City Council Elections....

[OSUFan]

Barnold, you can say that they are all you want. That doesn't make it true. Are the union president's salaries not paid by taxpayers? If so wouldn't that mean my tax money is going towards the "campaigning" the union is doing?

[barnold]

OSU- I not sure what you're saying isn't true.
Yes the union president's salary is paid for by taxpayers monies. That's why I said it's all in your perspective. However, city employees are forbidden from campaigning while on duty, so just because our salaries are being paid for by taxpayer funds, does that mean we shouldn't be allowed to be involved off duty?

[OSUFan]

I just find your arguement odd. You are saying it is wrong for our money to go to the Chamber and then used for campaigning (which there is zero evidence that it is actually been done, the Chamber has been doing campaigns for decades and everything is public record and no one has shown anywhere were public funds are being used on stuff like this) and yet I know my money is going to pay the salaries of the Union head's who are campaigning.

[betts]

After thinking this through, I would have to agree with OSUFan. If indeed the leader of your union holds a taxpayer funded position, and he is using that position of authority to campaign for a particular candidate or position on a ballot question, and is using funds solicited for political purposes to promote said candidate or position, that seems fairly similar to a taxpayer funded group (CofC) using funds, which we don't have evidence aren't also solicited for political purposes to promote a candidate or position, promoting a particular candidate or position. If Mr. Sipe were campagining privately, on his time off, and not using the news media as a mouthpiece, that would be different. But, that is not the case. So, I'm having trouble seeing any significant difference between the two entities.

[Easy180]

Front page article in today's Oklahoman painting a pretty bad picture of the Windsor Hills group...Can tell they are doing everything they can to keep these far out there guys from getting elected

Hope it works

[rcjunkie]

Front page article in today's Oklahoman painting a pretty bad picture of the Windsor Hills group...Can tell they are doing everything they can to keep these far out there guys from getting elected

Hope it works

I have faith in the voters of OKC, I'm positive they are smart enough to see the 2 for what they are and represent.

[barnold]

If you don't believe that taxpayer funds are going to the Chamber then you're just in pure denial. It's in their budget numbers at the end of the year. I can't help explain the obvious anymore than that.

As the local pres. he has to answer questions about campaigns and the locals stance; however he does not participate in the campaigning during working hours; that's what the off duty members do. He is no different than the Mayor on these commercials pushing his agenda and his candidates or standing in front of the voters saying a Vote for Maps will actually add PS positions. How long will you continue to "Drink the Koolaid of the council, mayor and CM" and believe the lies?

[OSUFan]

If you don't believe that taxpayer funds are going to the Chamber then you're just in pure denial. It's in their budget numbers at the end of the year. I can't help explain the obvious anymore than that.

As the local pres. he has to answer questions about campaigns and the locals stance; however he does not participate in the campaigning during working hours; that's what the off duty members do. He is no different than the Mayor on these commercials pushing his agenda and his candidates or standing in front of the voters saying a Vote for Maps will actually add PS positions. How long will you continue to "Drink the Koolaid of the council, mayor and CM" and believe the lies?

No one is saying the Chamber doesn't get city funds. Everyone knows they do. Some of us are just saying there is zero proof that money is being used on campaigns. Campaign fundraising is all public record. Furthermore, it is odd for you to take that position when we KNOW our taxmoney is paying salaries for the union heads who are campaigning.

Again, just because an entity recieves city funds doesn't mean they can't campaign. They just can't use those funds to cammpaign.

[betts]

Barnold, while we all know taxpayer funds are going to the Chamber, we also know other funds are as well. You obviously have to pay to join the Chamber, and I know they solicit donations for campaigning, because I gave them money for both the MAPS for arena and MAPS 3 campaign efforts. I don't know if they keep the pots of money separate, but I suspect they do for accounting purposes. Now, I also know that your union head receives a salary from the city. So, he is being funded by taxpayers. I agree "he is no different from the mayor", in that he is using his position of authority to help push candidacies. He is also using his position of authority and delivered opinions to solicit funds for campaigns he deems worthy. If he speaks to the press during his working hours, then he is actually campaigning while on duty. The more I think about it, the less I agree with your position.

Now, as to the mayor's lies. I don't recall him giving a timeline for MAPS funds being available to PS. The collection has 6 more years to run. I have my pet projects I'd like to receive funding first, but that's not happening. They're coming up with a timeline for projects and I don't think they're going to deviate from that timeline. If there are never any MAPS funds available for PS, then I will agree with you. He lied and I will support what I am assuming is your contention that it was a deliberate lie designed to lull voters. However, you all campaigned pretty hard against him and you're now campaigning for candidates who will attempt to destroy everything he's worked hard to create. That doesn't usually put you first in line at the money trough.

[Steve]

I'm going to upset some folks by introducing facts into this discussion.
The firefighters know very well that yes, the city pays money to the chamber for economic development and recruiting. This work includes the chamber setting up a retail recruiting booth at the international shopping center conferences where they try to lure the stores, restaurants, etc. that people complain are skipping us over (getting these stores also boosts the sales tax base for the city). These funds DO NOT go to political campaigns waged by the chamber. The chamber has established funds called "Forward Oklahoma City" that raise money from corporations and private individuals to pay for these campaigns. That's the facts. Period. The fire union has also emphasized over the years that their presidents do not do campaigning on time paid by taxpayers also. I have no reason to doubt that is true as well.
Moving on.... barnold, mike, etc... after reading the story in today's Oklahoman, are these Tea Party/Windsor Hills guys really folks that you identify with? I wonder how many of your brothers in blue like the idea of teaching children to fire automatic assault weapons.

[Steve]

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=6121915&page=1

[Pete]

Reading through all these threads and posts regarding police and fire dating back to the MAPS3 campaign, it seems more and more we have the fire fighters versus everyone else. While everyone agrees that public safety is important, I don't see anyone here (or really elsewhere) that agrees this is a priority area for increased spending.

This is further underscored by police & fire backing two outrageously unqualified (and possibly even dangerous) city council candidates just because they are willing to include public safety rhetoric in their materials and vague messages.

The result is that the fire fighters union in particular is really alienating themselves from lots of people that had previously been rather supportive. I said this after the MAPS 3 vote and it has only continued down that path since.

Their self-perceived enemies list is getting longer than that of Richard Nixon: the mayor, city council, chamber of commerce, the Oklahoman... Only the most powerful entities in the entire city.

All of this is working against their stated goals of more funding for people and equipment.

[BoulderSooner]

i hope it doesn't happen but do the police and fire people understand what the goals of the tea party backed candidates would be once they reach office .. they are more anti union than any other candidates could be these two are just a little more out there than most ..

[Steve]

Pete, what's sad is I know some of these guys. They're good guys. I have friends in both police and fire. They work hard. They do a good job. I would go so far as to say I've seen evidence backing some of their complaints. I've said it before, I'll say it again: they need a GOOD public relations firm (I'm not talking about someone who critics say is a hatchet-wielding political consultant). And then I'd tell Mike, Barnold, etc this: you're not known for being belligerent hot heads in real life, so don't do yourselves a disfavor online.
As an aside, from what I see, the tea party/Windsor Hills candidates don't match up with the sort of candidates the unions have backed in the past (Shadid, however, seems to fall in line nicely with what I've seen in the past - Schwartz, Groves, etc.)

[barnold]

Steve- You should know I'm a gun toting American. My children are already well acquainted with weapons and hunting and I'm always packing...seriously? I won't get into the debate of Rep/ Dem/ Tea Party, just like I wouldn't get into the birther's issues or Muslim issues in the Presidential race. And for the record I didn't vote for Obama.
Separation of funds in the Chamber? That's pretty laughable. Kinda like saying they separate out all of the general fund and it goes back to each department. They've been moving money out of the dedicated sales tax for years and we can't get it stopped. IMO...The Chamber should not be allowed to engage in political races if they are going to continue to receive funds from the city.

Betts- so it's ok for the Mayor to campaign and endorse but not the union pres? We are just learning to play the game they set forth, and it's going to make many on this forum mad. But what I learned during the MAPS3 campaign is that most on this forum are not the majority thinkers of the citizens of Okc. They are just really vocal on this forum.

Pete- prior to MAPS3, how many FF did you have on this forum? I know of one but there could be more. I know of at least a dozen regular posters now, and many more who follow the threads. You're just hearing from us more than you ever had in past because our city leaders are running amuck. The majority of OKC john q. public see that, and are in agreement that things need to change on the council. Overcoming apathy will be the proof. That will take more than a single political race or two and I can't wait until the council seats come up for election.

[Steve]

Barnold, there's a difference between being a gun enthusiast and bringing your gun to church. I take the chamber - and you guys - for your word when it comes to not using taxpayer resources to do political campaigning. I'm curious - are you saying any organization that receives taxpayer funds should not engage in political races? If so, wouldn't that cut both ways?

[metro]

Barnold, you will never get that you all are shooting yourself in the foot every time you speak, I have lost lots of respect for the FOP, I can respect your job, but your stance on political opinions ARE out of touch with the majority of voters, that's why you keep losing.

[Doug Loudenback]

Metro, I hope so. But I fear that Meg Salyer's Ward 6 election is too close to call. I think the winner will be whichever candidate, Salyer or VanManen, does a better job at getting their vote out. The battle line appears to be the Oklahoma River ... north of it is absolutely Salyer territory ... south of it into Capitol Hill I expect will be VanManen turf.

[Mikemarsh51]

Your not supposed to take your gun to church? Why wouldn't you? There were 3 instances last year where pastors were attack in the pulpit. Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

[Steve]

Wow....

[Wambo36]

Now, as to the mayor's lies. I don't recall him giving a timeline for MAPS funds being available to PS. The collection has 6 more years to run. I have my pet projects I'd like to receive funding first, but that's not happening. They're coming up with a timeline for projects and I don't think they're going to deviate from that timeline. If there are never any MAPS funds available for PS, then I will agree with you. He lied and I will support what I am assuming is your contention that it was a deliberate lie designed to lull voters. However, you all campaigned pretty hard against him and you're now campaigning for candidates who will attempt to destroy everything he's worked hard to create. That doesn't usually put you first in line at the money trough.

For starters betts, I can't believe we're going to rehash this, as it was beaten around on this board about 6 months ago and even the mayors supporters couldn't put up a believable defense for him. Let's look at the facts as they were. The mayors statements to the press and in campaign ads every 15 minutes on the tube were " Not only will we not lose any public safety positions , we'll add more if M3 passes." What part of "Not only will we not lose any public safety positions" was unclear to you? Now we knew there was no way to pay for personnel with M3 money and the wheels had already been set in motion to eliminate positions from PS, so we knew it was a lie. The council knew that he had not come to them with a plan to save positions, so they knew it was a lie. They even went so far as to tell him that "maybe you need to take that up with the CoC for funds", since they knew who he was doing the commercials for.
The only thing that the use tax money from M3 could fund anyway, would be equipment. You can't hire people with money that you know is going away in 7 years. That doesn't make sense. So what money was he talking about?
We're left with 2 options on the mayor.
Option 1 is that after 2 terms as mayor, he was still so inept and unsure of the way his job duties are performed, that he didn't know that he had to have approval from the council to make the promises he was making. Boggles the mind doesn't it? Now I don't know about you, but that doesn't sound like the guy that everyone is making out to be some sort of political svengali who's leading this city into the future.
Option 2 is that he knew very well that he needed, and didn't have, the councils approval to make those promises, but didn't care as long as it helped his cause. In other words, he lied.
So it's your choice, incompetent or liar. Sorry, it doesn't fit your view of things, but those really are the only two choices.

[kevinpate]

Barnold, you will never get that you all are shooting yourself in the foot every time you speak, I have lost lots of respect for the FOP, I can respect your job, but your stance on political opinions ARE out of touch with the majority of voters, that's why you keep losing.

It's true FD is out of step with the overall majority, by a few percentage points. However, as you know, and they know, seats at the horseshoe are not decided by the overall majority, but by a majority within a ward. One of the points kicked around repeatedly back before the M3 vote was what happens down the road to non-binding intent resolutions if and when others step up and they were never committed to the original non-binding decisions.

I don't know if Tuesday moves OKC closer to finding out or not, but if it does, it shouldn't shock anyone. The writing was on the wall before the M3 vote, and confirmed by ward where there might be danger ahead when the results were tallied.

Go back and look at which wards had a majority of no votes, or only barely approved M3. What's happening this cycle will undoubtedly happen again when the next best seats to be targeted are on the line.

Just like the Y/N on M3, implementation won't be a one vote and done situation.

Personally, I'm hopeful those elected will be strong supporters for going forward with M3. But I'm merely hopeful and not confident that'll be the case.

[barnold]

Steve- Geeeesh, easy about the guns man. I was just having some fun with you. I enjoy being a gun owner but am not some fully automatic gun toting maniac. I just thought the idea of a fully auto in church was a little over the top. Could you even fit in pew with one of those things slung over your shoulder?

Kevinpate- I too hope that those elected will be strong supporters of all the MAPS initiatives that have been passed by a will of the voters.

[Steve]

See now Barnold, that's where all this is getting out of hand. I can't tell what's real in this thread anymore. That, and to be honest with you, now that I'm a dad, I don't get to speak sarcasm as much as I used to (I was very fluent!). See, when I do it with my kids, they just stare blankly at me. They speak literalism. So I've been forced to learn this other tongue at the expense of speaking sarcasm.
I'm not advocating an outcome of this election other than for people to be fully informed and to poke and prod at whether the two tea party/wh guys are really representative of the unions. With Shadid, again, I'm not saying he's the best guy or not. But certainly he appears to be someone who follows in the tradition of Mark Schwartz, etc. Seems like a bright guy.

[barnold]

Steve- I really like Shadid as well. And don't worry about the sarcasm gene; it will come back to you when you're kids turn into teenagers. I've been through 5 and have two more to go. Enjoy the literalism while it lasts, it's precious.