New Streetcar Routes in Other Cities

[okclee]

Light rail produces a burst of development, but not everywhere
http://newurbannetwork.com/article/l...erywhere-14344

Author:
Philip Langdon
New Urban Network

The Denver, Charlotte, and Minneapolis-St. Paul regions all opened new light-rail lines between 2004 and 2007, aiming to enhance their transportation systems and at the same time encourage efficiently-placed real estate development.

They got much of what they were looking for. “All three transit lines experienced a tremendous amount of new development” — 6.7 million square feet along the Twin Cities’ Hiawatha Line, 7.8 million square feet along Denver’s Southeast Corridor, and 9.8 million square feet served by Charlotte’s Blue Line, says a new report from the Center for Transit-Oriented Development.

The 80-page analysis, Rails to Real Estate: Development Patterns Along Three New Transit Lines, says residential construction came on particularly strong. In the Twin Cities, 86 percent of the development near the 12-mile Hiawatha Line was housing. In Denver, 68 percent was housing, and in Charlotte, 54 percent.

But if anyone expected development to crop up at every station, there was cause for disappointment. Transit-oriented development (TOD) concentrated primarily in areas that already had plenty of jobs or amenities to offer..................read more........http://newurbannetwork.com/article/l...erywhere-14344

[Kerry]

One of the reasons TOD doesn't develop at every station is because once you get out on the fringes those stations are setup for 'park and ride' which only encourages more sprawl. I am not a fan of the park and ride concept. I prefer a focused mass transit region or connecting urban centers (like downtown Norman and downtown Edmond) with each other. I want people to live closer to train stations, not make it easier for them to sprawl out even more.

[okclee]

Those numbers are really amazing with SF of new development. Nearly 10 Million in Charlotte. Those advocating for the convention center need to read this report.

[Spartan]

Light rail produces a burst of development, but not everywhere
http://newurbannetwork.com/article/l...erywhere-14344

This should be tagged with "OKC: NB!"

I hope Jeff and the rest of the streetcar read this. No sense at all in focusing all of the efforts on attracting TOD. Development potential can NOT outweigh existing functionality. You have to put some focus on the areas that are currently hot for development, because it won't create new development areas--it will however add tremendously to areas with existing development. That is the way to best maximize TOD potential, by far.

[betts]

I could not agree more Spartan. Also, the nice (regretably) thing about OKC is that there is so much open land downtown that you don't really have to think about TOD very much when considering street car routes. There is TOD potential everywhere. The first goal, to me, of a streetcar line is to move people places they want to go at distances they are not willing to walk. The second goal is to make the line simple enough that people can understand it and can easily figure out how to get on the streetcar, where to get off and where to catch it again. The third goal is to get people who ordinarily wouldn't consider riding a bus to try the streetcar and learn that mass transit is easy and relaxing....to help change the attitudes of people here regarding mass transit. There are a lot of other goals which we have already discussed, but those are the key ones to me.

[okclee]

Streetcar First!

I don't know the Okc convention center financial numbers to compare but they would need to be staggering in order to go up against the type of new development seen in these 3 cities.

Charlotte nearly 10 million square feet of new development in only 4 years! The low end is Minneapolis with nearly 7 million square feet of new development in a 6 year span!

Let's get Streetcar first!

Four years after that streetcar, the convention center would open to a completely transformed downtown Okc with millions of new sq ft. This would be all new private downtown developments, commercial and residential. Amazing!

To put some of these numbers in perspective;
Block 42 = 103,000 sf
Maywood Lofts = 140,000 sf
Centennial Canal = 107,000 sf

All of Bricktown and Lower Bricktown Retail combined not including Hotels = 553,000 sf!!

This all totals less than 1 million square feet.

Now let those numbers sink in and think about Charlotte at 10 Million Square Feet of New Commercial and Residential Development in only 4 years time.

[Kerry]

Now let those numbers sink in and think about Charlotte at 10 Million Square Feet of New Commercial and Residential Development in only 4 years time.

And that was on only one of their lines. We were in Memphis about a year and half ago and the amount of new construction along their streetcar was mind-blowing. New condos, apartments, and hotels everywhere along the line. Also, go check out King Street in San Francisco. Before Muni was put it that area was the worst San Fran had to offer.

[Spartan]

Streetcar First!

I don't know the Okc convention center financial numbers to compare but they would need to be staggering in order to go up against the type of new development seen in these 3 cities.

Charlotte nearly 10 million square feet of new development in only 4 years! The low end is Minneapolis with nearly 7 million square feet of new development in a 6 year span!

Let's get Streetcar first!

Four years after that streetcar, the convention center would open to a completely transformed downtown Okc with millions of new sq ft. This would be all new private downtown developments, commercial and residential. Amazing!

To put some of these numbers in perspective;
Block 42 = 103,000 sf
Maywood Lofts = 140,000 sf
Centennial Canal = 107,000 sf

All of Bricktown and Lower Bricktown Retail combined not including Hotels = 553,000 sf!!

This all totals less than 1 million square feet.

Now let those numbers sink in and think about Charlotte at 10 Million Square Feet of New Commercial and Residential Development in only 4 years time.

I prefer to think of it in Portland terms, for every $1 spent on streetcar, $18 in private development. I normally think it's insane to talk about things paying for themselves. But in Portland that's actually worked, of course, they've built their city entirely around streetcar. Expansions are often funded through ad valorem taxing districts, like a BID. 1-18 is not an unreasonable ratio to recoup your investment with property taxes...

[Larry OKC]

Take into account in Spartan's $18 to $1, how much of that goes directly back to the City or does it go to the County or State? Reportedly the $350M that was spent on MAPS lead to $1 to $5 Billion in investment (depends on which set of numbers you believe). If all of that money was coming back to the City (as in the 18 to 1 comparison), MAPS should have not only paid for itself, but there shouldn't have been any need for additional taxes to fund MAPS 2 or MAPS 3. Or at the least at a substantially reduced rate or length. Right?

Take into account is the development going to happen anyway, just maybe not in that location (say on Memorial, Meridian or even the relocated I-40)?

One thing to consider about the C.C., is while it probably doesn't lead that much to private development (other than some retail/bars/clubs etc), it is nearly all NEW money coming into the economy and not just shifting of money from one area of the City to another. Granted, you might be shifting some money from surrounding cities.

[Kerry]

Looking at the Cox Calendar about 90-95% of the events at Cox are attended by locals - high school graduations, Sesame Street Live, home and garden show, Barons games, etc. There are very few conventions where most of the delegates come from out of state. I understand that is why we need a new convention center but a new CC pails in comparison to the amount of local revenue generated with TOD, which is brand new money, not just moving money around.

When someone takes out a $5 million construction loan that is brand new money to the economy - it did not exist at all before. Money from a loan is created out of thin air and then spent in the real world of good and services.

[okclee]

Take into account is the development going to happen anyway, just maybe not in that location (say on Memorial, Meridian or even the relocated I-40)?

I can not take that into account, because I disagree that new development is just changing from one spot in Okc to another. Development around the streetcar would not happen without the streetcar.

Memorial, Meridian, will continue their course with or without streetcar. A streetcar has the ability to change Okc into a magnet type of city, such as Charlotte and Portland. New people = New Money.

It's not like we are having to choose one or the other (streetcar or convention center), we get Both, Yea!

It is which comes first, and that makes this a great discussion, Life in Okc is amazing right now. We can disagree on parks, streetcar, convention center, river improvements, but very few Cities are adding all of these improvements.

[Kerry]

For those interested in the demise of the Cincinnati Streetcar, here is a good story on it.

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2...ject-in-peril/

Ohio has a budget deficit of nearly $10 billion - they simply don't have the money to pay for construction or operation, even with the Federal government covering half the cost. Of course the federal government is also running a deficit and can't afford it either. It is real crappy that it has to come to point where the multiple levels of government have wasted so much money that they now can't afford to do what they should have been doing in the first place.

I found it interesting as well that Ohio was planning to build a rail system between Cleveland, Columbus, and Cincinnati and that was scrapped as well.

The only way Cincinnati is going to get a street car is if they pay for it themselves (ala a MAPS style tax).

[Larry OKC]

...When someone takes out a $5 million construction loan that is brand new money to the economy - it did not exist at all before. Money from a loan is created out of thin air and then spent in the real world of good and services.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, what I was saying is how much of the TOD is actually new money and not money from a project that would be built somewhere else in the City instead of along the Streetcar route? Also, I am not saying that Streetcars don't lead to development (even though there was a statement to that effect during the ULI presentation). I am just asking what percentage can be directly attributed to the route? In other words, if there was no streetcar, would these developments not get built at all?

Same question I asked about MAPS in general. It has been stated that it lead to at least $1B in private investment. That sales tax rates have increased. But it goes back to the question, what were sales tax rates in the 10 years before MAPS? What was the average yearly growth? How much can be directly attributed to MAPS?

I am for the Streetcars and wish we were getting what was talked about instead of this "starter set". Wish we hadn't ripped out the 180 miles we once had. But we did. To turn it around, did development stop when we ripped out streetcars? When the last streetcar dropped off its final passenger, did OKC come to a screeching halt or did it continue to grow?

[Larry OKC]

...It is which comes first, and that makes this a great discussion, Life in Okc is amazing right now. We can disagree on parks, streetcar, convention center, river improvements, but very few Cities are adding all of these improvements.

Others have posted previously, it is because other cities already have these things. that OKC is playing "catch up".

[PHXguyinOKC]

here's the Phoenix area rail corridor:



Tempe finally approved the route of its 2.6 mile street car system:



and the 20 mile Light Rail starter line (opened in Dec 2008) will be extended 3.1 miles through Downtown Mesa to link it with Downtown Tempe and Downtown Phoenix

[soonerliberal]

While in Phoenix last summer for a conference, I rode the light rail line and was fascinated at how efficient it was. While the mileage is definitely more than we are starting with, they have been able to cover a significant amount of ground.

They started making it in an "L shape", connecting the Central Ave. business corridor north of downtown, downtown and the convention/arena area, the airport, and ASU in Tempe.

I really wish we could focus on maximizing the mileage and reach of the initial line past the downtown/midtown areas.

[Urban Pioneer]

In the current intent, we have around 1.5 to 2 miles in reserve that would get us to 23rd/Classen, Plaza, Paseo, or the Capitol easily.

Right now 'the center of gravity' for many of us seems to be orienting streetcar towards OCU in a 1C or 2A phasing if I can speak liberally.

A great deal of this has to do with numbers of people without cars and likely ridership density.

Of course, a great deal of this has to do with City Council.

Their first critical decision is approval of receiving the 1 A recommendations. This will occur this Tuesday morning. It is probably the most important City Council meeting for the streetcar project since it was approved on the 'resolution of intent.'

[Larry OKC]

The City Cox channel has been running a short "Mayor's magazine" type segment (same set) with Councilmen White and Bowman. Bowman mentions towards the end of it that one of his regrets is not leading the cause to get a permanent OKC, 1 or 2 cent tax on GASOLINE to pay for mass transit needs (buses, "trolleys" etc). Thoughts?

[ljbab728]

While in Phoenix last summer for a conference, I rode the light rail line and was fascinated at how efficient it was. While the mileage is definitely more than we are starting with, they have been able to cover a significant amount of ground.

They started making it in an "L shape", connecting the Central Ave. business corridor north of downtown, downtown and the convention/arena area, the airport, and ASU in Tempe.

I really wish we could focus on maximizing the mileage and reach of the initial line past the downtown/midtown areas.

You're comparing a light rail system to our street car system. Light rail is not in our current plans even if it's hoped for in the future.

[soonerguru]

Take into account in Spartan's $18 to $1, how much of that goes directly back to the City or does it go to the County or State? Reportedly the $350M that was spent on MAPS lead to $1 to $5 Billion in investment (depends on which set of numbers you believe). If all of that money was coming back to the City (as in the 18 to 1 comparison), MAPS should have not only paid for itself, but there shouldn't have been any need for additional taxes to fund MAPS 2 or MAPS 3. Or at the least at a substantially reduced rate or length. Right?

Take into account is the development going to happen anyway, just maybe not in that location (say on Memorial, Meridian or even the relocated I-40)?

One thing to consider about the C.C., is while it probably doesn't lead that much to private development (other than some retail/bars/clubs etc), it is nearly all NEW money coming into the economy and not just shifting of money from one area of the City to another. Granted, you might be shifting some money from surrounding cities.

This is a somewhat reasonable argument, but you seem to miss the point about transit-oriented development. Private residential, commercial and retail development in the urban core is essential for this city to grow. The streetcar, facilitating transit-oriented development, will be the stimulus to make this happen.

Your argument regarding the economics of the CC vs the streetcar is flawed. We're not talking about a zero-sum game with transit-oriented development, such as when one business cannibalizes another. It's a multiplier effect. We would actually be facilitating new residents and businesses to locate in a dense, more economically viable environment -- one we currently cannot offer. This is a new paradigm.

Obviously, we need better convention facilities, and having them will lead to more hotel/motel taxes and patronage of our downtown entertainment districts, and that's great. But it doesn't fundamentally change the quality of life of our city, or make it a more appealing place to relocate to, as the streetcar with expected TOD would. It's not even on the same plane as far as economic development activity.

Creating a vibrant, modern city with an active pedestrian core with transit is going to transform this city, its image, and make it an international player. A really nice convention center will not do that.

[Spartan]

The City Cox channel has been running a short "Mayor's magazine" type segment (same set) with Councilmen White and Bowman. Bowman mentions towards the end of it that one of his regrets is not leading the cause to get a permanent OKC, 1 or 2 cent tax on GASOLINE to pay for mass transit needs (buses, "trolleys" etc). Thoughts?

That's a brilliant, progressive idea, such that you'd expect from Bowman, and such that you'd expect to be dead on arrival in OKC. Not much more to say as far as I'm aware..

Larry, two points about 18-1: You're right, I'm not sure it brings NEW GROWTH to OKC. You're going to have a $18 of development anyway, why not take that $18 away from the suburbs and add it to downtown in terms of development? We know that streetcar DOES cause areas to be built up that wouldn't otherwise be built up. And as for paying for itself, of course that gets split up many different ways. Some of it goes to fund severely underfunded schools. Some of it goes to fund the bloated police structure. Some of it goes to pave roads. Some of it lines the pockets of cronies. But all of that money would have to be located somewhere else if it wasn't coming in terms of property taxes in the downtown area. And actually, this could dramatically improve inner city schools...ad valorem taxes tend to stay in the school district they were generated in, for mysterious reasons.

One additional point, Seattle has funded a lot of streetcar extensions through BID districts, which leverage the future land values caused by streetcar to pay for streetcar today. It's a great solution, although the only negative side affect is that it exacerbates the upheaval in tenants and gentrification process, but that can be looked at as good also. So if you do decide that you want it to pay for yourself, you can structure a taxing mechanism that is best designed to do that. It is possible in Oklahoma, case in point: how Tulsa has funded its new downtown ballpark. It can be controversial, but it gets the job done.

[Kerry]

If nothing else it concentrates growth which is the best kind of growth

[Larry OKC]

Soonerguru:

Don't get me wrong, even though they are incredibly expensive, I am not against the Streetcars. I'm not saying that there isn't any development with Streetcars or not even substantial development because of it (that wouldn't exist elsewhere). Development will certainly occur on it (just like it does when you build major streets, highways etc). It does allow another spot for concentration. No doubt.

The only thing I would take slight issue with is "Private residential, commercial and retail development in the urban core is essential for this city to grow." The City has grown without that for quite a while now without it being concentrated in the urban core, why do we suddenly need it there now? If you want the urban core to grow, that makes since, but then again, it seems like we are back to "cannibalizing" to a certain extent again. Some retail stores give great thought to how closely they put a new location to an existing one because they know a certain percentage will shift (now you have to pay for 2 buildings, 2 sets of management, staff, utilities etc, but do the number of new customers justify it?) Now apparently this doesn't bother McDonald's in the least because they have keep opening them up (seems like there is at least one and sometimes 2 of them at the same exit. Seemingly along every exit there on I-40 west of the I-244/44). LOL.

[shane453]

The only thing I would take slight issue with is "Private residential, commercial and retail development in the urban core is essential for this city to grow." The City has grown without that for quite a while now without it being concentrated in the urban core, why do we suddenly need it there now?

Larry I know you have read this a million times on this forum so I'm not sure why you're asking, but growth will not be healthy and our city will not be attractive to the incoming generation if we do not have urban core growth. We need it there now because it is in high-demand nationally among college graduates and empty nesters, both important demographics. This doesn't require a stop to fringe growth- we can continue trying to live in a faux-pastoral fantasy land while destroying actual countryside. But if we want to attract new people and businesses we will need a more developed core. There is a reason why there are so many cities trying to pursue streetcars, light rail, and other kickstarters for urban development.

[Larry OKC]

Shane, I still am not understanding why the sudden change with the "incoming generation"? By the time this gets built (am speaking more generally of the whole Core to Shore, which is a 30 to 50 year plan), who's to say the pendulum won't have swung back the other way (perhaps multiple times)? Even when talking about mass transit, it has a similar time line as Core to Shore. Seems like we are doing this because it is the "in" thing to do right now?