County Jail

[kevinpate]

To be fair, it could be turned into crappy office space. When I was with a state agency, several years were spent in old dorm building (Cross Center OU D, then D and B.)
The agency also spent several years in an old somewhat converted hospital building. Some areas were built out into offices. My group was in an old psych wing, complete with large, heavy doors, no windows, that could only lock from the outside of the room. Oddly enough, We felt rather comfortable there. Well, while I was there. After I was gone and the ac and heat got real dang contrary, the comfort levels changed a bit.

All that to say this - one can turn almost anything into office space. Whether or not it is a good idea is a whole nuther conversation.

Whatever savings the county can come up with in building a jail, will be available for county needs, not the wants and desires or even needs of any specific city within the county.

There are benefits to a jail not being multiple stories. Not sure there are any obvious benefits to plopping a jail out near Choctaw other than possibly land costs. Aand these days, that's not assured either.

[ethansisson]

If we are hypothetically choosing between two options with a difference of $30 million, there isn't a single shred of doubt that we should save $30 million.

That depends on the value the $30 million provides. Of course no one would want to spend $30 million more to get the exact same thing, but a renovated abysmally-designed jail building is not the same as a new jail building built to the latest standards of efficiency, humane treatment of those in custody, and the safety of all. Maybe renovating and retrofitting the jail is good enough and we can save some money by doing that. But maybe there are long-term costs associated with that option and substantial benefits of building a new jail that make investing more money now a wiser choice. It's an open question far less certain than you're making it out to be.

Sheriff Whetsel is arguing the latter case – that spending more now to build a new jail is a better use of resources. One of his points is that they estimate the $30 million difference can be made up for over a period of only 10 years through improved operational and utility efficiency in a new jail. If all the numbers add up the way Whetsel describes, it seems to me to make building a new jail a no-brainer. Saving money on the front end is not always the best choice. The main questions that need trustworthy answers are what are the realistic estimated costs of each option, what are the risks of each option, and what added value would a new jail provide versus keeping the existing jail.

These are questions Sheriff Whetsel seems to have already analyzed using data that he considers satisfactory. This is just the kind of issue he, as the elected sheriff, is responsible for considering and recommending solutions to. And he has concluded that building a new jail is the better option operationally and fiscally. However, $30 million, let alone $260 million, is a lot of money and the justification for the appropriation and use of that much money (e.g. whatever studies the county has commissioned, etc.) should be scrutinized carefully by the public, the media, etc. If the people of Oklahoma County are asked to approve a new tax, they should have all of the unbiased information they need to make an informed decision.

[HOT ROD]

Guys, I'm not talking about class-A leasible office space for the market, I'm talking about a 'perhaps' easy repurpose of the building to serve government office needs, keeping (or moving) them downtown to the OKC Civic Center complex. Particularly OK County which doesn't seem to have any office space other than their sprawling but cramped OK County building. Might also work for ACOG, City (Storage, Records, etc), govt functions that don't need/require outside views. Perhaps the upper floors (at least) could be redone to have windows?

Just my ideas on how we could expand on what we have and build a quality, much needed "Corrections and Mental-Health facility" DOWNTOWN (where it needs to be) and not just tear down the existing building for a farm jail in E OK County, for $400m tax increase.

[Spartan]

I know skepticism doesn't sound convincing or professional at all, but I just don't buy the argument for this jail at this cost. They obviously got it all wrong before with the current jail. Portland, Oregon managed to spend $60 million on their jail under similar circumstances and then never even used it to house a single inmate. It's a 528-cell facility that they financed with bonds, rather than a tax, in 2004.

Multnomah Co's unused Wapato Jail for sale

Jackson, MS is currently building a new jail for $30 million.

Jackson County jail should be completed by September | Mississippi News - WAPT Home

Check out this resource on new jails:

http://www.vera.org/sites/default/fi...e-of-jails.pdf

Albuquerque - $78 million
Boulder - $19 million
Dallas - $110 million
Nashville - $77 million
Omaha - $37 million

So no matter what, I do not buy $280 million which will surely balloon to $400 million which I've also seen. As for a $30 million increase no matter how justified, the answer must be no. It's that simple. So someone needs to either explain what is so trashy about us that we need 2.5 times the jail that Dallas has, or where all of this money is really going and why. It doesn't pass the smell test and never has, and I'm afraid that anyone who cares enough to defend it makes themselves look like sheeple. The reality with the MAPS projects, including the one voters want the most (streetcar) is that another $30 million for any of these projects could be easily justified. However it's not happening. The streetcar must be planned with the tiny budget that we have, and that's all there is to it. Public projects must be balanced against each other.

[RodH]

The jail costs above are operating costs and not construction cost.

[Jersey Boss]

Jackson County Miss. Population- 140,450
Oklahoma County OK Population- 755,245

[ljbab728]

http://m.newsok.com/facing-crisis-po...rticle/5464312

NewsOK Videos | Panel discusses county jail, mental health issues

[ethansisson]

I know skepticism doesn't sound convincing or professional at all, but I just don't buy the argument for this jail at this cost.

My main point is exactly that if $260 million is more than the jail should cost then no one should buy the argument for that jail at that cost. As best as I can figure, your argument is that $260 million is more than a new jail should actually cost so we shouldn't build a new jail at any cost – we should renovate the existing jail for $230 million. That's illogical. If Sheriff Whetsel says the new jail will cost $260 million but there are indicators that suggest an adequate jail could be built for far less than that, the next logical step is to determine the requirements of a new jail, get an accurate estimate to build a jail that meets those requirements, and then weigh the costs and benefits of building that jail versus renovating the existing jail.

As for skepticism, my entire last post was written with a healthy dose of skepticism. You're not being skeptical. You're being cynical and illogical. You've already made up your mind before you even have the information necessary to do so. I've been giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're actually approaching this issue with rationality and an open mind, but it's clear now that you're not interested in finding the best solution. You just really, really don't want a new jail built for some reason, apparently even if it might cost no more than keeping the existing jail. I don't get it.

As for a $30 million increase no matter how justified, the answer must be no. It's that simple.

What increase? There's no increase. Building a new jail is an entirely different project than renovating and retrofitting the existing jail, with arguably very different results.

And again with the irrationality. You openly state that even if spending more is entirely justified, we must not do it. In other words, what I hear you saying is that the only relevance the costs and benefits of each option have is that we must choose the least costly option regardless of the benefits. It just doesn't make sense. How about this...instead of building Central Park as designed by Hargreaves for $132 million, let's just raze all the structures, leave whatever trees are already there, dig a big hole and fill it with water, and lay sod over the entire surface. It'll still be a park, but it will only cost $117 million. Sure, spending that extra $15 million to build a better park would be perfectly justified, but no matter how justified, the answer must be no.

So someone needs to either explain what is so trashy about us that we need 2.5 times the jail that Dallas has, or where all of this money is really going and why. It doesn't pass the smell test and never has, and I'm afraid that anyone who cares enough to defend it makes themselves look like sheeple.

I'm not defending a $280 million jail. I'm defending cost-benefit and social return on investment analysis.

The reality with the MAPS projects, including the one voters want the most (streetcar) is that another $30 million for any of these projects could be easily justified. However it's not happening. The streetcar must be planned with the tiny budget that we have, and that's all there is to it. Public projects must be balanced against each other.

Why keep dragging MAPS into this? I don't see how it's relevant and it's not a useful comparison. The only overlap between MAPS projects and the jail is that they are both sales-tax-funded public construction projects. They belong to entirely separate governments. They're on completely different timelines. Each involves its own separate tax. And funds cannot be exchanged between the two. I agree that public projects must be balanced against each other, but it's not as if the city's streetcar will get an extra $30 million in funding if the county decides not to build a new jail. Sure, theoretically a proposal like that could be worked out (perhaps if OKC and the county were consolidated *shudder*), but let's be serious. As you said, it's not happening. Comparing the two is also complicated somewhat by the fact that the jail is integral to an essential government service, but MAPS are quality-of-life enhancements. If anything, that should give an edge to the jail in terms of prioritizing/balancing funding, but of course essential services can't just suck resources away from other projects without justification.

Oh, I forgot. It doesn't matter to you how justified it is. This is irrelevant though. MAPS is a red herring.

[Spartan]

I don't have time to read that, but if you think MAPS is a red herring, then I just don't know what to say. I dot think we are going to agree because defending MAPS is my sole issue. Sorry for not caring enough to get excited about the jail.

What is a social return on investment analysis and what does that have to do with the Central Park being barren? As for your straw man reconstruction of my argument, it's not that I concede that this spending is justified. I sit in meetings all day where spending all the money in the world is justified. I've never seen a non-justified project, so I just concede that point. It's not worth fighting.

[David]

Of course MAPS is relevant. If we have to fund a new jail either voluntarily or involuntarily through fed enforcement and that funding ends up as some form of tax burden, that is going to have an effect on the potential success of any future sales tax vote.

[Spartan]

(edit: sorry to all for the long rant, I just really dislike the county's mere existence...I added a "recap" cliff notes section below)

Additionally, the state legislature is trying to raise the state sales tax to cover teacher pay, which is one of the stranger cases of robbing of Peter to pay Paul I've seen. That combined with a new jail sales tax, which seems to be the county's preferred solution (bonds or property tax levy, really the same solution, would disproportionately affect Oklahoma County homeowners which we can't have) - it looks pretty dark for a MAPS 4. Really it will be a MAPS 4 Jail.

So while in the other silo those of you that defend that county's actions here are dreaming up a MAPS 4 with transit, more convention center (bc we can't get enough), a MAPS theme park, PluPan's beloved 5-stack interchanges to nowhere, and who knows what else that someone may think is a good idea - it aint happening bc of this. These are connected issues. Instead of that steak dinner, here's some chicken that will do, courtesy of county mismanagement and bankrupt leadership.

That leads back to the short term and long term solutions here. We don't need a new jail or an old jail or a yellow jail or a purple jail. Bottom line: We just need to fix DOJ's list of problems. It's as simple as that. We don't need $280 million to do that either.

Then in the long term, we need to get the county out of this, and this is as good an issue as any to evoke that needed discussion on county home rule. We've come oh so close before but for the lobbying power of the county commissioners to keep their jobs. It's really that simple. The reason the voters can't fix the issue by electing some enlightened county commissioners is bc there is no such thing. County govt is a form of govt that works in rural areas, not in urban areas. One of the reasons that county govt simply can't be fixed at the ballot box is bc the only people who are going to run for this office are those who care about the unincorporated areas, and yet somehow they are funded almost entirely by incorporated areas. Other states relegate unincorporated governance to townships which are left to fend for themselves as they should.

The uniquely bizarre arrangement we have here is a redistribution of resources from the urban to the rural, which is really how Oklahoma has always operated anyway. Oklahoma County has sort of become more urban than rural, I would say. Same for Tulsa County (not sure but they might not have any unincorporated territory at all, so maybe they have more of a coordinating role between muni's ala INCOG, I don't know). All the other counties can keep the form of govt that works for them. There is a reason that fiscal demands are moving more urban counties toward consolidated governance, and I thought we were all for fiscal responsibility?

______________________________

So just to recap (otherwise I know my argument will be falsely reconstructed), my issue isn't any of the jail nuances because I really don't care. My issue is 1, ardently preserving the MAPS penny increment (and I don't care how "ignorant" my defense of that makes me look, luckily it's just OKC Talk); 2, ensuring there isn't a dime extra spent beyond DOJ's list of needs; 3, finding a true long-term solution for better management going forward so that we aren't back in this situation.

I have major major concerns on all three of those fronts with the way this has been executed (seemingly unilaterally on the county's part). The county has de jure responsibility here, but we can fix that. There is a toolbox of solutions to get them out of the way. Just as I'd be concerned if I was the project manager here with what little I know about jails, the county doesn't seem any better. They have 1 goal which should be perfectly clear to all: To increase the county budget. Period. From an urban perspective, I can't figure out what exactly the county does that produces value for the city.

[Plutonic Panda]

Deferred decisions: Feds give county two more years to fix jail | The Journal Record

[warreng88]

Deferred decisions: Feds give county two more years to fix jail | The Journal Record

Deferred decisions: Feds give county two more years to fix jail

By: Dale Denwalt The Journal Record January 19, 2016

OKLAHOMA CITY – Attorneys with the U.S. Department of Justice have agreed to hold an action for two years while Oklahoma County remedies its jail situation.

District Attorney David Prater said he met with the DOJ a week ago in Washington, D.C., and asked for the reprieve, which would prevent any federally initiated civil rights court action against the county. The DOJ could have entered a consent decree or filed a lawsuit – both of which would have been considered litigation against Oklahoma County.

“They’ve now said they’re not going to do either,” Prater said.

Roy Williams, president of the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber, told the Oklahoma City Rotary Club 29 about the DOJ’s decision. Part of the reason the feds are willing to back off is a task force’s involvement and the hiring of a firm to study the county’s criminal justice system.

“The threat of a takeover is now on the sideline,” Williams said. “They all believe we will actually implement a better and broader solution for this process than the feds coming in and taking over the system.”

The chamber-backed task force includes 17 of the state’s most powerful business, government and civic leaders as members.

Williams presented on Tuesday the findings of an initial study ordered by the task force. The Vera Institute of Justice noticed several key drivers of the county’s jail overpopulation. Three-quarters of arrests are for misdemeanor or lower crimes, and the nonprofit social science consulting organization said there’s a lack of community interventions such as mental health and substance abuse alternatives to incarceration.

Williams also noted that Vera found inmates who spend up to 10 days in jail without charges filed and without an attorney.

“We have a situation where we have a fairly significant inefficiency in the charging and arraignment process,” Williams said.

Other problems found in the short study showed that inmates might spend longer times in jail because public defenders have a financial incentive to file continuance motions, and poor inmates could fall into a cycle of debt and jail time just because they can’t pay the county’s fines.

“Inappropriate sentencing can, in turn, create even worse social outcomes for the individual, for the individual’s family and for the community as a whole,” said Williams.

The task force has agreed to engage Vera for a second, more in-depth study of the county’s criminal justice system and jail, which could take seven to nine months to complete. Williams said there won’t be any proposals to renovate or replace the jail until after the phase-two recommendations are presented.

“By completion of this process, we will begin to understand then what our long-term facility needs are – both the type of facilities we need and the size of the facilities we will need,” he said.
Sheriff John Whetsel, who is in charge of the jail and frequently criticizes conditions there, said he is willing to wait until the public can be presented with the best idea.

“Obviously we have an immediate need and concern, but I’m also very committed to the objectives and the mission of the task force,” Whetsel said. “It’s extremely important that whatever it is we do, we do right.”

Before getting the reprieve, there was worry that the Justice Department might require new facilities at taxpayers’ expense, regardless of the county’s best intentions. Officials said previously that given Oklahoma County’s budget, the debt would probably be paid via a property tax hike over three years if voters did not approve some other form of funding.

[Plutonic Panda]

Oklahoma County gets two-year reprieve to resolve jail issues | News OK

[Spartan]

So AFTER the next MAPS vote.. which this will be used as ammo against. Pros and cons.

[David]

So, two more years of zero action, and then the feds will be back.

[Spartan]

Basically.

I just hope we get really serious NOW about finding ancillary ways to soften the problem, else it will grow and be even more difficult in the future.

I'm not at all against fixing this issue, which I see as both safety and QoL. Just building Whetsel a new jail isn't the solution though. Come on... that dude has flow charts for solving every problem in town that lead to him getting another new jail.

[Plutonic Panda]

Couple of articles from NewsOk about this:

Multiple fees, fines and bail charges add to Oklahoma County jail crowding | News OK

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-county-ja...rticle/5478821

[ljbab728]

Somehow, this isn't much of a surprise.

Judge says Oklahoma County jail is overcharging inmates | NewsOK.com

Oklahoma County jail inmates have been overcharged for years for the days they spent locked up, a judge has
concluded.

"I'm appalled," District Judge Ray C. Elliott said Thursday during a hearing over what the daily incarceration rate should be this year.

The judge Thursday became upset after discovering that total has included such unrelated things as a percentage of the salaries paid to court clerk employees, county juvenile justice bureau workers and the county public defender's staff.

"How in the world can you justify that?" the judge asked angrily and repeatedly as he went over the so-called indirect costs added to the jail's total operating costs. "I think the public needs an explanation."

[warreng88]

OKC Council approves TIF funds for county jail

By: Brian Brus The Journal Record April 19, 2016

OKLAHOMA CITY – The Oklahoma County Jail will receive a multimillion-dollar boost from the Oklahoma City municipal government for badly needed upgrades and repairs.

“I, for one, am thrilled and very thankful for the assistance,” said Willa Johnson, one of three Oklahoma County commissioners who manage a $185 million budget separate from the city’s $1 billion budget. “The county doesn’t have any money, I can tell you that. We don’t have enough to operate the jail in an appropriate way. We just can’t afford it, so any help we get is greatly appreciated.”

City Council members approved the request for $3.4 million without comment Tuesday. The money comes from TIF No. 2, the second tax increment finance district created out of about a dozen now in operation across the city.

Tax increment finance districts have become a popular funding vehicle for large-scale economic development throughout the state. According to the Oklahoma Tax Commission, local governments across the state had more than $445 million in active TIF districts in 2015.

A TIF typically is designed to set aside a small portion of property or sales taxes from a bounded area and dedicate those funds to pay for public improvements. The target for improvement usually falls within the TIF, and the arrangement has a finite life span unless a city council extends it.

For example, Oklahoma City TIF No. 3 was designed to promote the redevelopment of the historic Skirvin Hotel downtown, now operated by Hilton and identified by City Hall’s website as the jewel of the city’s hospitality industry. TIF No. 8 is dedicated to streetscaping and infrastructure improvements around the Devon Energy skyscraper.

TIF No. 2 was created in 2000 to capitalize on the original MAPS projects by promoting redevelopment around downtown. City Council members agreed to amend its original purpose in February this year so that other taxing jurisdictions – public school districts, for example – could also benefit directly, economic development project manager Brent Bryant said.

County commissioners requested the money to support capital needs and capital improvements to public facilities including replacement of the downtown County Annex Building roof, concrete repair to the courthouse, a new front entrance and security system for the annex, upgrading exterior lights, remodeling the ninth floor of the courthouse, jail roof replacement and upgrading the county jail fire notification system.

In September, the TIF No. 2 Review Committee approved the allocation for county projects as assistance in development financing.

That was good enough for council members Tuesday. County Engineer Stacy Trumbo showed them photos of the repairs needed and told them that conditions at the jail are so bad that detainees have been diverted to other holding areas.

Councilman Ed Shadid said after the meeting that he was not pleased with the deal, but he did not speak up because the fight had already been lost months earlier when City Hall and the Alliance for Economic Development agreed to create six new TIFs downtown. Shadid said Tuesday’s agenda item was a trade-off for political support earlier.

“All that stuff the county needs fixed? It’s their responsibility,” Shadid said of the commissioners.

Jail operations have been under scrutiny for years, beginning shortly after it was opened in 1991. Problems have included window escapes by detainees, plumbing accidents and staff shortages because of floor designs. In 2008, the Justice Department determined that inmates’ constitutional rights were violated due to overcrowding. The memorandum of understanding signed at the time allowed operations to continue as long as corrective efforts were made. Federal officials gave the jail an extension this year while officials work on reforms in the justice system.

County commissioners also have had to deal with a breach-of-contract complaint by Armor Correctional Health Services when the sheriff’s office failed to pay a $3 million debt remaining from 2014-15.

[Plutonic Panda]

http://www.news9.com/story/31864115/...ma-county-jail

[OKCPetro83]

If derplahoman lawmakers decriminalized drugs the way of Portugal, I wonder what things would look like.

[Plutonic Panda]

http://kfor.com/2016/06/16/officials...-tax-increase/

[Pete]

OK County Expected To Announce New Jail Plans
Posted: Oct 18, 2016 4:42 AM CDT
BY CHRIS GILMORE, NEWS 9

OKLAHOMA CITY - A new plan will be unveiled today for the troubled Oklahoma County Jail.
Representative Mike Christian will announce what he calls a "groundbreaking" plan for the jail later this morning.

Interest in updating the county jail isn't new. Some of the major issues there have been magnified by inmate deaths, federal civil rights investigations, and lawsuits. At the same time, there are concerns about overcrowding and under-staffing, raising questions about sanitation and safety.

Plans have stalled so far to vote this year on a sales tax to help build a more than $300 million jail. That tax initiative would have also included plans for money to buy fire and police equipment and a citizens advisory board.

Today's announcement will be at Couch and Shartel, just adjacent to the jail at 10 a.m.

[bombermwc]

One thing that will help people decide to vote for a new facility is to get a new Sherrif to manage it. Get Whetsel out and i think more people will be willing to vote for it. Why allow someone that's so bad at his job to make any decisions on a new facility? He didn't build the current facility, but he for sure has overseen it's downfall.