General Urban Development

[Just the facts]

But we've moved so far away from that kind of density that - as others have pointed out - there are RARELY overwhelmingly good reasons for teardown in OKC vs. building on empty lots.

There are plenty of good reason to tear down existing structures and replace them in OKC. What is unfortunate is when the "new replacement" is more suburban then what was razed.

[OKCisOK4me]

Why is the title of this thread General Urban Development all of a sudden?

[Urbanized]

There are plenty of good reason to tear down existing structures and replace them in OKC. What is unfortunate is when the "new replacement" is more suburban then what was razed.

Should've been more specific. There are not too many compelling reasons to tear down most of the buildings left in downtown, when there is generally an available empty lot right next door. Again, I'm almost always willing to accept the legitimate "higher and better use" argument (see Aloft/Finley Building, or Bricktown Ballpark), but would strongly prefer infill where possible. And in downtown OKC, it is nearly ALWAYS possible.

You can tear down almost everything north of 50th and south of Capitol Hill and get no argument from me. In fact, please do.

[Pete]

Because I moved a ton of threads from the Preftakes thread, as this is completely off that topic.

[OKCisOK4me]

Because I moved a ton of threads from the Preftakes thread, as this is completely off that topic.

Ahhhh so! Thanks Pete! You tha man ;-)

[Just the facts]

Should've been more specific. There are not too many compelling reasons to tear down most of the buildings left in downtown, when there is generally an available empty lot right next door. Again, I'm almost always willing to accept the legitimate "higher and better use" argument (see Aloft/Finley Building, or Bricktown Ballpark), but would strongly prefer infill where possible. And in downtown OKC, it is nearly ALWAYS possible.

You can tear down almost everything north of 50th and south of Capitol Hill and get no argument from me. In fact, please do.

I think you re-wording is the general agreement amongst us fellow travelers.

[BDP]

In other words, the Preftakes block (and other land around MBG - i.e. Stage Center and Cox site) are ready for step 2.

Yeah, but only by skipping your first step. The reality is that the Preftakes block IS a high density block by Oklahoma City standards and it sits caddy corner from a entirely empty lot that right now, along with the parking garage across the street, only serve to disconnect the CBD from film row. If the empty lot was developed and the Preftakes lot improved, but not demolished, there would be a much greater net gain in development density.

I know it's not going to happen that way, if for nothing else it's just not done that way here. I'm just saying there is still plenty of room to increase the density of development in OKC without tearing down a single building, which is how you increase density exponentially instead of incrementally.

[Urbanized]

The empty block on the south side of Sheridan cater corner to the bus station is the selected site of the (funded) downtown school.

[UnFrSaKn]

And Now for Something Completely Different …
http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/20...ely-different/

[OKCisOK4me]

And Now for Something Completely Different …
http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/20...ely-different/

I must be a real man, cause I didn't cry...

[Just the facts]

Penn Station and the theater in OKC were not only archetectural gems, theyalso contributed positivly to the community they were in. Their placement on the ground help define the urban enviornment that they were a part of. Stage Center does the exact opposite - it reduces the density and walkability of the surrounding area by creating negative space and not defining the open space. It is a suburban layout (a structure in a sea of open space) in what should be the most urban part of Oklahoma. Is it better than a vacant lot? Yes, but bearly.

[dankrutka]

What book are those illustrations from again? I know it's been recommended on here before..

[Just the facts]

What book are those illustrations from again? I know it's been recommended on here before..

101 Things I Learned in Architecture School by Matthew Frederick. You can find it on the shelf at Barnes and Noble. While you are there check out Anatomy of a Skyscraper. It is also full of urban design principles.

on edit - LOL, leave one letter out of skyscraper and it totally changes the meaning.

[dankrutka]

While you are there check out Anatomy of a Skyscraper. It is also full of urban design principles.

Are you talking about The Heights: Anatomy of a Skyscraper by Kate Ascher? Just want to make sure...

[Just the facts]

That is it.

[bombermwc]

Well I hate to say "I told you so" on the lack of market for upscale apartments, but i have to. I got thrown mud at for weeks when i said we had too many already and needed mid-level rather than upscale. Guess I wasn't as wrong as the blind optomists thought. You can't blame the market here in OKC for the failure...we didn't have the fall that you saw elsewhere....note the dozens of articles and surveys that we actually grew.

But in reference to the place being a concrete box, yeah it's an ugly crap of a building. But that's how we view it today. We don't call it historic today because of it's lack of creativity. However, that concrete look was a style for a period and does represent a microcasm of architecture. When the horrible bland unpainted Myriad and Gardens were first built, that spelled "modern" and "cutting edge". It's the age old story of how old does something have to be to call it historic. Yes there are rules that govern when something is officially called historic, but the official stance doesn't always win. Otherwise we wouldn't be seeing historic funds being used on this pile of crap. All I'm saying is, historic today, isn't neccessarily historic for tomorrow. In the 20's art-deco was new. Then in the 50's, it was a symbol of old. That's why so many facades were removed in favor of their new international style replacements. What we see as a travesty today, made perfect sense and made a building MORE marketable at that time. Context makes a huge difference.

[adaniel]

Well I hate to say "I told you so" on the lack of market for upscale apartments, but i have to. I got thrown mud at for weeks when i said we had too many already and needed mid-level rather than upscale. Guess I wasn't as wrong as the blind optomists thought. You can't blame the market here in OKC for the failure...we didn't have the fall that you saw elsewhere....note the dozens of articles and surveys that we actually grew.

I'm confused by this blurb. Are you referring to for-purchase condos?

If that is a yes, then you are correct. But there are plenty of upscale rentals going in and I don't see the demand abating anytime soon, given so long the local economy keeps going (always a wildcard) and the rentals are of high quality and actually worth the money.

Keep in mind that there are waiting lists for the Sieber and Deep Deuce, and the Cline Hotel is not even finished and already completely leased.

Even with the rather controversial aesthetics, I have no doubt the Carnegie will be successful.

[Spartan]

That would require a dead-halt on leasing in the future.

Well I hate to say "I told you so" on the lack of market for upscale apartments, but i have to. I got thrown mud at for weeks when i said we had too many already and needed mid-level rather than upscale. Guess I wasn't as wrong as the blind optomists thought. You can't blame the market here in OKC for the failure...we didn't have the fall that you saw elsewhere....note the dozens of articles and surveys that we actually grew.

What are you talking about? That just came out of nowhere. If anything, it is proof that the upscale housing market is so strong that even a ghastly project like this can move forward.

[bombermwc]

Spartan, did you even read the comments from the developer where they said there wasn't a market for upscale at the price they wanted? Right out of the horses mouth there buddy. As adaniel said, rental is strong on the east side of downtown and continuing to grow. But this high price lease crap people keep trying to push isn't flying. This project has failed numerous times and they're clawing to stay alive with this historic money. It is counter to everything they had planned in the original design.

You find me someone that will want to move in there now and then (should they decide to go with the changes after the 5 year requirement for the cash expires) would want to be around while construction tears off the outside and then cuts holes in walls, converts a floor or two to parking, etc. That would make the sale that much more difficult. What you are more likely to see is:
1 - the project will totally collapse and we'll still have an empty crappy building
2 - they somehow find people to lease, but it won't be as high of a price and there will be no massive renovations

What i'd like to see is the original design come to fruition. Is it going to happen...doubt it...a lot.

[Spartan]

Spartan, did you even read the comments from the developer where they said there wasn't a market for upscale at the price they wanted? Right out of the horses mouth there buddy. As adaniel said, rental is strong on the east side of downtown and continuing to grow. But this high price lease crap people keep trying to push isn't flying.

I think you're somewhat confused. The market that has struggled and been hit hard by the recession is for upscale for-sale condos. Those have stayed on the market for a long time even in downtown OKC. In general though, the for-rent market is wide-open. Almost all of the downtown apartments being built are pretty high-end, at least for this market. This project is certainly no more high-end than some more major projects with hundreds of living units.

I agree that the original design was alright, because I do think that there are ways to make this building look attractive.

[PhiAlpha]

Spartan, did you even read the comments from the developer where they said there wasn't a market for upscale at the price they wanted? Right out of the horses mouth there buddy. As adaniel said, rental is strong on the east side of downtown and continuing to grow. But this high price lease crap people keep trying to push isn't flying. This project has failed numerous times and they're clawing to stay alive with this historic money. It is counter to everything they had planned in the original design.

Bombermwc,

Your assessment of high lease prices not flying is flat out wrong. I've been looking downtown for an apartment and it has been difficult to pick and choose because of high occupancy. Yes, that is high occupancy in upscale, expensive, high rent housing. Most apartment complexes are fully leased or hovering around 98% occupancy. The only exception I could find was park harvey which is still at 89% occupancy despite being surrounded by construction and not having a parking structure attached. There are plenty of people between 20 and 35 that work downtown or nearby that are willing to pay the rent and live there. No one likes the prices but just like every other large city, people are paying them. And prices downtown aren't much different than what the nicer apartments charge in Norman, which many of the people moving downtown have been paying through out attending college.

The report you are referring to stated that there isn't enough of a market for high end CONDOS AND TOWNHOMES at the price they are trying to get, it further stated more apartment development would need to occur downtown to satisfy demand. I've looked through the downtown condo selection, and even though high priced, many have been sold.

[bombermwc]

Good God people...do you even read posts? What i said was right from the developers mouth. It's even posted on previous pages in this thread. The person pushing the development themselves has said the market for what they were pushing just isn't there. "For the price" means a lot. They could have been way overshooting what it's worth. But at least read before you try and argue with what the developer is saying. You're trying to make this into an attack on me (big surprise since heaven forbid anyone ever disagree with the great Spartan), but next time why don't you try reading all the posts before you comment.

And PhiAlpha, no i'm not referencing a report. As I said, i'm referencing the words right out of the developers mouth, which explained why they did a change in courseon the entire project. It's like you guys just read the last couple of posts before you comment.

[betts]

The market is always behind or ahead of reality, regardless. At some point, the last person or persons to create rental properties in downtown, Midtown and Deep Deuce will discover that the rental market is tapped out. And there will be people who've loved renting downtown and are now financially able to buy who won't be able to find for sale properties at any price. Then the developers will go gaga over for sale properties and if we're lucky, at some point we'll have enough, or likely too much, of both. It's never good to be that last developer, but it always seems to happen. I think they respond in very reflexive fashion to perceived markets. Let the Carnegie developers do whatever they think is right. They may be right, or they may be wrong. There is clearly no crystal ball.

[Spartan]

Good God people...do you even read posts? What i said was right from the developers mouth. It's even posted on previous pages in this thread. The person pushing the development themselves has said the market for what they were pushing just isn't there. "For the price" means a lot. They could have been way overshooting what it's worth. But at least read before you try and argue with what the developer is saying. You're trying to make this into an attack on me (big surprise since heaven forbid anyone ever disagree with the great Spartan), but next time why don't you try reading all the posts before you comment.

And PhiAlpha, no i'm not referencing a report. As I said, i'm referencing the words right out of the developers mouth, which explained why they did a change in courseon the entire project. It's like you guys just read the last couple of posts before you comment.

It sounds like I am just going to have to teach you a lesson with my giant Poseidon trident.

You're right, it is straight from the horse's mouth. There was no market for the upscale condos that she was initially proposing. She then changed her project over to high-end apartments. Could you please elaborate further as to how that is an indictment, rather than a confirmation, of the high-end rental market?

We agree that this Carnegie development is now less than ideal. I also agree with your assessment that she appears to be fishing for desperate options to keep her project alive. I just think this crusade of yours against high-end rentals is unnecessary and it misses the point about rentals vs. condos.

The high-end rental market is where we've found the demand which has ignited the current wave of private development.

[Pete]

The market is always behind or ahead of reality, regardless. At some point, the last person or persons to create rental properties in downtown, Midtown and Deep Deuce will discover that the rental market is tapped out. And there will be people who've loved renting downtown and are now financially able to buy who won't be able to find for sale properties at any price. Then the developers will go gaga over for sale properties and if we're lucky, at some point we'll have enough, or likely too much, of both. It's never good to be that last developer, but it always seems to happen. I think they respond in very reflexive fashion to perceived markets. Let the Carnegie developers do whatever they think is right. They may be right, or they may be wrong. There is clearly no crystal ball.

Yes, it's the nature of commercial development: Everyone goes chasing the current hot segment instead of actually thinking on their own. The developers are certainly to blame but even more so are the lenders who will only look at recent past history before splashing out the cash.

You'd think both these groups would learn but that never seems to happen.