southwest Florida and decided to move everyone there just to be closer for him. There's no guarantees ever and frankly multiple remote workers with hundreds of different employers is probably lower risk in that regard too.

[UrbanistPoke]

^Yup, not a lot of "flashy" projects, but a lot of major impact. The PAC is a big deal for us and puts on so much great stuff. It desperately needs more attention to bring it into this era. Gilcrease is an incredibly important institution and can't be allowed to end up an empty shell like OKPOP. Our convention center is a joke - you literally have to walk around a police station/jail to get to it. It's nice on the inside, but the surroundings are very sketch and are a major turn off. Building a new police HQ is a major need in any case. Things like the new low-barrier homeless shelter and streets are important too and have a big impact on the city.

In addition to all that, don't forget that next year we open a swanky new pedestrian bridge over the Arkansas river with a new white water flume and a low water damn that turns the river into a recreational lake essentially.

I'm still confused by the PAC money. It's not entirely clear if they eventually want to build a full new facility? Or if this is just to get them along for another 5-10 years or so or if this will get the PAC along for another 30 years. I wouldn't say no to any of it but it seems like a large chunk of money if it's truly just going to ADA, fixing some of the seating, stage, leaks, etc. just to tear everything down in 5-10 years.