Stage Center

[dmoor82]

If The city of OKC cannot fit the new Convention center hotel on the proposed site do you guys think the city will buy out the land or use eminent domain to use this property for the hotel?

[mcca7596]

I would prefer that to the alternative of the city demolishing it without a private developer committed to building anything.

[dmoor82]

I would prefer that to the alternative of the city demolishing it without a private developer committed to building anything.

^^Agreed,we have enough empty lots,and one more in a prime area without any concrete plans is just stupid imo!

[Patrick]

Guess it depends on your definition of reasonable. The Civic Center came in costing nearly double what voters were told:
Pre-vote = $27MM
Final cost = $53MM
Over = $26MM

$53 million is a bargain for what we got. They basically demolished the entire interior of the performance hall, only leaving the shell, and rebuilt everything. That price isn't too bad for doing all of that. Actually, the only thing left untouched was Freede Theater.

[Rover]

$53 million is a bargain for what we got. They basically demolished the entire interior of the performance hall, only leaving the shell, and rebuilt everything. That price isn't too bad for doing all of that. Actually, the only thing left untouched was Freede Theater.

shhhh. Don't spread that. There are many on this board who still think we should get great stuff on the cheap. That is what is important...not value, just cheap.

[ljbab728]

My experience has been that the acoustics have been fine, at least for symphony performances. I've never been to any plays in the new auditorium.

It is, by the way, smaller than the original.

That's putting it mildly since the original Muncipal Auditorium could seat 6,400.

[hoya]

shhhh. Don't spread that. There are many on this board who still think we should get great stuff on the cheap. That is what is important...not value, just cheap.

Agreed. And that's exactly the attitude that drives me nuts.

Some people on this board want OKC to have the best of everything. When the Civic Center isn't the Sydney Opera House, they get pissed. When the new convention center doesn't compare to sites in Vegas, they get pissed. There was even a guy (don't remember who) who started throwing a fit because Devon lopped off about 100' from their building to move all their IT stuff to another location. I remember him saying that he wished they wouldn't even build the tower now because it "wasn't what we were promised". These people act like spoiled children.

On the other side, we have those who complain the moment we go one penny over budget. They aren't necessarily looking for us to have innovative design or a great product, they just want cheap. Get whatever it is for as little money as possible, like there's some list they're going down putting check-marks beside. Arena, check. Convention center, check. New park, check.

At the end of the day, OKC isn't going to spend the money to get the best thing in the world. The Sydney Opera House cost over $100 million back in 1973! On the other hand, pinching pennies and getting something for the absolute least amount of money possible has NEVER been the goal of MAPS, nor should it be.

[Just the facts]

When the new convention center doesn't compare to sites in Vegas, they get pissed.

I think the problem arises when they promise a convention center that does compare to sites in Vegas at half the cost, but what we get is half the Vegas site at twice the cost. Mind you I am not one that gets hung up on cost over-runs and such because I have done enough remodeling to know better. I just think that is what the people who do have issues are expressing.

[rcjunkie]

I think the problem arises when they promise a convention center that does compare to sites in Vegas at half the cost, but what we get is half the Vegas site at twice the cost. Mind you I am not one that gets hung up on cost over-runs and such because I have done enough remodeling to know better. I just think that is what the people who do have issues are expressing.

Again, your facts are wrong. No one here, in OKC Chambers or City Hall promised a CC that would rival sites in Vegas.

[Just the facts]

Again, your facts are wrong. No one here, in OKC Chambers or City Hall promised a CC that would rival sites in Vegas.

We already have a thread for the Convention Center - sorry to detract from this one.

[bluedogok]

The Sydney Opera House cost over $100 million back in 1973!

It also came in at more than double the original budget.

[Larry OKC]

So as not to further contribute to the derailing of the thread, I have responded by PM to Frittergirl, Rover, mcca7596 & Patrick

[Double Edge]

I've always loved Stage Center and hope a viable option for keeping it around can be found, private, public or whatever.

[Steve]

There's definitely a love-hate relationship with this place.

[urbanity]

Next stage

While Stage Center's future remains cloudy, it's hardly the first obstacle in the iconic building's history.

http://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/ar...ext-stage.html

[Rover]

There's definitely a love-hate relationship with this place.

If those who love it will really get behind and support it (read $$$$$), then there will be no problem. If they expect support from the general public, it will be very hard. I personally like the place and hope it makes it but I haven't decided how hard I would be willing to fight. I bet I am not alone in that quandary.

[USG'60]

According to the Gazette article, Johanson said that the flooding problems could be fixed by a simple sump pump and that most materials were bought at a farm store, so why is it going to be so expensive to rehab and continue using it. I still suspect that our collective legs are being pulled to some extent. Granted I feel some solice knowing that Tolbert is a major supporter, but with this info from Johanson, I just have to wonder.....

[Rover]

If the building was flooded then there is the real possibility of black mold infestation which would be very costly to remediate. Plus, if water damage harmed mechanical systems, flooring, walls, etc. then the costs go way up. Don't know, but some of the problems could be very expensive. Has any qualified contractor actually inspected and estimated?

[USG'60]

On another thread there is some mention of the dangers of asbestos and Mercury and some questions regarding the veracity of those claims of danger. I must say I have my doubts about the dangers of black mold. Is there a good link to a good discussion of such dangers? If it IS very dangerous can it not be "encased" against the surface with some special coating, if not simple polyurithane?

[betts]

We've probably had black mold with us for eons. I'm not too worried about it. I don't think there's a lot of hard data about the risks of it, and I'm sure in wetter climates it's in virtually every home. There are probably some people more sensitive to it than others, but I suspect its effects are vastly overblown. It's made home inspectors and repairers a lot of money, however. Perhaps it's better for the economy than it is bad for us.

[Rover]

We've probably had black mold with us for eons. I'm not too worried about it. I don't think there's a lot of hard data about the risks of it, and I'm sure in wetter climates it's in virtually every home. There are probably some people more sensitive to it than others, but I suspect its effects are vastly overblown. It's made home inspectors and repairers a lot of money, however. Perhaps it's better for the economy than it is bad for us.

Tell me you are kidding. Black mold can be extremely serious...that is why it is called "toxic" mold. It can cause serious respiratory problems when it enters the lungs, and can even cause cancer. It is not to be trifled with. In asthmatics and children it can cause bleeding lungs, among other things. To knowingly allow it in any building, especially a public building, is asking for serious problems and lawsuits. To imply it is a scam and it is okay to allow it to exist and reopen the building is beyond irresponsible.

[betts]

The mold in question is Stachybotrys chartarum. While there are studies in infant mice and goats demonstrating some potential pathology, its relationship to disease in humans is not well demonstrated. At the most, only about a third of it's spores are even small enough to be an inhalational risk. From the Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology: "The exact mechanism of S. chartarum pathogenesis has not yet been defined. Moreover, a causality-effect relation (to respiratory disease in humans) is not yet established."

I'm a pediatrician and I've been at a referral center for 20 years. I have yet to see a single case of bleeding lungs in infants. What I have seen is a lot of cigarette-induced lung disease. The pathophysiology of asthma is very complex, and in fact I do not believe it is a single disease. Like cystic fibrosis, I believe it is probably 100 different diseases that have a single common endpoint. Genetic and environmental factors play a part and it is difficult to separate out the two. To attribute disease solely to a single fungal agent that is almost never grown in lung tissue of healthy children and/or adults is too simplistic an explanation, especially when those children are exposed to cigarette smoke, smog, dust mites, animal dander, cockroach debris, other fungi and pollens.

I don't think anyone should knowingly allow it to be present in buildings. However, I think there's been hysteria way out of proportion to the public health risk and a lot of money spent on abatement that perhaps would better be spent on control of car emissions, manufacturing emissions, smoking cessation, asthma education, etc.

[kevinpate]

the doc's stock ... up ten points, at least in my opinion.

[Rover]

The mold in question is Stachybotrys chartarum. While there are studies in infant mice and goats demonstrating some potential pathology, its relationship to disease in humans is not well demonstrated. At the most, only about a third of it's spores are even small enough to be an inhalational risk. From the Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology: "The exact mechanism of S. chartarum pathogenesis has not yet been defined. Moreover, a causality-effect relation (to respiratory disease in humans) is not yet established."

I'm a pediatrician and I've been at a referral center for 20 years. I have yet to see a single case of bleeding lungs in infants. What I have seen is a lot of cigarette-induced lung disease. The pathophysiology of asthma is very complex, and in fact I do not believe it is a single disease. Like cystic fibrosis, I believe it is probably 100 different diseases that have a single common endpoint. Genetic and environmental factors play a part and it is difficult to separate out the two. To attribute disease solely to a single fungal agent that is almost never grown in lung tissue of healthy children and/or adults is too simplistic an explanation, especially when those children are exposed to cigarette smoke, smog, dust mites, animal dander, cockroach debris, other fungi and pollens.

I don't think anyone should knowingly allow it to be present in buildings. However, I think there's been hysteria way out of proportion to the public health risk and a lot of money spent on abatement that perhaps would better be spent on control of car emissions, manufacturing emissions, smoking cessation, asthma education, etc.

I certainly defer to your expertise as a Dr.. My perspective comes from researching for product development on UV light products for remediation of these types of things in buildings. I will only say I have seen quite a bit of qualified research that takes a more stern, or at least cautious view than you expressed. Organizations like the CDC have made pretty declarative statements in the past. My only point, and I hope I didn't do it as an attack, was that mold in a public building cannot be dismissed as harmless and that remediation could be expensive. For people to say that there is do problem with a simple paint job and re-opening the Stage Center, I think is naive. Do we have to nuclear destruct it....heavens no.

Thanks for weighing in with your credential.

Oh, and Bett's stock has always been up as far as I am concerned...always seems to have a sane, measured and educated thought on the subjects on this board. Don't know him/her personally, but do have respect for them.

[USG'60]

Rover, I can't help but believe that the CDC and other gov't agencies have to "cry wolf" in order to stay in existence and maintain the jobs of those who work there. I truly believe that everything is overblown for that reason. Granted they do have a huge amount of power and can force things that some of us think is ridiculous, but I can't help but think there is some kind of work around for "encasing" (so to speak) the black mold that is not excessivly expensive. If nothing can be found to pull that off I would like to think that it is time for a law suit to mitigate their power and/or change the rules . This is just me being desparate. :-)