in anticipation of $4+/gal gas...

[stdennis]

Ok i didn't know since you included the state capital. I figured if you included a stop there you should probably include a stop in Midwest City also.

So lets say we wanted to go to Dallas, Fort Worth or somewhere else on the national system. Would we have to go to OKC and then take Amtrak there and pay full price for an Amtrak ticket? Or would there be some sort of agreement to allow us to pay say 20 dollars for each trip to Dallas?

[Kerry]

We have been talking about this another thread: http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=25443

As federal budget deficits continue to climb there is a very good chance that in the next few years Amtrak will cease to exist in most places outside the Boston to D.C. corridor. My plan would be to take the state funds being used to subsidies Amtrak (about $2 million per year) and direct that money towards a state run system.

It would be up to surrounding states to build their own state-based systems. For example, Texas could build a system with an integration stop in Gainesville, TX. The line from Marietta would be extended giving Oklahoma access to the Texas system. Pricing in Texas would depend on Texas. This system is how rails system in Europe work where their individual countries are equivalent to our states. Of course there would be the possibility of have express non-stop service between OKC and Dallas (it just wouldn’t be high speed rail).

Also, A Kansas system could connect Bartlesville with Kansas City and Wichita to Enid. Non-Stop express trains could then run between Tulsa/Kansas City and OKC/Wichita. With a short layover in OKC you could travel from Wichita to Dallas or from OKC to Kansas City with a short stop in Tulsa (all faster than you can drive it, cheaper than you can fly, and no concern about the price of gasoline).

[stdennis]

What about Euro rail. Would you have a an equivalent in this system?

[BoulderSooner]

What if you could buy an annual rail pass for $200 per person (kids under 6 free) and it was unlimited rides, but instead of just Ft Worth it was this:

where do you get 200 a person annual pass? ... the tube in london costs 140 a month for 1 zone

1500+ a year for 1 zone

[Kerry]

where do you get 200 a person annual pass? ... the tube in london costs 140 a month for 1 zone

1500+ a year for 1 zone

The tube in London isn't running single-car DMUs 2 or 3 times a day per line. They are running thousands of trains every day and have 275 stations. They are also running through and under some of the most expensive real-estate in the world and some of the highest wages on the planet. A state-wide system in Oklahoma using existing track would cost pennies compared to the London Tube system. Take my Sayer to OKC route for example. We are talking 2 trains a day each way. Here is a picture of a single-car DMU (no way it would cost near as much to run these as it does to operate the London Tube). Heck, they could even be converted to run on CNG.



Here is a link to the early phase of a similar system in Oregon.
http://www.trainweb.org/mccann/wes.htm
and here
http://trimet.org/wes/

[Kerry]

I lived in Altus for a year. I would have been on this system every weekend. My mom lived there for 3 years and still goes back on occasion to visit friends. I would much prefer that she take the train than drive (and if you knew my mothers driving you would prefer she take the train as well).

[Bill Robertson]

I doubt we'll see a whole lot of difference.

When gas first hit $1 a gallon it was going to be the end of big cars and trucks, long trips, basically driving as we knew it. Nope!
$2 a gallon same thing. Nada!
$3 a gallon same thing but this time it was the end of the big, now popular, SUV. Nope again!
$4 a gallon. People will adjust. The vast majority just isn't ready to give up what they're used to.

[Kerry]

Soonersoftail - you are assuming wages will keep up with price increase. We are approaching record price on weak demand and the cost to secure foreign oil fields is costing us nearly a trillion dollars per year that we never see at the gas pump.

[ou48A]

I doubt we'll see a whole lot of difference.

When gas first hit $1 a gallon it was going to be the end of big cars and trucks, long trips, basically driving as we knew it. Nope!
$2 a gallon same thing. Nada!
$3 a gallon same thing but this time it was the end of the big, now popular, SUV. Nope again!
$4 a gallon. People will adjust. The vast majority just isn't ready to give up what they're used to.

According to this +$6 gasoline is possible.
If so the economy would take a huge hit.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/42683030

[ou48A]

T. Boone Pickens said today that 4Q world crude demand is forecast be 90 million barrels per day but that world production would be around 88 million barrels per day.

In recent weeks US demand for gasoline has dropped but this has been offset by an increased world demand and cuts in production.
The falling dollar is a major part of the price increases in the USA.

[Double Edge]

Saudi oil minister: High oil price unjustified

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia

Saudi Arabia's oil minister says the current high oil price is unjustifiable and that speculation over the future oil markets is mainly behind the hike.

Ali Naimi told reporters the lower demand for Saudi oil in March compared to February was a sign of an existing surplus on the global market.

He says large quantities of oil were available as commercial stockpile or surplus production in some oil-producing countries.

Naimi spoke after a meeting on Tuesday with Dutch Economic Affairs Minister Maxime Verhagen.

Saudi Arabia is the world's largest oil exporter, with the capacity to pump 12.5 million barrels.

In March, the kingdom cut daily output to 8.3 million, from 9.1 million barrels in February.

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/finan.../D9MMP3LO0.htm

[Double Edge]

Lead story on ABC news a couple of days ago, MIT study and other economists show high prices have little to do with supply, there is plenty, and more to do with speculation in the oil markets.

http://abcnews.go.com/watch/world-ne...prices-to-rise

OPEC is not fully producing because of lack of demand, refineries are running at 81% capacity, oil companies are raking in the money and speculators are driving up prices.

[Kerry]

Well - whatever the reason for high gas prices is a state-wide rail system would do great things for towns and cities all over the state. I was looking at some of the old downtowns in the communities I have put stations in and this would breath new life into them. I had no idea how cool and busy downtown Miami was.

BTW - it is called inflation. All the QE1 and QE2 money has to go somewhere. QE3 is rummored to be 4X bigger and will be here in July.

[soonerguru]

What if you could buy an annual rail pass for $200 per person (kids under 6 free) and it was unlimited rides, but instead of just Ft Worth it was this:

Kerry, this would be totally awesome. It would be great to take the train to SE Oklahoma, as long as there was a shuttle service to get you to cabins, etc. in the Beavers Bend area.

[jn1780]

Putting 100 billion dollars of printed "free" money into the system each month causes speculation, go figure.


The dollar is below the low it set in 2009. The next lowest low after that is the 2008 low which was set right before everthing collapsed.

[Larry OKC]

got to love it...over the past few years various "reasons" have been given for the rise in oil/gasoline prices

Demand is up
Demand is down
Supply is up
Supply is down
Dollar is strong
Dollar is weak
Inflation
Deflation
Strong economy
Weak economy
Too many tax breaks
Not enough tax breaks
Gasoline taxes too high
Gasoline taxes too low

[cameron_405]

got to love it...over the past few years various "reasons" have been given for the rise in oil/gasoline prices

Demand is up
Demand is down
Supply is up
Supply is down
Dollar is strong
Dollar is weak
Inflation
Deflation
Strong economy
Weak economy
Too many tax breaks
Not enough tax breaks
Gasoline taxes too high
Gasoline taxes too low

...from Active Trader Magazine -- October 2008

[BoulderSooner]

The tube in London isn't running single-car DMUs 2 or 3 times a day per line. They are running thousands of trains every day and have 275 stations. They are also running through and under some of the most expensive real-estate in the world and some of the highest wages on the planet. A state-wide system in Oklahoma using existing track would cost pennies compared to the London Tube system. Take my Sayer to OKC route for example. We are talking 2 trains a day each way. Here is a picture of a single-car DMU (no way it would cost near as much to run these as it does to operate the London Tube). Heck, they could even be converted to run on CNG.



Here is a link to the early phase of a similar system in Oregon.
http://www.trainweb.org/mccann/wes.htm
and here
http://trimet.org/wes/

a link from you site you posted http://trimet.org/fares/index.htm

almost a 1000 an annual pass

[Kerry]

Kerry, this would be totally awesome. It would be great to take the train to SE Oklahoma, as long as there was a shuttle service to get you to cabins, etc. in the Beavers Bend area.

It won't take long for tour groups to setup operations near train station to pick up passengers. In addition to shuttle operations at Beaver Bend I can envision open air buses offering tours of the Wichita mountains and Turner Falls, gambling shuttles out of Marietta and Norman, and even employers providing shuttle service. It would open up the whole state to everyone and many people would go place they probably would otherwise never go. Take Miami for example - I lived in Oklahoma for 5 years and never once thought of going there. If I had a rail pass I would have done it if for no other reason than it would have been free for me to do so. As it turns out I missed something pretty cool. Small communities in Oklahoma have lots of nice little downtowns and this could bring them back to life.

[shane453]

What if you could buy an annual rail pass for $200 per person (kids under 6 free) and it was unlimited rides

Sounds nice and it would be amazing to ride around Oklahoma on trains for 50 cents a day, but if that were the case also pigs would fly.

An unlimited OKC bus pass costs $600 annually. In Norman, CART is $240 annually. The Sooner Express, which is a busy route that is comparable to one tiny segment of a "state rail" with just a few trips each day, also costs $600 annually.

[Double Edge]

Sounds nice and it would be amazing to ride around Oklahoma on trains for 50 cents a day, but if that were the case also pigs would fly.

An unlimited OKC bus pass costs $600 annually. In Norman, CART is $240 annually. The Sooner Express, which is a busy route that is comparable to one tiny segment of a "state rail" with just a few trips each day, also costs $600 annually.

Those are both subsidised aren't they? I'm not against what Kerry is selling. We need mass trans but it won't be free.

[stdennis]

a link from you site you posted http://trimet.org/fares/index.htm

almost a 1000 an annual pass

That includes buses, light rail, commuter rail, and street car.

[Kerry]

I just threw the $200 figure out there because that was the dollar amount mentioned for 4 people going on the Heartland Flier. For all I know it could cost $500 a year. Keep this in mind though - it cost far more to operate a bus than it does to operate a single car DMU. CSX says its trains can move one ton of freight 500 miles on a single gallon of diesel fuel. You won't be doing that with a bus. Trains also cost far less to maintain than buses.

For example - Bus from OKC to Norman. 40 passeners @ 200 lbs each = 8,000 lbs divided by 2000 lbs = 4 tons. It is 20 miles and takes 2 gallons of fuel. That is 80 ton miles divided by 2 gallons = 40 ton miles/gallon. The train is 12X more efficient than a bus. Run that single-car DMU on CNG and price wise it becomes 36X cheaper to run a train than to run a bus the same distance.

http://www.csx.com/index.cfm/about-c...el-efficiency/

Moving freight by rail is 3 times more fuel efficient than moving freight on the highway. Trains can move a ton of freight nearly 500 miles on a single gallon of fuel. Efficient use of fuel means fewer greenhouse gas emissions for our planet.

Fuel efficiency for trains is measured in terms of ton-miles, because the length and weight of trains varies greatly. We are constantly working to improve our efficiency. In 2009, CSX trains averaged 468 miles per gallon per ton.

All those systems mentioned above also use tracks that were part of huge capital investments. My system is designed to use existing track that goes un-used for most of the year. Most of the tracks in my system only have weekly trains unless it is during harvest season.

[bombermwc]

Sort of a side track, but when did moderators here start deciding which comments to delete at their whim? There was an entire discussion going on in this thread that is gone now.

[swilki]

Sort of a side track, but when did moderators here start deciding which comments to delete at their whim? There was an entire discussion going on in this thread that is gone now.

At first I didn't think they deleted anything, but there was a whole conversation I had with Kerry about how I originally thought that the train was going to stop at every dot and he corrected me. Nothing against the mods, I think this site is a great service to the community, but I don't think there was any part of that conversation that was bad.

Bomber - what else is missing?