Scissortail Park

[Spartan]

Incorrect. I recommend watching the video linked earlier in the thread.

In fact, Cleveland is taking space that has for over 100 years been known as the Mall (it was designed in 1903 by Daniel Burnham, et. al.) and are re-imagining it (after tearing up a bunch of it and building a convention center below surface). A separate existing space known as Public Square is distinct from the Mall and located diagonally across an intersection from one end of the Mall. They are making design efforts (including I think closing streets) to "connect" it with the Mall. But it will still maintain a distinct identity.

Note also that according to the linked video Cleveland's Mall is barely more than 3 acres. Our proposed 40 acre Central Park will be plenty big, even without having Myriad Gardens directly attached to it.

I am not fond of the convention center between Myriad Gardens and the Central Park, but if properly designed it could work. Just as, with good design, having hotels and retail/office space between the 2 parks could work very well.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having two distinct parks in our downtown. And a lot to be gained. Different uses will draw people along from one area to another and infuse the whole downtown with more activity. Too much of one thing in a particular area will act as a roadblock, even if that one thing is a park.

Imagine someone strolling around downtown along Sheridan. They are likely to be drawn into Myriad Gardens. If, while in the Myriad Gardens, they look to the south and see twenty more blocks of relatively open park space stretched out in front of them, there is an excellent chance they will not venture any further south. If, on the other hand, there are shops, restaurants, etc. across Reno to the south, they may stroll through Myriad Gardens to the shops and restaurants. Then, they may stroll into the northern part of the Central Park as well, and/or to any shops/restaurants/developments that line the sides of the park.

The old mall in Cleveland with its beaux arts landscaping motif was completely scrapped and is absolutely no more. Was there the other week and there is virtually nothing left of it except the southern terminus, reminding me a lot of Bicentennial Park. I can also assure you that they're very interested in OKC's plan with C2S but many of the guys I met with thought we were making a huge mistake and wanted their mall redesign to be a teaching lesson. Right now they're planning a similar N/S green space spine but it won't be perfect because it has to meander around Key Tower at the diagonal intersection you mention. But with that slight alteration, there is nonetheless a N/S spine that starts at Public Square and then goes through downtown Cleveland up to the Lake Erie waterfront, which has the Browns stadium, Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, among other things. The point though is that they certainly aren't interrupting their green spine with a convention center.

Your own post is unfortunately a contradiction with regards to the CC. You admit that it isn't preferable, then argue it can be turned into a positive, then suggest that something on the other side will need to draw people in from the northern end. But you say it should be shops and restaurants. What is proposed between our two parks is not shops and restaurants, like originally planned, but will instead be a massive CC wall. In fact our new landmark "boulevard" won't even be a straight corridor anymore because they are bending it southward to free up more space for the CC.

In case it's not clear what project is calling the shots in our downtown, it's the CC, not parks, not private development. Also I did want to bring up the Cleveland Medical Mart as another interesting lesson, but I'll do that in the other thread..

[Oil Capital]

The old mall in Cleveland with its beaux arts landscaping motif was completely scrapped and is absolutely no more. Was there the other week and there is virtually nothing left of it except the southern terminus, reminding me a lot of Bicentennial Park. I can also assure you that they're very interested in OKC's plan with C2S but many of the guys I met with thought we were making a huge mistake and wanted their mall redesign to be a teaching lesson. Right now they're planning a similar N/S green space spine but it won't be perfect because it has to meander around Key Tower at the diagonal intersection you mention. But with that slight alteration, there is nonetheless a N/S spine that starts at Public Square and then goes through downtown Cleveland up to the Lake Erie waterfront, which has the Browns stadium, Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, among other things. The point though is that they certainly aren't interrupting their green spine with a convention center.

Your own post is unfortunately a contradiction with regards to the CC. You admit that it isn't preferable, then argue it can be turned into a positive, then suggest that something on the other side will need to draw people in from the northern end. But you say it should be shops and restaurants. What is proposed between our two parks is not shops and restaurants, like originally planned, but will instead be a massive CC wall. In fact our new landmark "boulevard" won't even be a straight corridor anymore because they are bending it southward to free up more space for the CC.

In case it's not clear what project is calling the shots in our downtown, it's the CC, not parks, not private development. Also I did want to bring up the Cleveland Medical Mart as another interesting lesson, but I'll do that in the other thread..

The old mall is "gone" because they are completely re-working it and building a convention center underneath it. You completely misstated reality in your first post. They are merely re-imagining existing green spaces, contrary to your initial post. They are not expanding the public square in two directions. And again, the entirety of their mall is THREE acres. If you add the PUblic Square, you might get as much as 5 acres (but again it is not exactly continuous). Myriad Gardens is 17 acres. The proposed central park is 40 acres. Having a significant continuous green space is NOT a problem for us in OKC.

Read my posts more carefully, please, alomg with follow-up posts that clarify. For that matter, you should read everything more carefully. ;-). I think filling the CC parcel with a massive block convention center is the worst result. There is no reason we could not put our convention center largely underground like Cleveland is doing, and have shops/restaurants/open space on the surface. As I argued in my earlier post, I think the ideal usage for the surface of the CC parcel is shops, restaurants, perhaps hotel.

[Spartan]

The old mall is "gone" because they are completely re-working it and building a convention center underneath it. You completely misstated reality in your first post. They are merely re-imagining existing green spaces, contrary to your initial post. They are not expanding the public square in two directions. And again, the entirety of their mall is THREE acres. If you add the PUblic Square, you might get as much as 5 acres (but again it is not exactly continuous). Myriad Gardens is 17 acres. The proposed central park is 40 acres. Having a significant continuous green space is NOT a problem for us in OKC.

Read my posts more carefully, please, alomg with follow-up posts that clarify. For that matter, you should read everything more carefully. ;-). I think filling the CC parcel with a massive block convention center is the worst result. There is no reason we could not put our convention center largely underground like Cleveland is doing, and have shops/restaurants/open space on the surface. As I argued in my earlier post, I think the ideal usage for the surface of the CC parcel is shops, restaurants, perhaps hotel.

A few things first, I'm going to take the high road and not get caught up in defending past records. My explanation of the project was a simplification written for people who weren't just in Cleveland the other week like myself. I don't think the average OKC Talk readers cares about the nuances or the historic importance of the mall. Another issue I have with your post is that you're making a huge deal out of the acreage difference. Public Square is 4 blocks. The mall is several times bigger, stretching all the way to the shore. There is an interesting graphic illustration out there that explains how OKC's block sizes are the largest of almost any major city (trying to find it, couldn't find it on Blair's blog, anyone else remember this?), so the distance between 1 block in downtown OKC is actually several times the distance between 1 block in downtown Cleveland. 40 acres would be almost all of downtown Cleveland, especially if you cut off the haggard eastern side. Cleveland's east side goes up into the east 120 streets, just a mere 4 miles from downtown. So, having actually been to this city and not merely bloviating like you are, your point about 40 acres v. 5 acres falls pretty flat. Cleveland's planned green spine is their equivalent to ours and grasping at straws to make a defense doesn't diminish the lessons we could learn from them.

I think filling the CC parcel with a massive block convention center is the worst result. There is no reason we could not put our convention center largely underground like Cleveland is doing, and have shops/restaurants/open space on the surface. As I argued in my earlier post, I think the ideal usage for the surface of the CC parcel is shops, restaurants, perhaps hotel.

Now that I have the technical issues I have with your post out of the way - I understand that you live in Tulsa so naturally you aren't as aware about the intricacies of OKC projects and stuff, and especially given the amount of time that you dedicate to flaming every single OKC poster on this board, I certainly couldn't expect you to know the fine details of our CC project. That said, I commend you for having at least the insight to recognize that a massive block convention center would be the worst result. Unfortunately the entire facility will not be underground, just the exhibition hall, and there will be a massive block, perhaps even a CC hotel (this thread's topic) squeezed into the block. Shops/restaurants/open space aren't in the picture here. There is 1 out of 3 options that have been in the media which include a small 50-foot wide green opening through the middle so that at least the green spine can be superfluously marketed.

The crazy thing is that Fred Hall came out last year announcing that he wanted to build the largest mixed-use development in OKC history on this site. Something like the Power & Light District in KC or even better. Everyone agreed that this plot of land was by far the most important in downtown. Then the powers that be decided that their convention center project was the single most important thing for downtown to have, and decided that needed to go on this land.

[BigD Misey]

Everything will be fine provided Walker is lined with mixed use south of the Boulevard

[soonerguru]

everything will be fine provided walker is lined with mixed use south of the boulevard

wtf?