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Thread: County Jail

  1. #76

    Default Re: Oklahoma County Jail Expansion

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry View Post
    You don't pay the tax based on if your client is in jail. You get a 15% tax on your hourly rate. It would then be up to you to absorb the cost or pass it on to your customers. That 15% would then be used to fund the new jail. After that the money would be used for anti-crime education. Bail bondsmen would pay a gross receipts tax or a percentage of the bail as a tax. They to would be given the choice of absorbing the cost or passing it on to the customer.
    My practice has very little to do with criminal law. I have one case in the office right now which is criminal, and only involved one overnight stay in the drunk tank for my client as far as jail time. Why should my divorce and child custody clients pay around $30/hour of my time to build a jail?

  2. #77

    Default Re: Oklahoma County Jail Expansion

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    My practice has very little to do with criminal law. I have one case in the office right now which is criminal, and only involved one overnight stay in the drunk tank for my client as far as jail time. Why should my divorce and child custody clients pay around $30/hour of my time to build a jail?

    Because the money has to come from somewhere and Big Law is just as good as any other source. I am actaully surprised you are opposed to this idea. I would also suggest a $25 per credit hour fee on all in-state law school classes.

  3. #78

    Default Re: Oklahoma County Jail Expansion

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry View Post
    Because the money has to come from somewhere and Big Law is just as good as any other source. I am actaully surprised you are opposed to this idea. I would also suggest a $25 per credit hour fee on all in-state law school classes.
    Or maybe it'd be better to keep the prison system short on money? The option in the public's best interest is downsizing. If you let them build a jail 10x the size of the one we have now, they'll fill it.

    And counties can only raise taxes by sales tax anyhow. This would have to go through the legislature, which would need a supermajority to vote it in. And considering these costs would be passed along to everyone, including small businesses, I can't think it'd be a good idea.

    Also, would you tax by the billable hour or the billable hour I actually get paid for? Because those numbers tend to run pretty wide apart.

  4. #79

    Default Re: Oklahoma County Jail Expansion

    I know one thing, I would make the prisoners get out and shovel my driveway.

  5. Default Re: Oklahoma County Jail Expansion

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry View Post
    They should tax lawyers and bail bondsmen to pay for it.
    I don't practice criminal law. Tax me? Not every bills by the hour. How to tax? This benefits EVERYONE and isn't a byproduct of attorneys. Why would you tax attorneys and bailbondsmen exclusively? You'd put a chill on people wanting to practice criminal law or giving bailbonds.

    This isn't a very intelligent idea.

  6. #81

    Default Re: Oklahoma County Jail Expansion

    I am stunned the lawyers don't like my idea. Stunned I tell you. Maybe all the lawyers need to step up and take one for the team and stop complaining. And take the tin-foil hats off on the 'chilling effect' stuff. Just pass the cost onto the cunsumer like the tobacco, oil, gas, telephone, cable, and auto industries do with their taxes.


    BTW - how do you guys fell about the soda tax?

  7. Default Re: Oklahoma County Jail Expansion

    I'm actually not stunned that you think a public service that benefits everyone should be solely supported by one small industry.

    Let's make the trucking companies pay for all the roads while we're at it.

    By nature, I don't like any taxes, especially taxes directed at behavior control. But I can understand cigarette taxes- cigarettes have basically no redeeming quality. Soda taxes are unfair, IMO. But I can see the argument for it, although I wouldn't adopt it. I'm a cut-spending-first guy, not a let's-find-a-way-to-pay-for-all-this-crap guy.

  8. #83

    Default Re: Oklahoma County Jail Expansion

    Land acquisition cost for the downtown site would not be cheap. Also the current jail administration favors moving it out of the downtown area. Anyhow it will be many years before anything major happens.

  9. #84

    Default Re: Oklahoma County Jail Expansion

    Quote Originally Posted by MustangGT View Post
    Also the current jail administration favors moving it out of the downtown area.
    This probably wouldn't be a good idea.

  10. #85

    Default Re: County Jail

    "If" there is a new jail, it will not be downtown. That's a fact. This issue has been pushed back over the last couple of years to allow MAPS3 to pass. The County/City/Chamber have been working this internally for over a year now, and now that MAPS is underway, you'll start hearing more about it in late spring as they prepare to orchestrate a vote yes campaign. They first have to educate the general public on the facts as to why this is needed and then we'll all get to vote on it this summer.

    It was mentioined already in this thread, I think by Larry, but if the county (us) does not pass this issue, the feds (DOJ) will take it over and all our property taxes will suffer after the county gets the bill. The DOJ is basically holding the county hostage and using them as a national example to get it done within a certain time frame and the clock is currently ticking. The County had 4 years from 2008 to make improvements or build new, but has slow played it thus far in the greater interest of the City and MAPS. The County had a master plan completed in 11/09 that outlines the cost of expansion vs greenfield site and there was an initial sticker shock which they have been laboring to reduce to better improve any chance of getting it passed.

    In the end, if we vote yes for what will likely be a 1/2 to a full penny sales tax, then we all pay less in the long run as those that live out of the county and tourists will help with the overall load. It's not a sexy project or one that will be very popular, but it will better for us to suffer through another temporary penny hike as opposed to a 20-25% property tax hike. It's a huge obstacle this community has to deal with that will create lots of havoc and unrest, not to mention possibly creating a black eye from a perception point of view.

    The bigger picture will be to get it out of the urban core to allow for more development, improve the west downtown image, build on a greenfield site which will allow for a more effecient plan from a staffing and energy effecient stand point, and in the end it's a win-win for all. Bottom line is it will not be years away, it will be very soon before this becomes front page news.

  11. #86

    Default Re: Oklahoma County Jail Expansion

    Anybody see a chubby guy, clear clear complexion, dark eyes, bit of a sunburn, but otherwise seemingly well hydrated crash through a wall recently?
    No? Maybe it was just me then.

  12. #87

    Default Re: Oklahoma County Jail Expansion

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry View Post
    ...and that is other thing, why are we naming stuff after politicans for free? Ron Norrick needs to pony up $50,000 per year if he wants his name on the library.
    And don't forget U. S. Grant High School. Where's his money? LOL

  13. #88

    Default Re: Oklahoma County Jail Expansion

    No offense Midtowner, but... And now, a word from the legal establishment:

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    If I have to pay to keep my clients locked up, not a one of 'em are spending 5 minutes in the pokey. And when the bondsmen start lobbying the judiciary (and they do influence the judiciary) to start granting O.R. bonds to everyone, Kerry's plan will be complete. We won't need a jail anymore (good news), but we'll be setting some pretty bad people loose (bad news).
    I agree with you though on eliminating some of the stupid laws we have that are costing us..basically this whole boondoggle.

  14. #89

    Default Re: Oklahoma County Jail Expansion

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    This probably wouldn't be a good idea.
    Agreed but it is the way it is. You can bet when it comes time to making a choice the county commissioners will pay NO attention to anybody on site selection. If you are curious about potential sites look up on the many areas OK county that are truly county land. That is land that is not part of any municipality. If the DOJ takes over, the mandated cost will probably be at least double what is being put forth now. Also they can and will mandate staffing levels that willsubstantially increase the daily operating cost. Thos fools that say do nothing and let the DOJ have their way are woefully uninformed of what happens and the costs when they show up. If you doubt that factoid look at any city that is under any kind of Consent Decree and see what their costs are.

  15. #90

    Default Re: County Jail

    What city is under such an Order now?

  16. #91

    Default Re: County Jail

    It does not have anything to do with jails per se but Tulsa has either just gotten released or is still under its Consent Decree.

    Also in the past are LA, Buffalo NY, Cincinnati OH, Detroit MI, Oakland CA.

  17. #92

    Default Re: County Jail

    Quote Originally Posted by MustangGT View Post
    It does not have anything to do with jails per se but Tulsa has either just gotten released or is still under its Consent Decree.

    Also in the past are LA, Buffalo NY, Cincinnati OH, Detroit MI, Oakland CA.
    Yeah, those are places where they've had some problems, but in no case I'm aware of has a facility been ordered to be torn down and rebuilt by consent decree.

  18. Default Re: County Jail

    And don't think that is the requirement here, just that the problems have to be resolved, however they can go about doing that. According to the Sheriff, there are structural problems that just can't be solved with the current building (or cheaper to build new). Sort of along the lines of the convention center.

  19. #94

    Default Re: County Jail

    i just know that there is no way a new jail should cost 400mil

  20. #95

    Default Re: County Jail

    Perhaps if we decriminalized a bunch of victimless crimes we could build one half as large.

  21. #96

    Default Re: County Jail

    I would like to see a list of each inmate and what they are in jail for before I agree with a statement that says decrimalizing victimless would reduce county jail populations. I am not even sure what a victimless crime is. Is counterfitting a victimless crime? Should we decrimalize that? What about meth manufacturing - where is the victim in that? What about drunk driving? Unless the drunk driver crashes into something who is the victim?

  22. #97

    Default Re: County Jail

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry View Post
    I am not even sure what a victimless crime is. Is counterfitting a victimless crime? Should we decrimalize that?
    Brilliant. Ever tried actually thinking? I don't mean conservo-bot thinking...I mean analytical thinking. Come on Kerry. I'm assuming you think anybody convicted of any "crime" should be jailed? If I'm wrong, tell me.

    Counterfitting - If I buy your car with counterfit money, were you a victim?

    Marijuana posession - Who is the victim?

    Should these crimes recieve jail time? Some are pretty stupid things to do.....maybe just a monetary fine in some instances...but jail time at taxpayer expense?

    So who is the victim of these crimes?

    Riding a motorcycle or bicycle without a helmet

    BASE jumping from city buildings

    Individual purchase and consumption of recreational drugs

    Driving a motor vehicle without a seatbelt

    Prostitution and/or soliciting for prostitution

    Public nudity and fornication

    The consumption of pornography (not involving children or coercion)

    Growing marijuana for personal use

    Consensual sodomy

  23. #98

    Default Re: County Jail

    Joe Daddy - how many people are in Oklahoma County jail on conviction of those crimes and no other crimes? Do we have many beds being taken up with bicycle helmet law violations? What about consensual sodomy? How many people are in Oklahoma Coutny jail for that? I don't think OKC has anything tall enough to base jump from (but it is trespassing) but to my knowledge, not a single person has even been charged with that in the State of Oklahoma. I had no idea prostitution was victimless. My sister is a drug addict, ask her mentally retared daughter if it is victimless.

    Was this just a list of victimless crimes you would like to see abolished or was this a list to relieve crowding at the jail?

  24. #99

    Default Re: County Jail

    Counterfitting is actually spelled counterfeiting/counterfeit. I just thought I'd let everyone know that, carry on! Lol

  25. #100

    Default Re: County Jail

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry View Post
    Joe Daddy - how many people are in Oklahoma County jail on conviction of those crimes and no other crimes? Do we have many beds being taken up with bicycle helmet law violations? What about consensual sodomy? How many people are in Oklahoma Coutny jail for that? I don't think OKC has anything tall enough to base jump from (but it is trespassing) but to my knowledge, not a single person has even been charged with that in the State of Oklahoma. I had no idea prostitution was victimless. My sister is a drug addict, ask her mentally retared daughter if it is victimless.

    Was this just a list of victimless crimes you would like to see abolished or was this a list to relieve crowding at the jail?
    You said you didn't understand what a victimless crime was...I gave you some examples.

    Should your sister be jailed for being a drug addict? Would that reform her? Would she be able to get employment at a living wage after being jailed with a criminal record? How would jailing your sister improve the life of her daughter?

    How does jailing a recreational drug user improve society?

    How does jailing a prostitute improve society?

    How does jailing someone soliciting a prostitute improve society?

    Decriminalizing marijuana would certainly help relieve overcrowing in jail. Same with prostitution, and drug posession of any kind for personal use.

    I'd like to see the percentage of those jailed on drug charges, specifically posession for small amounts regardless of the type drug.

    And then there's the category of non-violent offenders. These folks should be treated differently than violent offenders and kept seperate from the violent offenders. When they get mixed together in the system, the chance at rehabilitation of the non violent offender decrease dramatically. There are many things we could do to reduce over crowding in our jails and prisons in Oklahoma and arounf the country.

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