HB 1686 - Eastern Flyer Task Force Passes in House and Senate

[Platemaker]

I agree with that idea, but one drawback is why would civic leaders in Lawton and Altus support something like that which would send people to OKC for shopping and entertainment. It's not like OKC to Tulsa which would generate a lot of traffic both ways.

Yes... I think people in Altus and Lawton would support this. Altus AFB, Ft. Sill, and Tinker would all be connected... that makes sense in so many additional ways.

Futhermore... seems like the people are forward thinking enough... In July 2008, 70% of Altus voters passed a 3/4 cent sales tax actually called MAPS. Part is doing awesome things for Altus High School (my high school) http://www.altusschools.k12.ok.us/di...struction-home

With the recreational draws of both Altus and Lawton (the Wichita Mountains to Quartz) it's a win-win for the SW Oklahoma region as well as people in the OKC or Tulsa metros.

[Platemaker]

But going further to Altus is a no-go. That's a dot on a map that I'm curious why you think it needs rail service?

As an Altusian... OUCH.

[Hutch]

HB 1686 has made final passage in the House and has been sent to Governor Fallin. The following is from the Passenger Rail Oklahoma website:

WAITING ON GOVERNOR FALLIN'S SIGNATURE ! ! !
HB-1686 IS ON HER DESK ! ! !
SEIZE THE MOMENT AND REQUEST HER SIGNATURE ! ! !

HB-1686, The Eastern Flyer Passenger Rail Development Task Force is now on Governor Fallin's desk. Once signed, the bill becomes law. Ensure this happens. Contact Governor Fallin's office immediately.

1) By Phone
2) By e-mail
3) By Snail Mail

Governor Mary Fallin
2300 N. Lincoln Blvd.
Oklahoma City, OK 73105
405.521.2342
E-Mail/Contact Information

[ljbab728]

Yes... I think people in Altus and Lawton would support this. Altus AFB, Ft. Sill, and Tinker would all be connected... that makes sense in so many additional ways.

Futhermore... seems like the people are forward thinking enough... In July 2008, 70% of Altus voters passed a 3/4 cent sales tax actually called MAPS. Part is doing awesome things for Altus High School (my high school) http://www.altusschools.k12.ok.us/di...struction-home

With the recreational draws of both Altus and Lawton (the Wichita Mountains to Quartz) it's a win-win for the SW Oklahoma region as well as people in the OKC or Tulsa metros.

Platemaker, again I'm not opposed to rail at all. I can understand why many residents in both Altus and Lawton would support something like that but I still question whether it would be a two way street (or rail as the case may be). I don't see any relation with this issue and the sales tax support which is to be commended. There are some nice recreational areas in SW Oklahoma but it seems unlikely that anyone would take rail to that area to take advantage.

[Kerry]

There is no doubt that a majority of ridership between Lawton and OKC would originate in Lawton but there is nothing wrong with that - a vast majority of the Heartland Flier riders originate in OKC and everyone hails it as a success.

Right now the State subsidizes the Heartland Flier about $2 million per year and the Tulsa route will also require a subsidy. I would rather take that money and created an Oklahoma Rail Network and drop Amtrak all together.

[Kerry]

I have completed my first pass at a state-wide rail system map. I made it under the assumption that new rail will not be laid and that the railroads will allow use of the tracks. I also found a lot of abandoned railroad right-of-way around the state but I don’t know the legal status of it or if it can re-developed.

Since this is a complete system I still have some work to do on creating a phase schedule and possible out of state connections.

[swilki]

Kerry - great idea, one question. Why are there so many towns with service? Wouldn't it be more efficient to leave out say Elgin, Fletcher, Cyrill and Cement and just have stops in Lawton and Chickasha???? Couldn't the folks in those towns make the 10-20 mile drive to one of those stations?

I think you lose the speed and efficiency of a train system if you stop in every town along the route. Just like we need a train that goes from OKC to Ft. Worth without stopping. It would be quicker than driving and therefore more people would be apt to take the train.

[Kerry]

Kerry - great idea, one question. Why are there so many towns with service? Wouldn't it be more efficient to leave out say Elgin, Fletcher, Cyrill and Cement and just have stops in Lawton and Chickasha???? Couldn't the folks in those towns make the 10-20 mile drive to one of those stations?

I think you lose the speed and efficiency of a train system if you stop in every town along the route. Just like we need a train that goes from OKC to Ft. Worth without stopping. It would be quicker than driving and therefore more people would be apt to take the train.

This is just the route map; I am working on a sample schedule. The only cities that would have scheduled stops are the ones with the large circles (this is due to connecting service). The smaller stations would only have a stop if someone wanted on or off - otherwise the train would just go right by. The system will include both express service and local service so between OKC and Lawton, for example, there would be non-stop express trains and local service. An express train from Lawton to OKC wouldn't stop while the local service would stop at any station necessary. If no one is getting on or off in Elgin the local train doesn't stop either.

Express serive would only run between Lawton - OKC - Tulsa. Everything else would be local (unless there was connecting serive to Wichita, Little Rock, Kansas City, Springfield, Amarillo, or Dallas).

[swilki]

Thanks for clarifying. I like it!!!

[Hutch]

Governor Fallin signed HB 1686 today...an important first step in restoring passenger rail service between Oklahoma City and Tulsa.

[Kerry]

Governor Fallin signed HB 1686 today...an important first step in restoring passenger rail service between Oklahoma City and Tulsa.

Thanks for keeping us informed Hutch.

[Snowman]

I have completed my first pass at a state-wide rail system map. I made it under the assumption that new rail will not be laid and that the railroads will allow use of the tracks. I also found a lot of abandoned railroad right-of-way around the state but I don’t know the legal status of it or if it can re-developed.

Since this is a complete system I still have some work to do on creating a phase schedule and possible out of state connections.

Over 90% of Oklahoma's population lies within 25 miles of the Tulsa to Lawton line, with the exception of the line that continues on to Texas or is within metropolitan areas of OKC's & Tulsa's, every other route seems unlikely to be anything close to break even.

[Kerry]

Over 90% of Oklahoma's population lies within 25 miles of the Tulsa to Lawton line, with the exception of the line that continues on to Texas or is within metropolitan areas of OKC's & Tulsa's, every other route seems unlikely to be anything close to break even.

I'll keep that in mind when planning schedules. The Lawton/OKC/Tulsa route will have the fastest trains with the most frquent service. The rest of the system will consist of lower speed and less costly single-car DMU's. Keep in mind that this is just the route map, not the schedule. Just because Caddo and Bartlesville both have a dot on the map doesn't means they are going to get the same level of service.

[kevinpate]

Governor Fallin signed HB 1686 today...an important first step in restoring passenger rail service between Oklahoma City and Tulsa.

I'm neither surprised nor displeased, though I do marvel somewhat that this issue, in these budget times, sailed through a highly conservative legislature and governor as smoothly as it did.

[Hutch]

Just received this...

PRESS RELEASE
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
PASSENGER RAIL OKLAHOMA
RE: Governor Fallin Signs OK-HB-1686 The Eastern Flyer Passenger Rail Development Task Force
DATE: APRIL 21, 2011

CONTACT:
Evan Stair
Executive Director
Passenger Rail Oklahoma
517 Claremont
Norman, OK 73069
405.204.5801
www.PassengerRailOK.org

(Oklahoma City) - Governor Mary Fallin signed Eastern Flyer Passenger Rail Development Task Force legislation today. The bill, authored by State Representative Richard Morrissette (D)-Oklahoma City and State Senator Brian Crain (R)-Tulsa, will examine conventional, 80 mph, passenger rail operations between Oklahoma City and Tulsa, as well as High Speed Rail, currently under study by the Oklahoma Department of Transportation (ODOT).

The legislation is unique in that the Oklahoma task force will study passenger rail development using a Public-Private Partnership (PPP) foundation. PPPs are endorsed by the bi-partisan National Conference of State Legislatures (www.ncsl.org). Further, the task force will rely upon a diverse cross-section of Oklahoma government and citizens including two appointees from the Executive Branch, four members of the legislature, and one director or designee from each; ODOT, Department of Commerce, Corporation Commission, Tourism, and the Department of Environmental Quality. Most unique is the opportunity for six citizens to serve on the task force as selected by the House Speaker and State Senate President Pro Tempore. The Task Force will hold its first meeting within 90 days of sine die adjournment and will produce a final report within 18 months.

The PPP model will expand upon normal state DOT planning practices. In essence, the task force will broaden the spectrum of potential stakeholders, allowing Oklahoma business and citizens to make decisions affecting Oklahoma's transportation future: i.e. their future. PPP formulas will also provide a different funding model than is customary. The PPP promises to lighten taxpayer burden while shifting some risk and benefit to the private sector. Not only will the rail transportation service delivery method be scrutinized, but also the potential economic benefits of the service beyond-the-farebox.

The conventional route to be studied includes some state owned property. In the late 1990's the state purchased some 100 miles of railroad from the Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railway between Oklahoma City and Sapulpa. This portion of the route is currently operated under lease by a shortline freight rail carrier. The remaining 18 miles to Tulsa Union Depot is owned by the BNSF Railway. ODOT recently began construction of a new I-244 multi-modal bridge that will include a lower deck. The lower deck will accommodate two tracks one of which could potentially be used in lieu of the present BNSF Railway bridge.

"Passenger Rail Oklahoma membership is highly pleased with the Governor's decision," stated Evan Stair, Executive Director, Passenger Rail Oklahoma. "We also recognize the leadership shown by Representative Morrissette and Senator Crain, who put aside partisan differences, and worked together on this landmark legislation. This is an exciting time for Oklahomans and is the culmination of years of efforts by our membership. Hundreds of Oklahomans, including Tulsa City Councilman Rick Westcott, were instrumental in what transpired today. I am honored to have worked with so many concerned Oklahomans."

Representative Morrissette began the process of drafting this legislation in October 2010 through an Interim Study on Passenger Rail Expansion. Legislative and transportation experts from Oklahoma, Texas, Kansas, and Amtrak met at the state Capitol in October of 2011 to discuss regional passenger rail challenges and opportunities. The result has been to formalize the process through this task force that promises to deliver a comprehensive economic overview of and recommendations for state passenger rail investments.

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[Larry OKC]

I'm neither surprised nor displeased, though I do marvel somewhat that this issue, in these budget times, sailed through a highly conservative legislature and governor as smoothly as it did.

Well, they didn't commit to anything really, just studying it at this point, right?

[ljbab728]

Well, they didn't commit to anything really, just studying it at this point, right?

That's what i get from it, Larry. I guess it's a start but nothing to jump up and down about. I don't know what the cost is of the study so I'm not sure if it is a surprise to be passed or not.

[Kerry]

I wish this group would just drop Amtrak from the whole thing and just run it as a state entity. How much does Amtrak contribute to the operation of the current Heartland Flier? I think Texas and Oklahoma pick up the whole bill and Amtrak just provides the train.

[Snowman]

I wish this group would just drop Amtrak from the whole thing and just run it as a state entity. How much does Amtrak contribute to the operation of the current Heartland Flier? I think Texas and Oklahoma pick up the whole bill and Amtrak just provides the train.

I was thinking that the state subsidies are somewhere around 5 million out of something like 50 million overall costs, but it has been a long time since I have seen the figures so could be thinking of something else.

[Kerry]

Oklahoma spends $2 million per year on the Heartland Flier. I don't know what Texas spends. However, I do know Amtrak is about as inefficient as a business can be. They need to be taken out of the loop.

[CaptDave]

Heck I think it would be cool (and possibly profitable) for Amtrak to run its high speed Acela from Tulsa to OKC to Dallas. I know they require electric cantenaries but I think they can run along lines that are built not quite to the same standard for turn radius as TGV type HSR. So maybe the state owned Tulsa - OKC line could be adapted for the Acela?

[Kerry]

Heck I think it would be cool (and possibly profitable) for Amtrak to run its high speed Acela from Tulsa to OKC to Dallas. I know they require electric cantenaries but I think they can run along lines that are built not quite to the same standard for turn radius as TGV type HSR. So maybe the state owned Tulsa - OKC line could be apated for the Acela?

The problem with the line between Tulsa and OKC is two fold. 1. It has a lot turns, and 2. It has about a million at-grade crossings. I think the top speed is limited to 74 mph (but don't ask me why I think that). Any attempt at true HSR is going to have to be along the turnpike right of way.

[CaptDave]

Ok - I hoped maybe the Tulsa-OKC line was mostly straight and within the requirements for Acela. Would have been nice to not need to start from scratch with rail construction.

[Superhyper]

The current line between okc-tulsa is very snake-like, but the State owns that rail (up to Sapulpa) and can do whatever it wants with it. It's not at the mercy of companies like BNSF as it is in a lot of other places (OKC-FW).

[Kerry]

The current line between okc-tulsa is very snake-like, but the State owns that rail (up to Sapulpa) and can do whatever it wants with it. It's not at the mercy of companies like BNSF as it is in a lot of other places (OKC-FW).

It doesn't get much mention but I think the state also owns the same line between OKC and Lawton. There is also another rail line from Sapulpa to downtown Tulsa that is owned by the Tulsa Sapulpa Union Railway company. As you get close to downtown most of the rail is missing but the right of way is still there.