OKC/Will Rogers Air Service Discussion 2011

[ljbab728]

So Air Tran (FL) will just drop all its service on these routes? I thought the WN service was on top of what FL already offers, not a complete replacement since WN's frequencies are just 2-3 daily (total of 15 daily).

All AirTran flights will eventually be rebranded as Southwest. Southwest will add a few routes but, at first, it will just basically be a name change for AirTran.

[SkyWestOKC]

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/S...249Z/KSFO/KOKC

And the inaugural San Francisco to OKC flight is in the air!

Tomorrow morning will be the inaugural departure to San Francisco. I am hoping to snap a few pics tomorrow morning. We'll see.

[venture]

Venture, I deal with airfares every day. I understand what you're saying about WN not being the cheapest now in many cases. However, they do still impact pricing in new areas they move into. DL fares to Atlanta have been outrageous for years, especially for business travelers. Many prefer connections over convenience to save hundreds of dollars.

There is very little impact that AirTran hasn't already delivered. Sure some additional markets are added thanks to WN, but anything east of the Mississippi has already been adjusted to stable air fare.

As far as travelers preferring connections over convenience of nonstop flights. That is highly dependent on the area. There are many cases where lower fares are available from secondary airports, but the masses will always flock to the major hubs - if they are in short driving distance - to get the better assortment of nonstop flights. The Oklahoma market isn't really impacted with such a setup since Dallas is still a 2-3 hour drive away. If DFW was an hour out of OKC it would be a completely different story here.

[GoThunder]

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/S...249Z/KSFO/KOKC

And the inaugural San Francisco to OKC flight is in the air!

Tomorrow morning will be the inaugural departure to San Francisco. I am hoping to snap a few pics tomorrow morning. We'll see.

I really wish FlightAware showed the load factors for flights. It would be cool to see if these first flights are fully booked or not!

[ljbab728]

There is very little impact that AirTran hasn't already delivered. Sure some additional markets are added thanks to WN, but anything east of the Mississippi has already been adjusted to stable air fare.

As far as travelers preferring connections over convenience of nonstop flights. That is highly dependent on the area. There are many cases where lower fares are available from secondary airports, but the masses will always flock to the major hubs - if they are in short driving distance - to get the better assortment of nonstop flights. The Oklahoma market isn't really impacted with such a setup since Dallas is still a 2-3 hour drive away. If DFW was an hour out of OKC it would be a completely different story here.

Venture, I was talking about fares from OKC to ATL specifically not ATL fares in general. I was also referring to our local traffic when talking about some who are happy to take connections to save money. I remember one instance where someone was originating in DFW. He flew to OKC first and then back to DFW to make a connection to save a significant amount of money.

And Southwest isn't immune to that kind of thing. I also now often find connecting flights to Phoenix to be lower than the Southwest nonstops.

[venture]

I really wish FlightAware showed the load factors for flights. It would be cool to see if these first flights are fully booked or not!

Load factors should be offered in the monthly stats released by the airport, however they seem to exclude that information. Of course they may not want to release that information, for whatever reason, even though most other airports offer it up easily.

[OUman]

FlightAware is a flight tracking service, it doesn't handle load factors or other aviation-related material. Other than aviation weather that is.

[SkyWestOKC]

I know for a fact that none of the SFO flights have been fully booked yet. The best I have seen so far was booked 48/66. As the route matures and more people become aware of it, it will fill up more. Today was booked around 40/66.

[OUman]

I'm sure with the number of Sacramentans that have moved here the SFO flight will gain momentum, hopefully.

[SkyWestOKC]

Here's a change that I overlooked. Frontier is up-guaging one of the flights to Denver on Saturdays only effective Sep 17 through Oct 8. We will have a total of 2 mainline flights and 1 EMB190 flights on those Saturdays.

This shows there is at least some mild interest in adding some more capacity. I do know the current daily mainline flight is doing well, so it wouldn't be a huge surprise to up-guage one more.

Frontier is going to commit to their normal seasonal frequency reduction in January - March reducing the schedule to 2 daily flights. This is the same as last year, but we will still hold on to the mainline flight. The route will probably go back to 3x starting in March.

[SkyWestOKC]

Did some more digging around, and it actually is 2x mainline 1x E190 Tuesdays and Saturdays Effective from Sept. 13 to Oct 8. And then Tuesdays only Oct. 11 through November 15th.

[OKCJapan]

I think OKC needs direct service to Most if not all Current NBA cities! It is true that most are served right now, but I think cities like Portland, Milwaukee, and Charlotte should be added in near future.

[SkyWestOKC]

We have decent service to other NBA cities:

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=OKC-DEN/S...X=720x360&PM=*

[Okie Yorker]

Would be nice if Delta started doing a Non-Stop into JFK from OKC...They are really putting a lot of money into JFK trying to capture more of the NYC market, so it might be something we could see in the future.

[venture]

I think OKC needs direct service to Most if not all Current NBA cities! It is true that most are served right now, but I think cities like Portland, Milwaukee, and Charlotte should be added in near future.

CLT would work if US Airways ever gets into domestic expansion mode again - which it hasn't really done since combining with America West. PDX has Alaska as it's biggest airline, but not big enough to push for a nonstop flight. MKE...depends on what happens with Southwest/AirTran and Frontier.

Would be nice if Delta started doing a Non-Stop into JFK from OKC...They are really putting a lot of money into JFK trying to capture more of the NYC market, so it might be something we could see in the future.

Most of the expansion soon will be out of LGA after the slot swap with US Airways. Consider that United/Continental has only maintained 1 daily flight to Newark all these years really points to the weakness of the nonstop O&D market. Most are comfortable connecting.

[ljbab728]

Most of the expansion soon will be out of LGA after the slot swap with US Airways. Consider that United/Continental has only maintained 1 daily flight to Newark all these years really points to the weakness of the nonstop O&D market. Most are comfortable connecting.

Most business travelers prefer the flexibility offered by the options with connections.

[Okie Yorker]

CLT would work if US Airways ever gets into domestic expansion mode again - which it hasn't really done since combining with America West. PDX has Alaska as it's biggest airline, but not big enough to push for a nonstop flight. MKE...depends on what happens with Southwest/AirTran and Frontier.



Most of the expansion soon will be out of LGA after the slot swap with US Airways. Consider that United/Continental has only maintained 1 daily flight to Newark all these years really points to the weakness of the nonstop O&D market. Most are comfortable connecting.

I think the biggest problem with the CO/UA flight is that they operate it in a ERJ145....This is a very small, uncomfortable aircraft for a 3.5 hour flight (especially for business/frequent travelers). Taking the route between OKC/Metro NYC for 11 years, I was excited at first when CO started offering the non-stop into EWR and took the flight frequently, however, it got very old sitting in those small, uncomfortable RJ seats after a while. Many RJ pilots will tell you that OKC to EWR is one of the LONGEST flights in a smaller RJ in the US.

After enough long flights, I switched my loyalty back to Northwest (now Delta) and don't mind connecting thru MEM/ATL/DTW as they at least offer a nicer RJ (sometimes even main line) out of OKC such as the CRJ900 or ERJ175 which have first class cabins, taller ceiling heights, wider bodies, etc. In addition, DL offers in-flight wifi web connections on all main line (and soon, all RJ flights), which is a business travelers dream for productivity.

As far as the LGA/JFK scenario, I think JFK wins in the long run. LGA is SUPER INCONVENIENT when it comes to mass transit (since the only mass transit way to get there is via a long N/R train ride to the end of the line and then a random bus ride thru Queens). JFK is super easy with a quick 15 minute LIRR ride out of Penn Station to Jamica Station and then a 5 minute monorail ("Airtrain") ride to the terminals.

In addition, JFK has much more runway space and DL has a much larger presence at JFK taking up terminals 2 & 3 with numerous gates. They are picking up like 15 gates from US Airways at LGA, however, LGA can't handle the kind of traffic that Kennedy can and the terminals at LGA are pretty nasty.

JFK tends to be about $100 to $200 less for OKC flights when compared with LGA/EWR options also.

Bottom line is I think if an airline (such as DL) would offer a non-stop from OKC into EWR/LGA/JFK on a Main Line or at least a nicer RJ, you'd find many of your frequent travelers like myself would opt in immediately.

[SkyWestOKC]

I agree with Okie Yorker. You have to play in the avoidance factor. Using UA/CO as an example is not very good because they have done nothing to improve the service. People avoid long RJ flights just like they avoid prop flights. I would book a connection in a heartbeat over flying the ERJ for 3 1/2 hours (add in delays, and the time on board is much longer). If the product was upgraded, the willingness to connect for comfort would go down.

[Okie Yorker]

[QUOTE=SkyWestOKC;465017] (add in delays, and the time on board is much longer)QUOTE]

You hit the nail on the head there....I could write a book on delayed flights into LGA/EWR/JFK! While none of the 3 Main NYC airports are the busiest in the US, the airspace is by far the most ridiculous spaghetti mess in the world, accomodating upwards of 110 million passangers annually between JFK/EWR/LGA/SWF/ISP/HPN airports and the very close PHL (which is only about 90 miles from EWR). It's always interesting how a cloud cluster with a nice gust of wind over central jersey will send everything in the area into a tailspin and create 90 to 120 min ATC delays at the drop of a hat!

Reason #129 why I love landing at Will Rogers (except when those nasty supercells come thru!)

[venture]

I think the biggest problem with the CO/UA flight is that they operate it in a ERJ145....This is a very small, uncomfortable aircraft for a 3.5 hour flight (especially for business/frequent travelers). Taking the route between OKC/Metro NYC for 11 years, I was excited at first when CO started offering the non-stop into EWR and took the flight frequently, however, it got very old sitting in those small, uncomfortable RJ seats after a while. Many RJ pilots will tell you that OKC to EWR is one of the LONGEST flights in a smaller RJ in the US.

I believe it ranks around 8th or 9th longest ERJ route for CO/UA. There is definitely no competition between the ERJ-170/190 product and the ERJ-145.

As far as the LGA/JFK scenario, I think JFK wins in the long run. LGA is SUPER INCONVENIENT when it comes to mass transit (since the only mass transit way to get there is via a long N/R train ride to the end of the line and then a random bus ride thru Queens). JFK is super easy with a quick 15 minute LIRR ride out of Penn Station to Jamica Station and then a 5 minute monorail ("Airtrain") ride to the terminals.

My perspective was from the point of Delta right now, not really what would be better for a passenger. JFK is obviously better for passengers.

In addition, JFK has much more runway space and DL has a much larger presence at JFK taking up terminals 2 & 3 with numerous gates. They are picking up like 15 gates from US Airways at LGA, however, LGA can't handle the kind of traffic that Kennedy can and the terminals at LGA are pretty nasty.

Regardless of the gates they are getting, the only thing that really matters is the slots they are getting. They are going to get 116 additional slots for LGA through the US/DL swap deal. Yes there will be some growth opportunity at JFK, but a lot of focus is on LGA.

Bottom line is I think if an airline (such as DL) would offer a non-stop from OKC into EWR/LGA/JFK on a Main Line or at least a nicer RJ, you'd find many of your frequent travelers like myself would opt in immediately.

The problem is...it'll be a CRJ-200 at first if it happens and it doesn't add much over the ERJ-145 and will probably be weight restricted.

[SkyWestOKC]

I don't think it's guaranteed to be a CRJ-200. I think there is a good chance, if it happened, that they'd use a CRJ-700.

[Okie Yorker]

On a totally random off topic....I was pretty impressed by an airline I flew last week on a flight from EWR to Toronto....."Porter Arilines". It's all regionals (actually, large turbo probs (bombradier's) that were relatively comfortable and the service was amazing....All coach, but they used glassware and even gave us a meal for the short 80 minute flight between Tortonto & EWR. They fly between BOS/EWR/ORD and a few other cities and Canada....Super cheap too (like $70 each way!).

[venture]

I don't think it's guaranteed to be a CRJ-200. I think there is a good chance, if it happened, that they'd use a CRJ-700.

As long as there isn't an issue with aircraft availability, probably...but I'm not sure they would want to dump a 70-seater on it from the start. However, it seems to have worked for UA to LAX and IAD.

[SkyWestOKC]

And UA to SFO. AA to LAX, etc.

[SkyWestOKC]

Frontier loaded their schedule extension to May 10 this morning.

We will remain at 2 daily flights (1x A319 1x E190) to Denver until May 1, when we return to 3x daily flights (2x A319 1x E190).