Choctaw Town Square

[Plutonic Panda]

the part I quoted. "take away options from people."

You are taking options away from people.

You're saying live near or "not far away from" which isn't special except to each person. So what is close for me, might be far away for you.

I will say this again. If you want people to live closer to where they want to be, which varies, so you can't define that.... it has to be everything they want/need/desire. Food, play, work, education, etc....... you want those things, what would you say? Just live closer? How could you do that with suburban layout? You can't. It takes too much space. I know that and you know that. If you didn't want it to take too much space, you'd urbanize it - removing the suburban lifestyle. That is removing an option for someone.

It isn't as simple as "just move closer". You either know that(which I think you do) or you aren't putting too much thought into it. You need to actually think about what you're saying here.

[Dubya61]

You are taking options away from people.

You're saying live near or "not far away from" which isn't special except to each person. So what is close for me, might be far away for you.

I will say this again. If you want people to live closer to where they want to be, which varies, so you can't define that.... it has to be everything they want/need/desire. Food, play, work, education, etc....... you want those things, what would you say? Just live closer? How could you do that with suburban layout? You can't. It takes too much space. I know that and you know that. If you didn't want it to take too much space, you'd urbanize it - removing the suburban lifestyle. That is removing an option for someone.

It isn't as simple as "just move closer". You either know that(which I think you do) or you aren't putting too much thought into it. You need to actually think about what you're saying here.

and yet you're saying "just move to the panhandle."

[Plutonic Panda]

So, I'm no new urbanist priest or acolyte, but what is it that you want to happen that you think new urbanism prevents?

I don't think it prevents anything besides someone who wants a suburban lifestyle living inside a new urbanism community; to which I'd respond with: move to suburbia.

I actually think new urbanism is great for some cities and I am almost finished with a master plan with some renderings I'm giving to Charles Lamb(mayor of Edmond) that would essentially turn the entire perimeter of downtown Edmond into a large new urbanism community. Everything inside of Kelly-2nd Street-Bryant-Danforth would be pure new urbanism served by streetcars, bike lanes, large bike corridors, a couple of gondolas, and ped. friendly features.

[Plutonic Panda]

and yet you're saying "just move to the panhandle."

Yes.... If you want a pure country life-style that won't ever be threatened by development, move further out. It doesn't have to the panhandle, but the option is there and I'm not trying to take it away.

[Plutonic Panda]

Where are the pictures from?

New Jersey.

[HangryHippo]

If people want to choose a life that causes them to be slaves to their cars and live 20 miles from the Burger King….. let them….. That’s their right in a free country and some people can easily afford it.


When you say ”Can you imagine” …….What you and others are pushing is a Utopian society that isn’t even a realistic outcome for a very significant % of our nation’s population….!

But that's where you're wrong. No one can easily afford that in reality. It's so heavily subsidized that they're not having to afford it. It's afforded for them, if that makes sense.

[HangryHippo]

What happens within 30> miles of a major metropolitan area? Hopefully the city grows.

Ummmmmmm..... you can???? This country is not small, there is huge abundance in every state where there is vast farmland that will likely never be touched by development or subdivisions.

Take a guess where these photos were taken from...

I hate to rain on your parade, but if something is farmland, it has ALREADY BEEN DEVELOPED.

[Dubya61]

To take a step back, I think I’m getting drawn away from what was my original position before it was parsed and argued.
My original opinion, by the way, is that there’s nothing wrong with Wal-Mart going to Choctaw. This whole development was a wonderful concept that eventually became just a Wal-Mart SuperCenter. There’s nothing wrong with a Wal-Mart SuperCenter, but it could have been so much more (and still included a better planned Wal-Mart SuperCenter), but it’s not. The post I put up that seemed to attract so much anger was that the residents of Choctaw will not be gaining much in the way of a great store so much closer. This will cut off about 15 minutes off their drive time to get groceries, etc., and the associated traffic may even make it so that it will add to their drive time to go anywhere else – and for what? Wal-Mart groceries?!? Ask bchris02 what’s so great about Wal-Mart groceries? Oh, wait, he thinks anything farther than a 10 minute drive for groceries (when you VOLUNTARILY moved to that location in the first place) makes your residence location a food desert! You want that kind of freedom? to make incredibly stupid residence location choices? Great! THAT’s what American military might defended – that and the right for the Westboro Baptist Church to say and do whatever it is they do in the name of freedom of speech. Keep in mind that you exercised that freedom in the name of suburban sprawl and it has some other costs: increased municipal infrastructure, so be prepared to pay more in taxes to the city or get less services from them. If the Wal-Mart SuperCenter is being done optimally, it’ll make more money for the city than the infrastructure costs.
Here’s some history up thread.

Well this is not going to be a convention shopping area. They've eliminated the strip mall element from the shopping area. They're rebuilding a vintage town square, like many small towns in Oklahoma and Texas have. I think it's great that Choctaw is being proactive and is really trying to lure commercial development in a sustainable, well-planned way. Something that won't turn into the abandoned strip center you mentioned.

Bradshaw is a really good developer who is usually involved in interesting things, and he believes in urban development (particularly downtown OKC), so he's probably involved in this. I think Moore and Yukon, both strip mall central, should look at what Choctaw is doing with this.

I only moved here a few years ago and I love what I know about Choctaw, hope it keeps growing yet maintains its charm. I have just always been amazed that I grew up in rural southeastern Oklahoma on a farm and we had city water (actually a member of a rural water district, but its still city water) and we moved here (what i call the city) and now have a water well. I had chickens, cows, caught our own fish for the fish fry every weekend, never swam in a pool but did in lots of horse tanks, and never had a water well till i moved to the city. I actually have a great job, live in a very nice home in a very upscale neighborhood in Choctaw (my family can’t believe that my shop out back is bricked), but i will always be from the country. I enjoy Choctaw every day and hope to live here for a long time, but would like to see some shops and dining options open up around here in time.

We are looking into building a home in choctaw, coming from a small town, I am a little worried that this town square IS going to turn Choctaw into a new mwc, which we dont want to live in. We want to stay with the small town atmosphere, low traffic, low crime, and a little bit of a drive away from a highway. Should we look into other small towns instead?

I may be a bit biased but living on the outskirts of Harrah I find it to be a good balance between city and town. You get all the town perks like sewage, trash and water, plus a police dept and fire dept along with a nice rural feel since it is a very small town. But the nice thing is it's barely ten minutes from Choctaw, fifteen-twenty minutes to Midwest City and also twenty minutes from Shawnee.

Just kind of a heads up.

Maybe this project was taking so long because they knew this news was about to be confirmed.
Walmart planning to build Supercenter in Choctaw, developer says | News OK

Walmart plans to build a 150,000-square-foot Supercenter in the new Choctaw Town Square development, the developer announced this week. The city of Choctaw and Walmart Real Estate Business Trust entered into a purchase agreement for a site in the northwest corner of the development. The new store will bring jobs and tax revenue to the city, although specifics weren't available Friday. Walmart did not respond to requests Friday to confirm plans for the store. The Supercenter is to open in the spring of 2013, according to Choctaw Town Square LLC. It is part of a larger effort to develop the city's downtown district. Mayor Randy Ross said the development includes a new city hall, landscaped green space, a water park, retail and eating establishments.

Sorry,but this is STUPID!Choctaw doesnt have the population base for a WM and there is allready one just West on 23rd and Douglas.Are they hoping to draw from Jones,Harrah,Nicoma Park?

I agree this is ridiculous, MWC WM is ten miles if that away from Choctaw and while Choctaw could use a state of the art grocery store, Harrah has a perfectly fine Country Boy Market that is a very large supermarket.

I feel for Jeff Williams of Williams grocery and Danny Boyle at Country Boy, they've both been so kind to the communities around us that I pray the business they've built will be maintained.

I live here in Choctaw, and am really excited about this project. I would LOVE to see a grocery store- maybe a wal-mart market or something other than Williams. Especially down near the Phillips 66 on Choctaw Road and 29th. All of us over here would love to be able to run up to a grocery store of some kind and be back within a few minutes rather tha 45 mins of driving round trip to williams or target. BUT back to the Town Square project...

As a resident of Choctaw, I would love to see some more places to eat and some shopping. We really need to beef this place up. Eventually a casino... a dog track... something to bring in some business- but this is a good start. I'm so glad to see something finally happening around here. And by the way- a community pool would be great too!

Anyway...Now I have gotten off track. I love Choctaw. I want this place to grow. Property values can go up (now that I have a house here..

WOW! This project is HORRIBLE! The suburbs continue to have no character and push the use of the automobile with parking as the most important aspects of the sites.

They can try to make cool colors to make the site look good, but it is still cookie cutter sprawl!

Would you rather all the people in Choctaw commute 20-30 miles to get their groceries?

That has nothing to do with the layout of the development. Honestly by that logic, you would want something that is able to be walked to so you don't even have to get in a vehicle at all, but alas, I'm sure this development will not be friendly to pedestrians.

Wait what? That is the only alternative? That's funny.

I live in this area and im kinda bitter sweet about it all. Yeah its closer, yeah its more convienent, it will be good for tax dollars for the city BUT.....

I think most people who live in this area moved here to get away from the city and didnt want to move to one of the other suburbs moore, norman, edmond, yukon that ALL feel like your still living in the city. I've always thought why have a 30 minute plus commute to work to live in the exact type of neighborhood, etc that you would get in the city. I've lived in edmond before and its slightly sad the more and more developed this side of town gets the less rural it feels. I dont need a 7/11 on every corner, i like stop signs instead of lights, and i dont need a strip mall or a walmart every couple of miles. If i want that i could go to any of the other 15 walmart shopping districts in the city.

People like convenience and it will drive up house and property values, but sometimes the quality of life or lifestlye you like gets lost in the process.

This whole plan is sh!t, i've said it. Between all the Political tripe in the city office, and now the City of Choctaw is trying to catch up with what every other community is doing around it. Can't hate them for wanting better, but don't send in a planner who just doesn't know what they're doing or talking about. Pipe dreams Choctaw, pipe dreams.

I'm not against the idea of Choctaw having a Wal*Mart. What I am against is POOR PLANNING.

Choctaw is the perfect place to start walkability discussions. Clearly they are already thinking along those lines because they already put in two roundabouts and have a decent foundation started along Main St. Then they screwed that up and approved this project. I'm not saying, don't build the project, I am saying move it 3,500 feet east.

I'm not against Choctaw having this development. You say it's better than nothing, but why start out on the wrong foot with poor planning.

Kerry's point is not nonsense. Urbanity has nothing to do with the population of a place; it's all about how buildings are oriented, with infrastructure being built on the human scale.

Urban simply means the presence of people versus rural land; people have to get these negative notions of huge places that are dirty out of their minds when they hear the word urban.

From Choctaw itself: this is more urban than this just a few blocks away.

Yes. If you don't want to live in "Urban" don't move to the "City". The City of Choctaw, needs to recognize that it is harder to maintain City level of services when properties are used so poorly. Low-density is just more expensive. Dramatically so.

The founders of Choctaw certainly didn't build it in a rural way.
Choctaw County Historical Society Photos

CHOCTAW

A community emerged on the east eighty acres of his land, a postal designation for Choctaw City was issued in early 1890, and town lots were surveyed and laid out. When he relinquished title in 1892, a village of approximately 112 and a thousand inhabitants of the surrounding township supported twenty businesses.

In 1892 with only 112 residents that had 20 businesses. Today they have over 11,000 people and I'll bet less than 20 businesses. Progress?

[Plutonic Panda]

I hate to rain on your parade, but if something is farmland, it has ALREADY BEEN DEVELOPED.

Ok... you know what I mean. Rural settings is what I getting to. Whether it be farmland or a forest... the option is there...

here is an example of rural Jersey

[Plutonic Panda]

To take a step back, I think I’m getting drawn away from what was my original position before it was parsed and argued.
My original opinion, by the way, is that there’s nothing wrong with Wal-Mart going to Choctaw. This whole development was a wonderful concept that eventually became just a Wal-Mart SuperCenter. There’s nothing wrong with a Wal-Mart SuperCenter, but it could have been so much more (and still included a better planned Wal-Mart SuperCenter), but it’s not. The post I put up that seemed to attract so much anger was that the residents of Choctaw will not be gaining much in the way of a great store so much closer. This will cut off about 15 minutes off their drive time to get groceries, etc., and the associated traffic may even make it so that it will add to their drive time to go anywhere else – and for what? Wal-Mart groceries?!? Ask bchris02 what’s so great about Wal-Mart groceries? Oh, wait, he thinks anything farther than a 10 minute drive for groceries (when you VOLUNTARILY moved to that location in the first place) makes your residence location a food desert! You want that kind of freedom? to make incredibly stupid residence location choices? Great! THAT’s what American military might defended – that and the right for the Westboro Baptist Church to say and do whatever it is they do in the name of freedom of speech. Keep in mind that you exercised that freedom in the name of suburban sprawl and it has some other costs: increased municipal infrastructure, so be prepared to pay more in taxes to the city or get less services from them. If the Wal-Mart SuperCenter is being done optimally, it’ll make more money for the city than the infrastructure costs.
Here’s some history up thread.

Than I can agree with you on that. This development could be a lot better no doubt. I thought you were against Choctaw getting a grocery store. That is at least what it sounded like to me.

[Plutonic Panda]

But that's where you're wrong. No one can easily afford that in reality. It's so heavily subsidized that they're not having to afford it. It's afforded for them, if that makes sense.

Ok, but couldn't the same be said for mass transit? No one in reality could afford them, that is why those forms of transit to, are subsidized.

[HangryHippo]

Ok, but couldn't the same be said for mass transit? No one in reality could afford them, that is why those forms of transit to, are subsidized.

I'm not sure it could, actually. You bring up a fair point in that all transit is subsidized, but my point is I think when you take into account the entire system, auto-centric transit probably costs the most overall while also being the most unsustainable.

[Jeepnokc]

But that's where you're wrong. No one can easily afford that in reality. It's so heavily subsidized that they're not having to afford it. It's afforded for them, if that makes sense.

If I understand your post, you are saying something that I have heard others thrown around without any real proof that I have seen. How does the urban subsidize the suburbs? I live in rural OKC and there was until recently not one fire station within 5 miles. We now have a new one 2 miles away. This was built after Rio De bella developed which is a huge neighborhood of smaller lots. When I lived in heritage hills, there were 5-6 stations within 5 miles. I very rarely see an OKC officer out here unless he is running radar on SW 104th. How do you figure in the ticket revenue? The road to my house is one single 2 lane road that also services FFA. (The road in my actual neighborhood as well as the street lights were paid for and are maintained by our HOA) In Heritage Hills, there were roads everywhere and generally only used by those residents whereas the road to my house is a section road. I have no city water nor do I have city sewer where in HH, I had all of those. I don't see how someone can really make the claim that one subsidizes the other without making some pretty big assumptions. There may be studies showing one way or another but they had to make assumptions to base their studies on. Do you attribute I-44 to me? It was there before my house was built and it is used to bring milk and food as well as other supplies into the urban area so how do you divide that? Do you take into account and how would you take it into account that my property taxes are 8x what I was paying in HH? How do you factor that the homes in Rio De Bella are worth far more than homes in many areas of OKC that are denser? How do you factor in that due to the price of the homes, the people have more income (Comparing to the same amount of land in any of the neighborhoods along SW 29th Street) which means they spend more which means they pay more in consumption taxes. How do you balance that with the consumption taxes paid by those living in HH or Crown Heights.



One point also that I think people are missing is that people don't move to the outlying areas to necessarily be away from services. We move because we won't more space than a driveway between us and the neighbor. We move because we want our kids in a different environment or better schools. We move because we are tired of having to worry about drive through crime. We move because we want our kids to be able to ride their bikes further than 5o ft without being on a major road. We move because we don't want the ghetto bird flying over our house every other night. If you develop a gated neighborhood of 5 acres lots in the heart of OKC that were reasonable priced....sign me up to buy one as I miss being close to downtown and the action but at this stage in my life, the quality of life for my kids is more important. (some may feel that being raised in an urban environment is a better quality of life and I am not knocking that...it is merely opinion)

Thus, I am excited about the I44 corridor being developed,,,hell yes. I am excited that they put a Crest at SW 104th, yes. Am I excited that they put a McDonalds there, yep but wished it was Carl Jrs for the breakfasts. Am I excited that Victoria's is opening yes. I chose the neighborhood we live in partially based on the fact that it was only 2 miles from interstate and that I predicted the area would commercially develop.

[ylouder]

One point also that I think people are missing is that people don't move to the outlying areas to necessarily be away from services. We move because we won't more space than a driveway between us and the neighbor. We move because we want our kids in a different environment or better schools. We move because we are tired of having to worry about drive through crime. We move because we want our kids to be able to ride their bikes further than 5o ft without being on a major road. We move because we don't want the ghetto bird flying over our house every other night. If you develop a gated neighborhood of 5 acres lots in the heart of OKC that were reasonable priced....sign me up to buy one as I miss being close to downtown and the action but at this stage in my life, the quality of life for my kids is more important. (some may feel that being raised in an urban environment is a better quality of life and I am not knocking that...it is merely opinion)

Thus, I am excited about the I44 corridor being developed,,,hell yes. I am excited that they put a Crest at SW 104th, yes. Am I excited that they put a McDonalds there, yep but wished it was Carl Jrs for the breakfasts. Am I excited that Victoria's is opening yes. I chose the neighborhood we live in partially based on the fact that it was only 2 miles from interstate and that I predicted the area would commercially develop.

What youre saying makes no sense.

I know exactly the area you live in and I work right by your house.

You cant have a rural lifestyle away from the crime, congestion, ghetto bird flying over and then turn right back around and say that you want a walmart, crest and mcdonalds by your house with easy interstate access. All those amenities bring crime, congestion and the exact opposite reason you had for moving there. What you did is took out a 30 year mortgage to move to an area that gave you a 5 year window before the whole area sucks and you are left with a house on a big treeless lot surrounded by apartments, crime, and crappy schools.

I used to live about a mile away from your neighborhood and look at the crime in the whole westmoore area over the last 20 years. It went from being quite, rural, and safe - to a dense high crime area because people LIKE you who dont get it and are more worried about having a carls jr closer to their front door than maintaining the integrity of the rural setting.

The whole area was 2 lane roads, farms, small subdivisions, no stop lights and little to no traffic. People move there or build houses because 'they love it so much and it so quite' - then turn around and bitch and petition that they need more shopping, more mcdonalds and a more starbucks then say wait what happened to the area. What happened is that you got exactly what you asked for.

[Jeepnokc]

What youre saying makes no sense.

I know exactly the area you live in and I work right by your house.

You cant have a rural lifestyle away from the crime, congestion, ghetto bird flying over and then turn right back around and say that you want a walmart, crest and mcdonalds by your house with easy interstate access. All those amenities bring crime, congestion and the exact opposite reason you had for moving there. What you did is took out a 30 year mortgage to move to an area that gave you a 5 year window before the whole area sucks and you are left with a house on a big treeless lot surrounded by apartments, crime, and crappy schools.

I used to live about a mile away from your neighborhood and look at the crime in the whole westmoore area over the last 20 years. It went from being quite, rural, and safe - to a dense high crime area because people LIKE you who dont get it and are more worried about having a carls jr closer to their front door than maintaining the integrity of the rural setting.

The whole area was 2 lane roads, farms, small subdivisions, no stop lights and little to no traffic. People move there or build houses because 'they love it so much and it so quite' - then turn around and bitch and petition that they need more shopping, more mcdonalds and a more starbucks then say wait what happened to the area. What happened is that you got exactly what you asked for.

You know, I make a sensible post expressing my opinion without attacking anyone and respecting other opinions....

I did get exactly what I asked for which is development going in around me. There is crime everywhere but there is a lot less crime here than where I used to live. Walmarts don't cause crime. How close is the Walmart to NE 23rd and Kelly? No crime in that area. We go to the Walmart in Tricity sometimes.....that whole area is just riddled with crime!! What you don't get is that it isn't about rural...It is about not having super density where the home lots are measured by ft instead of acre. It's about not having your neighbor literally a driveway away on both sides. its about having enough room to have a pool and a workshop and still have some grass in the back yard. If I wanted truly rural...I would have moved much further out, bought 40 acres so I could control the space immediately around me instead of buying some little lot and thinking my world around me is never going to change.

Not sure where you lived but I don't see West Moore being a high crime area. I especially don't see the property values going down. In fact, they have increased in the last 7 years we have lived in our house. I bought a house in an area that anyone with common sense would realize was going to develop. If you have a chip on your shoulder because your property plans didn't turn out the way you wanted...I'm sorry. Maybe you should have bought further out.

You can have Mc Donalds, Walmarts etc and not have the crime. My mother in law lives in neighborhood by 104th and May and parents live of N 27th street (Moore's version of 104th) by I 35and they have all the nearby conveniences and their neighborhoods are very safe. I had far more problems in HH than they have had. There are happy mediums inbetween the extremes.

[RadicalModerate]

^I, too, was sorta country, when country wasn't cool. nor even on the cusp of suburbanization.
Still, I really like the New Urbanism as reflected in the dynamic Local Downtown Renaissance.
Especially, for example, the destruction of that eyesore by a NYC-esque "architect" to put one over on the Prairie Rube Companions.
Back in the day.

And I never shop at any form of Walmart.
(except, occasionally, for the random Rotisserie Chicken or to glean a bag of cheap Ciabatta Rolls)
(and the last time that occurred was about a year ago =)
(a long, long time away from a place called Choctaw
in a galaxy far, far away =)

(sorry, for any zookeepers that might have been offended by this contextural injection into an issue of such seriousness)

One question about the Planned Development, out there on old US 62 (aka NE 23, the):
Are sidewalks and proper crossing signals included in the plan?
(not to mention proper watershed/drainage concerns?)

[jn1780]

A lot of people move into rural areas knowing the city is eventually going to catch up with them, but they often get more land and house for their money and when these businesses move in they see their land values go up.
Not saying I like this kind of development. Personally I like city life, but its an over simplification to say their moving to the country to escape the noise and traffic of the city. Until gas is over 4 or 5 dollars a gallon it is still economically friendly to anyone who wants a big house and large plot of land they can't afford in the city.

[Jeepnokc]

^I, too, was sorta country, when country wasn't cool. nor even on the cusp of suburbanization.
Still, I really like the New Urbanism as reflected in the dynamic Local Downtown Renaissance.
Especially, for example, the destruction of that eyesore by a NYC-esque "architect" to put one over on the Prairie Rube Companions.
Back in the day.

And I never shop at any form of Walmart.
(except, occasionally, for the random Rotisserie Chicken or to glean a bag of cheap Ciabatta Rolls)
(and the last time that occurred was about a year ago =)
(a long, long time away from a place called Choctaw
in a galaxy far, far away =)

(sorry, for any zookeepers that might have been offended by this contextural injection into an issue of such seriousness)

One question about the Planned Development, out there on old US 62 (aka NE 23, the):
Are sidewalks and proper crossing signals included in the plan?
(not to mention proper watershed/drainage concerns?)

I love what's going on downtown. My wife was commenting the other day about how nice it would be to still live in Gatewood with the Plaza District thriving. More than likely after the kids are gone...we will end up back downtown somewhere.

[RadicalModerate]

^ Just give it time . . . and by then you may have the opportunity to repurchase your dream house at ten times the price.
(and it will be a bargain =)

Or . . . Move out next to Choctaw Lake.
Where the elite meet to shop at Walmart with proper drainage control. =)
(and a golf course of sorts =)
plus what used to be a train track/railroad museum.

[bombermwc]

Guess what? Some people like urban living, some people like suburban living, some people like rural living. Some even like suburban living in a rural area. SHOCK! I'm amazed to see that people actually enjoy living in different kinds of areas, who knew!

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

Surprise. I check in on this thread, and once again I'm agog that a topic about CHOCTAW is full of urban assholery.

Seriously. It's gone full retard.

1. Walmart feels that it's a worthwhile investment.
2. The people that live in Choctaw WANT THIS TO HAPPEN.

The end.

[Just the facts]

Surprise. I check in on this thread, and once again I'm agog that a topic about CHOCTAW is full of urban assholery.

Seriously. It's gone full retard.

1. Walmart feels that it's a worthwhile investment.
2. The people that live in Choctaw WANT THIS TO HAPPEN.

The end.

Do the people in Choctaw want this to happen?

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

What do you care?

[Just the facts]

If I understand your post, you are saying something that I have heard others thrown around without any real proof that I have seen. How does the urban subsidize the suburbs?

Here is your answer. I can't make you watch it but if you really want to know the answer to your question you will watch it. It's not so much that urban subsidizes suburban, it is that suburban is funded through a tax Ponzi scheme and urban is self-funding.

[okclee]

^^ JTF do you still live in the suburbs? I know at one time you did, because you couldn't sell your house or you would lose money.