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Thread: County Jail

  1. #51

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    I don't recall offhand when the existing CCDC went into place off the corner of the courthouse, but it was in place in the midish 80's or earlier.
    Presently, some folks who are supposed to be held in the CCDC are kept elsewhere, due to the lack of space. For that reason, 75 beds isn't a
    proper baseline from which to judge the planned bed increase.

    As to 500 beds, some possible explanations, in addition to planned growth, may include:
    (a) space to house juveniles in the region. Seems there is often a shortage of available juvenile beds in our corner of the prairie.
    (b) space to end the practice of housing county inmates elsewhere. Funds currently paid for such housing could toward the new facility.
    (c) space to house county, or state, or fed, inmates for others. Fees paid for such housing go to the facility.
    (If this part of the plan, I hope it works out better for Cleveland County than it did for Grady County several years back.)
    However, I've not looked at the new jail plans and don't know which, if any, of these possibilities may be real.

    As to the alternative sentencing suggestion, this already exists, and has for some time. In appropriate cases (some would argue in too many cases, appropriate or otherwise) the Cleveland County district court judges, just like many other judges across our state, do make use of granting deferred sentences, suspended sentencing, drug courts, community sentencing programs, as well as pre-trial processes like granting own recognizance bonds and even reductions to bail amounts.

  2. #52

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    They don't do OR bonds near enough. The bail bondsmen have a lot of influence over that as these bonds are their bread and butter. They're a big part of the problem.

    I don't do much criminal law--just what comes in the door and that ain't much. Anecdotally though, I had a mover steal my checkbook last year and write about three $200 checks on my account. He signed his own name to the checks, legibly, and wrote them places he'd be recognized. Now, the guy is stupid, don't get me wrong, but a menace to society? Hardly. He's been charged with three counts of forgery in the second degree (all felonies) and has been parked at the county jail since around April. He's not a menace to society though, never been convicted of anything violent. He should be out working to pay my bank back--and Midfirst is a terrific bank, they took care of all the bad checks (as they are required to) and were just terrific the whole way through.

  3. #53

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    These are the questions that the County needs to answer before the ask for $400 mil.

    1. How did a jail built in the 90s suddenly become obsolete so soon?
    Because it was designed by some members of the old Oklahoma City/County good 'ol boys network who always got the contracts....most are out of business anymore because of the jail debacle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    3. If we refuse to merge the city and county, why not consider just merging the detention facilities? OCPD is getting a renovation as we speak.
    I believe the detention facility is merged, I know we did an assessment of the OKC Jail for renovation adjacent to the police building when the city started to balk at the county jail issues not too long after it was opened and immediately having problems. That proposal was dropped once the city and county came to an agreement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    4. How is the County going to make sure that this jail is built right, and that we aren't in the same situation later?
    If they do the same thing as last time, then the same thing will happen. They need to hire competent people and not cronies. A guy whose only experience in concrete is watching his own patio slab being poured should not be a concrete inspector because he is a buddy of a county commissioner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    5. How do you justify spending $400 mil on a new jail when Tulsa County built theirs for less than $100 mil a few years ago?
    Whetsel doesn't care about how much he spends. Much of it depends on where it is built, here in Austin they have a processing/holding facility downtown but the main jail is out past the airport. There has been talk of moving much of the court system out of downtown up I-35 into an old Home Depot store.


    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    6. Can someone explain why in addition to this project, there are at least 11 other prisons under construction right? We've never seen anything NEAR this before. Why the SUDDEN huge boom in prison construction?
    Because mandatory sentencing guidelines have created a situation of no flexibility when there is a shortage of bed space, and there is very much a shortage of bed space.

    Quote Originally Posted by ljbab728 View Post
    It could be because that would be illegal. Some day it might be possible that someone that you are related to or really care about might be incarcerated. That can tend to change your viewpoint. You want them to at least be treated humanely. Many prisoners deserve everything they get and more but some are really nice people who get caught up in things that they never intended.
    ...and some are just bums who if prison was "harder" may not decide it isn't that bad of a place to live....much like my brother-in-law who keeps going in/out of the Texas system because he fails to complete his probation requirements. He is taken care of in prison which is more than what happens on the outside because the rest of the family is tired of his crap, someone who is almost 50 and has spent the majority of the last 10-15 years in/out of the system.

    I do have a cousin who does what he needs to to end up in El Reno every time he gets a release, another got tired of the system, got clean (meth) and has seemed to really turn his life around but he was in/out of the Oklahoma system until HE decided to get clean and work towards getting his life straightened out. People aren't going to "rehabilitate" until they decide to, all the rehab in the world is worthless unless they make the decision themselves and the current prison system seems to be a little too easy for most to decide to make a significant change in their lives and stick with it.

  4. #54

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    I believe that we should legalize-regulate-tax marijuana, because that equation is bleeding money at both ends and because banning that plant is about as possible as banning sunflowers, but that is a related thread, not this one.

    I don't understand why there are so many people in jail/prison here. The USA has a bigger percentage than China but we complain about their human rights. Why are there so many Americans in jail? Why are there so many women in jail in Oklahoma? Do we offer any actual help while they are in jail? Why does drug court cost a fortune? Why does Mississippi have more liberal marijuana laws than Oklahoma?

    Are Americans really the worst people in the world? I guess you could even say from the statistics that Oklahoma women are the worst in the world. Does anyone really believe this? Why is some drunk dude peeing in an alley a sex offender? Why is the dollar amount for felony so low? When was that set, 1963?

    I really don't like this more and more jails thing. I worry about who will fill these jails. If you build it, it will fill. People will make money.

  5. #55

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    I don't know. By comparison, MN has the lowest incarceration rates, and I've heard a lot more positive things about their cities their quality of life, and what they're able to do. Apparently not incarcerating everyone in their state enables them to pay for LRT (not streetcar), a "Public Ivy" university, some of the best grade schools in the nation, some of the best roads in the nation, and a more direct correlation, the Twin Cities are generally known to be safer than most cities, including OKC/Tulsa.

  6. #56

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    I don't know. By comparison, MN has the lowest incarceration rates, and I've heard a lot more positive things about their cities their quality of life, and what they're able to do. Apparently not incarcerating everyone in their state enables them to pay for LRT (not streetcar), a "Public Ivy" university, some of the best grade schools in the nation, some of the best roads in the nation, and a more direct correlation, the Twin Cities are generally known to be safer than most cities, including OKC/Tulsa.
    To be fair, during at least 1/4 of the year, it's too damn cold in MN to even go outside, much less plan and commit crime.

  7. #57

    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    I've lived in colder..you get used to it. And that still doesn't explain Fargo....

  8. Talking Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    Have you ever been inside? Any demo short of TNT would be very difficult.
    Yeah, that place is like a prison in there...

  9. #59
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    Default Re: County Jail Possibly Moving Out of Downtown

    I've spent a little time in the Middle East and China. We could save a lot of money if we do it like them. Sham courts and instant irreversable justice. That would keep our jail costs down.

  10. #60

    Default County Jail

    Does anyone have renderings of new Oklahoma County Jail Expansion west of downtown? With price tag of $430M, I am anxious to see what it will look like?

    Is the limited info due to security reasons?
    Last edited by Pete; 02-07-2011 at 03:33 PM.

  11. #61

    Default Re: Oklahoma County Jail Expansion

    They have to figure out how they're going to pay for it first, so we can shoot it down.

  12. #62

    Default Re: Oklahoma County Jail Expansion

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    They have to figure out how they're going to pay for it first, so we can shoot it down.
    they posted a bid for construction back in 11/2010...bid price was $436,000,000...but there has not been official announcement, or renderings published...But it makes me wonder that they are keeping it confidential since it is a jail...for security purposes...so criminals or whoever, can make blueprints of the jail to plan escapes etc.....

  13. #63

    Default Re: Oklahoma County Jail Expansion

    Another reason why I say that is because the construction of the new Cleveland County Jail in Norman, has been underway for a while now, but renderings were never released...

  14. #64

    Default Re: Oklahoma County Jail Expansion

    Quote Originally Posted by G.Walker View Post
    they posted a bid for construction back in 11/2010...bid price was $436,000,000...but there has not been official announcement, or renderings published...But it makes me wonder that they are keeping it confidential since it is a jail...for security purposes...so criminals or whoever, can make blueprints of the jail to plan escapes etc.....
    No bids were let, they did seek general estimates which came in much higher then expected. They are still in the process of deciding which direction to go, (expansion / new build).

  15. #65

    Default Re: Oklahoma County Jail Expansion

    Quote Originally Posted by rcjunkie View Post
    No bids were let, they did seek general estimates which came in much higher then expected. They are still in the process of deciding which direction to go, (expansion / new build).
    I think they should split the projects in two, they should put new jail/beds on 50 acre site as planned, use $300M for that, then use the remaining $100 for mid-rise downtown headquarters....

  16. #66

    Default Re: Oklahoma County Jail Expansion

    They should tax lawyers and bail bondsmen to pay for it.

  17. Default Re: Oklahoma County Jail Expansion

    Saw site renderings somewhere (here, Oklahoman or Gazette) of the proposed downtown configurations (annex to expand/fix the existing or building from scratch). Building from scratch wasn't that much more expensive which sent them back to the drawing boards. One "solution" (that didn't solve anything) was cutting the number of beds. Over crowding is one of the main issues the Feds had with it. Another proposal had them building it out of downtown somewhere.

  18. #68

    Default Re: Oklahoma County Jail Expansion

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry View Post
    They should tax lawyers and bail bondsmen to pay for it.
    Nah, tax the LEO's. After all, they're the ones who keep filling the place up. Attys and bondsfolk actually oughta get a tax rebate for their end of the process. After all, they help to empty beds so the LEO's can fill them again.
    <VBG>

  19. #69

    Default Re: Oklahoma County Jail Expansion

    Quote Originally Posted by kevinpate View Post
    Nah, tax the LEO's. After all, they're the ones who keep filling the place up. Attys and bondsfolk actually oughta get a tax rebate for their end of the process. After all, they help to empty beds so the LEO's can fill them again.
    <VBG>
    The lawyers and bailbonds would just pass their costs onto the 'customer'. That is how all taxes on business work. They should also sell the seats in the courtrooms. Why just give them away? If people want to watch a trial they need to pay up. If the Oklahoman or local TV stations want to make sure they have seats for the important cases they need to buy a season ticket.

  20. #70

    Default Re: Oklahoma County Jail Expansion

    If I have to pay to keep my clients locked up, not a one of 'em are spending 5 minutes in the pokey. And when the bondsmen start lobbying the judiciary (and they do influence the judiciary) to start granting O.R. bonds to everyone, Kerry's plan will be complete. We won't need a jail anymore (good news), but we'll be setting some pretty bad people loose (bad news).

    Right now, most of us County Bar members have the ability to get clients out on O.R. (own recognizance/free) bonds for most municipal charges, assuming we take responsibility for getting them home safe (if they're not safe to drive) and ensure they show up at their next proceeding. Let us do that for county charges and non-violent felonies, and you'll see the jail population plummet again. Of course, you'll be cutting into the profits of bail bondsmen.

    Or how 'bout this? Eliminate some of the stupid laws we have. Especially the mandatory sentencing guidelines. We pay judges a bunch of money because we trust their discretion. Let them exercise it.

  21. Default Re: Oklahoma County Jail Expansion

    Are the naming rights worth anything?

  22. #72

    Default Re: Oklahoma County Jail Expansion

    Quote Originally Posted by Chicken In The Rough View Post
    Are the naming rights worth anything?
    The "Ken Boyer is Everywhere Oklahoma County Jail"

    I'm thinking that maybe that sends a mixed message?

  23. #73

    Default Re: Oklahoma County Jail Expansion

    Quote Originally Posted by Chicken In The Rough View Post
    Are the naming rights worth anything?
    The naming rights are worth precisely what someone would be willing to pay to name a detention facility after their business or a beloved family member. Generally, no one is willing to pony up for such <VBG>. When a detention facility has a name, it's usually named after someone who helped bring it into being via their position in government. Sometimes that's a politician, sometimes a public servant such as a judge or long time lawman.

  24. #74

    Default Re: Oklahoma County Jail Expansion

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    If I have to pay to keep my clients locked up, not a one of 'em are spending 5 minutes in the pokey. And when the bondsmen start lobbying the judiciary (and they do influence the judiciary) to start granting O.R. bonds to everyone, Kerry's plan will be complete. We won't need a jail anymore (good news), but we'll be setting some pretty bad people loose (bad news).

    Right now, most of us County Bar members have the ability to get clients out on O.R. (own recognizance/free) bonds for most municipal charges, assuming we take responsibility for getting them home safe (if they're not safe to drive) and ensure they show up at their next proceeding. Let us do that for county charges and non-violent felonies, and you'll see the jail population plummet again. Of course, you'll be cutting into the profits of bail bondsmen.

    Or how 'bout this? Eliminate some of the stupid laws we have. Especially the mandatory sentencing guidelines. We pay judges a bunch of money because we trust their discretion. Let them exercise it.
    You don't pay the tax based on if your client is in jail. You get a 15% tax on your hourly rate. It would then be up to you to absorb the cost or pass it on to your customers. That 15% would then be used to fund the new jail. After that the money would be used for anti-crime education. Bail bondsmen would pay a gross receipts tax or a percentage of the bail as a tax. They would also be given the choice of absorbing the cost or passing it on to the customer.

  25. #75

    Default Re: Oklahoma County Jail Expansion

    Quote Originally Posted by kevinpate View Post
    The naming rights are worth precisely what someone would be willing to pay to name a detention facility after their business or a beloved family member. Generally, no one is willing to pony up for such <VBG>. When a detention facility has a name, it's usually named after someone who helped bring it into being via their position in government. Sometimes that's a politician, sometimes a public servant such as a judge or long time lawman.
    ...and that is other thing, why are we naming stuff after politicans for free? Ron Norrick needs to pony up $50,000 per year if he wants his name on the library.

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