Choctaw Town Square

[Roger S]

So what happens ou48A when the Walmart Super Center comes in and your neighbor sell off his 5 acre land and they put 5 house on it, and your next neighbor sells off his 5 acres and they put 7 houses on it, and then someone buys up 100 acres and they drop in a 330 house subdivision? How long do you stick around before it starts feeling "too crowded". This is what is going to happen to Choctaw.

That is already happening without the Walmart. I would say the Walmart is the direct result of the influx of new subdivisions in that area.

[Dubya61]

wrong. I do not feel that way. There's a difference between suburbanites who want to live in suburbia and people that want to live on the fringe of the city with little people.

Do you mean "few" people, instead of "little" people? or should I be insulted?
So these suburbanites who want to live in suburbia -- are they the same NIMBYs who don't want grocery stores to move into their area in Edmond?
Did they move to Choctaw, Oklahoma (with an estimated 1,676 employees in the city of Choctaw, per the city's own fact sheet) thinking there was a lot of amenities out there? Why did they move there? to get away from the hustle and bustle that Wal-Mart will bring?
I simply cannot get my mind wrapped around that concept.
One does not build a bear trap, secure their ankle in the bear trap and then (with a clear mind) complain about the bear trap.
If you can't get the analogy, substitute the words "food desert" for "bear trap."

[ou48A]

So what happens ou48A when the Walmart Super Center comes in and your neighbor sell off his 5 acre land and they put 5 house on it, and your next neighbor sells off his 5 acres and they put 7 houses on it, and then someone buys up 100 acres and they drop in a 330 house subdivision? How long do you stick around before it starts feeling "too crowded". This is what is going to happen to Choctaw.

Wouldn't you like to move to the country - and stay in the country without having to move again? You are supporting the very thing that is destroying why you moved there in the first place.

So what happens is that smart people buy enough land and at a distance far enough out that they don’t face that situation. Some are not smart enough to see what coming and make mistakes but they often eventually sell their land for a large capital gain and move on to greener pastures or by the time the Wal Mart comes they move to the old folks home with a lot of happy memories.

[ylouder]

A lot of good post from JTF in this thread. I live in eastern ok county and we've had neighbors who cheered this walmart and the loves truck stop, etc.

I don't get it. We all paid alot of money to buy a larger parcel of land, the expenses of upkeep on it, the daily expense of getting kids and yourself to work and school.

And then you want to say we need a mcds or grocery store open up 1/2 a mile from your house because you don't like driving?

Why not just live in any other part of the city or any other suburb that already has all of those things? Is this Choctaw Walmart going to be so much greater with better merchandise than the already existing Walmart just a few miles down the highway in Spencer (which is a really new and nice Walmart), or leaps and bounds better than the i40 and sooner Walmart, or the Walmart on 240? Is mcdonalds going to make better burgers for a new location than the old location a few miles away, is the gas station going to have better gas?

Save yourself the enormous daily commute, the enormous cost in gas, and buy a house next too all of those things if you want them convenient to your house. Or don’t move out to the country and then complain about you not having a place to buy crap at the drop of a hat.

Because next stop is - this place is too crowded, lets move further out. Man I wish I didn’t have to drive 10 minutes to get a burger, I need some crap at Walmart because I cant make list and I don’t want the hassle of driving for 15 minutes. Yay Walmart is opening up soon and we are getting another mcd’s and subway. This place is too crowded.

[ylouder]

So what happens is that smart people buy enough land and at a distance far enough out that they don’t face that situation. Some are not smart enough to see what coming and make mistakes but they often eventually sell their land for a large capital gain and move on to greener pastures or by the time the Wal Mart comes they move to the old folks home with a lot of happy memories.

This makes no sense and you should feel dumber for saying it.

[Plutonic Panda]

I'll respond to this absurdity once I can get to a computer. There is nothing but bias on here and neglecting the this does not have to be bad and can be very good for the town.

All I will say for now is, if you want country and don't want to move - go out to the panhandle, western oklahoma, southeastern oklahoma, south western oklahoma.... I know people that have lived there throughout their entire life and haven't even seen a single home to up around them.

If you want country and don't want development, 50-100 miles within a major metro area isn't the place for you. You could even locate 50-75 miles away from the core and you probably won't ever see anything developed around you.

I'm in class right now, but when I get out, I'll respond with more detail, even though most won't respond as it always seems to be when I really make my case to defend suburbs which I have done in the past here and no one was able or bothered to attempt and dispute any of it.

[Dubya61]

I'll respond to this absurdity once I can get to a computer. There is nothing but bias on here and neglecting the this does not have to be bad and can be very good for the town.

All I will say for now is, if you want country and don't want to move - go out to the panhandle, western oklahoma, southeastern oklahoma, south western oklahoma.... I know people that have lived there throughout their entire life and haven't even seen a single home to up around them.

If you want country and don't want development, 50-100 miles within a major metro area isn't the place for you. You could even locate 50-75 miles away from the core and you probably won't ever see anything developed around you.

I'm in class right now, but when I get out, I'll respond with more detail, even though most won't respond as it always seems to be when I really make my case to defend suburbs which I have done in the past here and no one was able or bothered to attempt and dispute any of it.

Please don't respond with more absurdity. If you want to live close to a McDonalds or Wal-Mart, then MOVE there. Not the other way around.

[Plutonic Panda]

This makes no sense and you should feel dumber for saying it.

its pretty clear what he is saying. You want country and have it stay that way, move out.... way out. Not 30< miles from a major metro and expect it to stay country forever.

JTF said he wants to be able to buy a country home and never have to move because the surrounding area becomes developed, well I have news for you: YOU CAN!!!!!

[Plutonic Panda]

Please don't respond with more absurdity. If you want to live close to a McDonalds or Wal-Mart, then MOVE there. Not the other way around.

i expected that typical move closer to where you want crap. I'll respond in a couple hours with reason and balance.

[Dubya61]

i expected that typical move closer to where you want crap. I'll respond in a couple hours with reason and balance.

How is that "crap"? Is it not more logical for a person who want's a supercenter (averages from 100K to 250K square feet PLUS a monstrous parking lot) closer to them to move their (1K - 2.5K) square feet residence?

[ou48A]

This makes no sense and you should feel dumber for saying it.

So you hate the very idea of freedom and rights of individual’s mistakes and all to choice how and where they live.
You sir are the stupid one and very extremely so, along with the guy you gave you a like for your post!

[ou48A]

its pretty clear what he is saying. You want country and have it stay that way, move out.... way out. Not 30< miles from a major metro and expect it to stay country forever.

JTF said he wants to be able to buy a country home and never have to move because the surrounding area becomes developed, well I have news for you: YOU CAN!!!!!

The urbanites are too hard headed to ever understand that as long as the individual has freedom in this nation there is no way they are ever going to be able to tell people where they should live.
Live and let live…. They hate the very idea….. They are self-centered people who won’t ever stop telling everyone how they think other people should run their lives…….It’s good they are a very tiny minority of the population and that very few people give their way of thinking any serious thoughts.

[Dubya61]

The urbanites are too hard headed to ever understand that as long as the individual has freedom in this nation there is no way they are ever going to be able to tell people where they should live.
Live and let live…. They hate the very idea….. They are self-centered people who won’t ever stop telling everyone how they think other people should run their lives…….It’s good they are a very tiny minority of the population and that very few people give their way of thinking any serious thoughts.

That's a great attempt at misdirection. It has nothing to do with freedom. Well, actually, it has EVERYTHING to do with freedom. Can you imagine how much more free people would be if they weren't slaves to their cars (or car notes)? Can you imagine just how much more free people would be if their cities collected property taxes in the most efficient manner so that people who lived within their city limits were provided many more services at an extremely lower cost? Can you imagine just how much more free people would feel if they were permitted to live, work, shop and play in the same structure at a reasonable cost or were free to live 30 minutes away from it if they wanted to? What if these guys who currently live in Choctaw moved there to be 30 minutes away from a Wal-Mart but still were able to afford a reasonable commute to their job on Tinker or the CBD? Now, their freedom (to live 30 minutes away from a Wal-Mart) is being restricted. Guess they'll have to move! Guess they've got that freedom. Hey! Maybe those NIMBY's have it right after all!
It's a shame that they're a very tiny minority of what must be an incredibly ignorant population who can't see that these urbanites (that's not what they are, at all -- even those who love and live in the rural and sub-urban transects are adherents to new urbanism) have it right, after all. It's those who live in but don't love the rural and sub-urban transects that keep inviting in the Wal-Marts!
What evs. Its apparent to me that those who don't understand new urbanism seem to think there's only three types of humans: the city drudges, the unibombers and Ward Cleaver's family.

[ou48A]

That's a great attempt at misdirection. It has nothing to do with freedom. Well, actually, it has EVERYTHING to do with freedom. Can you imagine how much more free people would be if they weren't slaves to their cars (or car notes)? Can you imagine just how much more free people would be if their cities collected property taxes in the most efficient manner so that people who lived within their city limits were provided many more services at an extremely lower cost? Can you imagine just how much more free people would feel if they were permitted to live, work, shop and play in the same structure at a reasonable cost or were free to live 30 minutes away from it if they wanted to? What if these guys who currently live in Choctaw moved there to be 30 minutes away from a Wal-Mart but still were able to afford a reasonable commute to their job on Tinker or the CBD? Now, their freedom (to live 30 minutes away from a Wal-Mart) is being restricted. Guess they'll have to move! Guess they've got that freedom. Hey! Maybe those NIMBY's have it right after all!
It's a shame that they're a very tiny minority of what must be an incredibly ignorant population who can't see that these urbanites (that's not what they are, at all -- even those who love and live in the rural and sub-urban transects are adherents to new urbanism) have it right, after all. It's those who live in but don't love the rural and sub-urban transects that keep inviting in the Wal-Marts!
What evs. Its apparent to me that those who don't understand new urbanism seem to think there's only three types of humans: the city drudges, the unibombers and Ward Cleaver's family.

If people want to choose a life that causes them to be slaves to their cars and live 20 miles from the Burger King….. let them….. That’s their right in a free country and some people can easily afford it.


When you say ”Can you imagine” …….What you and others are pushing is a Utopian society that isn’t even a realistic outcome for a very significant % of our nation’s population….!

[Plutonic Panda]

How is that "crap"? Is it not more logical for a person who want's a supercenter (averages from 100K to 250K square feet PLUS a monstrous parking lot) closer to them to move their (1K - 2.5K) square feet residence?

Ok, look at this.

Could I move to McDonalds or a Walmart if I wanted to be closer to one? Sure. What is close for you might be far for someone else or vice versa. Close is a broad term.

Secondly: if your logic was followed of just move closer, than everyone would live downtown to be closer to work, school, and their entertainment which wouldn't require large highways and everyone would live right on top of each other. Something you and every other urbanist seems to push and attempt to force on people no matter what position they take. They(you) may try to say that isn't the case, but it's bullsh!t. I know it, you know it - I wasn't born yesterday man.

I can't tell you how many times I've said this on here, I WANT OPTIONS! Someone living in Choctaw shouldn't be deprived of a particular store, notably a good grocer, because you think they should just live closer to what they want. That is not fair and you are trying to take away options from people.

Look at how prosperous Dallas is; it is also sprawled out. Houston, Atlanta, Jacksonville, L.A., etc.... you better tell all of those cities, don't build any new stores or expand services because if people want those things, they need to just move closer. See how popular you get.

If you and Sid Burgess want to live on top of each other in a concrete jungle, great. But don't deprive me and other people who want a nice, peaceful, suburban setting with large setback filled in with green vegetation, and served by large 6 lane arterial roads and wide highways.

Let California fund it's 100 billion dollar HSR and let Texas finish it's 50 billion dollars worth of highway projects. Last I checked, more people are moving to Texas than California. I don't blame that on the HSR either, I applaud Cali for building it. My problem is when people get their panties in a wad for a 5 billion dollar highway project screaming "IT'S TOO MUCH". Yes, I understand it cost less mile per mile. My point remains valid.

This Walmart is being built for the City of Choctaw. It will be used by thousands of people and provide money back to the economy. Walmart is one of the largest single tax payers out there. If you have any personal vendetta against Walmart, don't hate the player, hate the game. The game is people who elected the city council who approved the store to be built.

You can't refute the facts. The facts are, this will be great for the city of Choctaw. A grocer is built to serve existing housing, not the other way around. The sheer fact JTF even suggest Walmart is being built for houses that aren't even there yet is a joke. I'm 20 years old and I know as much to know that isn't the case. Don't even try that with me.

The city of Choctaw can have typical neighborhoods like this



and still be a prosperous, attractive city to live in.

It needs balance. The core or "downtown" of Choctaw should be urban and making up a small percentage of the city land wise with the majority making up what I posted above with mixed-use developments such as Chisholm Creek Development. The city will be built how they want it to.

I always find it funny how people like JTF point to Europe of how to build sustainable, well, last I checked, the economy in Europe isn't doing so hot. The economy in the horrible, awful, cookie cutter, suburban cesspool known as Texaaaaaas on the other hand though...... do I have to say it?

I speak for what I believe in. I speak my mind. I want places like Seattle here in OKC to make people like Sid happy and have great pedestrian corridors. I want a greenbelt like the one in Minneapolis here in OKC. I want light-rail here in the city to serve people who either can't afford cars or just don't want them. I also happen to love cities in Europe and even want to experience living in them one day.

I also want people like you to have places they love and enjoy about our city. I want it to prosper and boom, but just as we need/want a dense, urban core with mass transit, we also need/want a vast highway network serving suburban communities.

Now if you don't want to pay for those highways, than the majority of the city shouldn't have to pay for a streetcar most will never use.

[Plutonic Panda]

So what happens ou48A when the Walmart Super Center comes in and your neighbor sell off his 5 acre land and they put 5 house on it, and your next neighbor sells off his 5 acres and they put 7 houses on it, and then someone buys up 100 acres and they drop in a 330 house subdivision? How long do you stick around before it starts feeling "too crowded". This is what is going to happen to Choctaw.

What happens within 30> miles of a major metropolitan area? Hopefully the city grows.

Wouldn't you like to move to the country - and stay in the country without having to move again? You are supporting the very thing that is destroying why you moved there in the first place.

Ummmmmmm..... you can???? This country is not small, there is huge abundance in every state where there is vast farmland that will likely never be touched by development or subdivisions.

Take a guess where these photos were taken from...

[Dubya61]

If people want to choose a life that causes them to be slaves to their cars and live 20 miles from the Burger King….. let them….. That’s their right in a free country and some people can easily afford it.


When you say ”Can you imagine” …….What you and others are pushing is a Utopian society that isn’t even a realistic outcome for a very significant % of our nation’s population….!

I think you're sort of making my point with your post.
If people want to choose a life that causes them to be slaves to their cars and live 20 miles from the Burger King, let them. If, however, people move in next to them and say, "You know what we need here? We need a Burger King," how are they to fight back? Become the hated NIMBYs? That person that says they need a closer Burger King should move closer to the Burger King, instead!
Also, when you describe my statements as unrealistic, why is it unrealistic? Shouldn't we shoot for the stars rather then being satisfied with enjoying a night light as entertainment? The ability for a city to provide services is contingent upon it's ability to garner income. The city that can best garner income has properties that have achieved their best possible use regarding property value and has expenditure requirements that are the least onerous. Countless people that contribute to this forum have mentioned how hard it is for the City of Oklahoma City to provide adequate services to its residents because it's so miserably spread (sprawled) out. If it's an unobtainable utopia to hope that the City of Oklahoma City to provide adequate services to its residents, then please consider me a dreamer. I'll tell you, though, that one of the benefits of adhering to a new urbanism philosophy in managing a municipality, is an increased revenue base to the city by allowing every piece of property to reach it's maximum potential.

[Plutonic Panda]

That's a great attempt at misdirection. It has nothing to do with freedom. Well, actually, it has EVERYTHING to do with freedom. Can you imagine how much more free people would be if they weren't slaves to their cars (or car notes)? Can you imagine just how much more free people would be if their cities collected property taxes in the most efficient manner so that people who lived within their city limits were provided many more services at an extremely lower cost? Can you imagine just how much more free people would feel if they were permitted to live, work, shop and play in the same structure at a reasonable cost or were free to live 30 minutes away from it if they wanted to? What if these guys who currently live in Choctaw moved there to be 30 minutes away from a Wal-Mart but still were able to afford a reasonable commute to their job on Tinker or the CBD? Now, their freedom (to live 30 minutes away from a Wal-Mart) is being restricted. Guess they'll have to move! Guess they've got that freedom. Hey! Maybe those NIMBY's have it right after all!
It's a shame that they're a very tiny minority of what must be an incredibly ignorant population who can't see that these urbanites (that's not what they are, at all -- even those who love and live in the rural and sub-urban transects are adherents to new urbanism) have it right, after all. It's those who live in but don't love the rural and sub-urban transects that keep inviting in the Wal-Marts!
What evs. Its apparent to me that those who don't understand new urbanism seem to think there's only three types of humans: the city drudges, the unibombers and Ward Cleaver's family.

You're wrong. Dead wrong. OU48a is right. If you look at the requirements and "rules" of new urbanism, it's almost like the planner of the community would be a dictator.

[Dubya61]

That is not fair and you are trying to take away options from people.

It's odd that you say I'm trying to take away options from people when you say the people living in Choctaw (who are probably there on purpose -- I'm pretty sure they weren't forced to move to some FEMA camp called Choctaw) should have their peaceful little hamlet disturbed by a Wal-Mart SuperCenter (because that's the be-all-end-all-acme of 'Murican culture?!?) and those who don't like it should move to the PANHANDLE!?!?!?! Who's trying to take away options from people?!?!?! I'm pretty sure that those who want to live 5 seconds away from a Wal-Mart still have that option in lots of other places!
Stop it with the outrageous statements. Take a deep breath and step away from the keyboard and think some more about who's losing what with the construction of this new Wal-Mart SuperCenter.

[Dubya61]

You're wrong. Dead wrong. OU48a is right. If you look at the requirements and "rules" of new urbanism, it's almost like the planner of the community would be a dictator.

And yet, the city plays the part of a dictator already, with zoning and fees, etc. New urbanism isn't the new totalitarian regime. Quit acting like we really have any real freedom in the first place. Do you like Bricktown? Do you think that just happens serendipitously without any rules? Should Randy Hogan have been allowed to build just whatever crap he wanted to on land he was virtually given by the city?

[Plutonic Panda]

It's odd that you say I'm trying to take away options from people when you say the people living in Choctaw (who are probably there on purpose -- I'm pretty sure they weren't forced to move to some FEMA camp called Choctaw) should have their peaceful little hamlet disturbed by a Wal-Mart SuperCenter (because that's the be-all-end-all-acme of 'Murican culture?!?) and those who don't like it should move to the PANHANDLE!?!?!?! Who's trying to take away options from people?!?!?! I'm pretty sure that those who want to live 5 seconds away from a Wal-Mart still have that option in lots of other places!
Stop it with the outrageous statements. Take a deep breath and step away from the keyboard and think some more about who's losing what with the construction of this new Wal-Mart SuperCenter.

Did you even read what I posted? Perhaps I need to copy and paste it.

You keep saying stop with the outrageous statements, but you (a) don't refer to which statements you're talking about and (b) provide any insight as to why they're outrageous. You seem to love using broad terms to attempt and act like you're providing some kind of evidence but in reality, is the exact opposite. Go back through and tell me exactly what is outrageous and I'll respond.

[Dubya61]

Did you even read what I posted? Perhaps I need to copy and paste it.

You keep saying stop with the outrageous statements, but you (a) don't refer to which statements you're talking about and (b) provide any insight as to why they're outrageous. You seem to love using broad terms to attempt and act like you're providing some kind of evidence but in reality, is the exact opposite. Go back through and tell me exactly what is outrageous and I'll respond.

the part I quoted. "take away options from people."

[Plutonic Panda]

And yet, the city plays the part of a dictator already, with zoning and fees, etc. New urbanism isn't the new totalitarian regime. Quit acting like we really have any real freedom in the first place. Do you like Bricktown? Do you think that just happens serendipitously without any rules? Should Randy Hogan have been allowed to build just whatever crap he wanted to on land he was virtually given by the city?

There's a difference between guidelines and denying buildings to be built in a certain district vs. a building style that only accepts one single method of style through-out the entire community and has rules like every single fence surrounding a park being Wrought iron and 3 1/2 feet high or something like that. I mean seriously....

New Urbanism

Have a look at that. I'm at work right now or I'd provide you with the link(which I'll try to find if you can't) but there is a huge PDF document defining EXACTLY what you can and can't do when building in a new urbanist community. There are no variances or exceptions... it's their way or the highway.

[Mel]

Where are the pictures from?

[Dubya61]

There's a difference between guidelines and denying buildings to be built in a certain district vs. a building style that only accepts one single method of style through-out the entire community and has rules like every single fence surrounding a park being Wrought iron and 3 1/2 feet high or something like that. I mean seriously....

New Urbanism

Have a look at that. I'm at work right now or I'd provide you with the link(which I'll try to find if you can't) but there is a huge PDF document defining EXACTLY what you can and can't do when building in a new urbanist community. There are no variances or exceptions... it's their way or the highway.

So, I'm no new urbanist priest or acolyte, but what is it that you want to happen that you think new urbanism prevents?