Is Omaha OKC's new competitor?

[MikeOKC]

SandRidge about a year or two ago. Moved from Amarillo first to The Tower on NW Expressway then purchased the old Kerr McGee properties and are in the process of investing hundreds of millions and expanding rapidly.

This wouldn't have happened had it not been for Tom Ward (co-founder of CHK) buying majority interest in Riata, becoming CEO, renaming the company to Sandridge, and moving the company to his hometown. Nothing wrong with that, but it probably doesn't qualify as an outside company moving to OKC because of what OKC offers. Not to mention they "moved" here from - Amarillo. This is just an * to Pete's post for those who didn't know. It's not like some big company in Boston narrowed its choices down to 3 cities and selected Oklahoma City. This was inside baseball all the way.

[Pete]

I know all that Mike but why the heck wouldn't it qualify?

If all these great things weren't happening in OKC there is a very good chance that they would be in Houston now, along with lots of energy companies that had Oklahoma roots.

[Meaculpa]

The Urban Land Institute considers Omaha a competitor of Oklahoma City.
Its on the OKC.GOV website.

[dmoor82]

This link shows American metro statistics for Housing and job trends,the link brings you to Omaha and then switch it to OKC! http://www.builderonline.com/local-m...ffs-ne-ia.aspx

[dmoor82]

The Urban Land Institute considers Omaha a competitor of Oklahoma City.
Its on the OKC.GOV website.

^^link?

[MikeOKC]

I know all that Mike but why the heck wouldn't it qualify?

If all these great things weren't happening in OKC there is a very good chance that they would be in Houston now, along with lots of energy companies that had Oklahoma roots.

I never said a lot of great things weren't happening in Oklahoma City. There are a lot of great things happening here. There's nothing wrong with pointing out that Sandridge is here because it's Tom Ward's hometown. I don't think it qualifies as an answer to G. Walker's question about "outside companies" moving to Oklahoma City because of the circumstances. I explained that with my Boston analogy. It's actually a very good question posed by G. Walker. Why aren't new companies moving their operations to Oklahoma City? If they can move to Omaha, like Gallup, etc. - why not Oklahoma City? Perfectly valid question.

[G.Walker]

I never said Omaha was better then Oklahoma City, or vice versa, I simply said that Omaha was our competitor, and that we can learn from them.

[MikeOKC]

I found the link dmoor82 was looking for. www.okc.gov/planning/coretoshore/ULIfinalrepor.pdf. Oklahoma City is considered a "peer city" and "current competitor" with Omaha. It focuses on the convention business. Why not ask Convention & Tourism if we compete with Omaha? I think I know what they would say.

[Rover]

Take one person out of Omaha and it is really a struggling city. As long as Warren Buffet is there Omaha will be fine.

I get the impression that this thread wasn't really created to ask the question, but rather as a forum for a certain person to beat Omaha's drum.

[MikeOKC]

Take one person out of Omaha and it is really a struggling city. As long as Warren Buffet is there Omaha will be fine.

They'll be fine without Warren when the time comes. Berkshire-Hathaway doesn't go anywhere.

Omaha has five companies listed on the Fortune 500 list, including Berkshire Hathaway (#12), Union Pacific (#151), ConAgra Foods, Inc. (#173), Peter Kiewit and Sons, Inc. (#446) and Mutual of Omaha (#489).[33] Omaha is home to the headquarters of several other major corporations, including The Gallup Organization, TD Ameritrade, infoUSA, Werner Enterprises and First National Bank. Many large technology firms have major operations or operational headquarters in Omaha, including First Data, PayPal and LinkedIn. The city is also home to three of the 30 largest architecture firms in the United States, including HDR, Inc., DLR Group, Inc., and Leo A. Daly Co..[34] The Lozier Corporation, First Data Corp, ITI Marketing Services, Omaha Steaks, Pamida, Oriental Trading Company, Valmont Industries, First Comp Insurance, and Godfather's Pizza also are based in the city.

[dmoor82]

I found the link dmoor82 was looking for. http://www.okc.gov/planning/coretosh...finalrepor.pdf. Oklahoma City is considered a "peer city" and "current competitor" with Omaha. It focuses on the convention business. Why not ask Convention & Tourism if we compete with Omaha? I think I know what they would say.

^^Thanks!OKC lacks in convention space and ammenities,but that will all change with The new convention center!Even with The smaller convetion space OKC has more convention visitors and hotel rooms!

[Spartan]

My point wasn't that higher priced units are what we should be building. My point was that there has been rather strident criticism of price per square foot of what has been built, implying they are overpriced, not simply that they're not the price points people are looking for AND criticizing developers for thinking that people might be willing to pay those prices. But, when you look at places like Omaha that have prices that are significantly higher than what is being criticized here, it certainly makes one think perhaps people living here aren't necessarily being realistic about what it is costing developers for their developments. Or, perhaps a mistake was made thinking people who could pay those price points would be willing to gamble, buying downtown homes without a lot of reassuring surrounding development. Regardless, perhaps it may be presumptuous to expect better prices without a corresponding significant decrease in quality of building materials. It's hard to believe land costs, materials and labor are exorbitantly higher than here.

Well, I think the folks trying to make it a personal or ethical issue are just nuts. They need to realize that OCURA was unabashedly slanted toward the higher-end units, and these guys had to participate in an RFP and bidding process before they could even own the land they wanted to develop. OCURA was just furthering the flawed thinking being put out there pre-bust by the downtown club. I think it's more important to just get the thinking right, and have a good formula that results in as much occupied housing as possible. I know there's been strident criticism on here of the higher-end units, but some people just thrive on that stuff, and I see where it could come off wrong to someone who lives in one of downtown's sweetest abodes.

The strident criticism is just a dumb counter-thought out there.. but I can not stress enough how important it is to focus on rentals, simply because of the story told by the numbers.

[Spartan]

They'll be fine without Warren when the time comes. Berkshire-Hathaway doesn't go anywhere.

Omaha has five companies listed on the Fortune 500 list, including Berkshire Hathaway (#12), Union Pacific (#151), ConAgra Foods, Inc. (#173), Peter Kiewit and Sons, Inc. (#446) and Mutual of Omaha (#489).[33] Omaha is home to the headquarters of several other major corporations, including The Gallup Organization, TD Ameritrade, infoUSA, Werner Enterprises and First National Bank. Many large technology firms have major operations or operational headquarters in Omaha, including First Data, PayPal and LinkedIn. The city is also home to three of the 30 largest architecture firms in the United States, including HDR, Inc., DLR Group, Inc., and Leo A. Daly Co..[34] The Lozier Corporation, First Data Corp, ITI Marketing Services, Omaha Steaks, Pamida, Oriental Trading Company, Valmont Industries, First Comp Insurance, and Godfather's Pizza also are based in the city.

A few of those Omaha-based outfits were actually Buffet purchases though, and even more of them were "Buffet-eer" purchases, referring to the group of investors in Omaha who try to position themselves with Buffet. I think it is completely fair to say that if Buffet lived somewhere else, Omaha would be no bigger than Sioux City up the river, which is still a very decent city.

Isn't Burlington Northern also Omaha-based?

[Meaculpa]

MikeOKC,

Thanks. That was the document I was referencing.

[Swake2]

So, may I ask just what story line it is that OKC and Tulsa have in common? The two cities aren't even close to being brothers in terms of their built environment.

I said they are peers, not that they are similar, they obviously are not very similar.

There are similar story lines to these larger cities that have had a lot of success. Austin is similar with the university and state government as a key piece of their economic development.

I think there are a lot of similarities between Austin and Oklahoma City, but they are no longer peers.

Indy is similar with the importance of the correlation between their downtown development and their convention business. Nashville is another similarly-sized state capital that's doing a lot of cool stuff downtown.

Oklahoma City relative to Indy has almost no convention industry. And Nashville is not a state capital.

Charlotte is similar to OKC in terms of the sheer dollar amount of downtown development. Large new towers.

No, Oklahoma City is not similar to Charlotte in the amount of recent downtown development. Charlotte is far outpacing Oklahoma City in and out of the core growing by 40% in the last decade adding over 400k people.

With the exception of Austin, these are all also pro sports cities. OKC is a pro sports city. We have the Thunder and Sooners, basically an NFL team. Tulsa has nothing, 60 miles to Stillwater. Austin has the Longhorns, also basically an NFL team, and an NBA team right now. College sports and pro sports are not the same thing at all.Charlotte has the Panthers and Bobcats. Nashville has the Titans and the Preds.

Think of some other cities without pro teams that could be comparable...

Albuquerque..just don't see a story line there. UNM? Yeah right. Downtown Albuquerque? Yeah it's an alright place, the but the investment activity is not even in the same universe.

Louisville..there is a possible story line there. New arena downtown, some reasonable hopes of landing a franchise. Great downtown, probably a similar level of investment, but only if you include the last ten years for Louisville. Similar national profile. Similar size.

Omaha..I just don't see the story line here, other than that both Omaha and OKC are having a lot of success right now. But is it similar success? Omaha benefits from having a prominent white collar corporate base. OKC does not have that. The downtowns are very similar, but Omaha doesn't have as much investment activity as OKC. And it is considerably smaller and colder, more Midwestern.

I would say there are other cities out there that have a lot in common with OKC and could be considered on the same level. Memphis comes to mind immediately as a very close sister city, but not really a competitor. The only difference between the two cities is that OKC is a much more successful city right now. Jacksonville, Raleigh-Durham, Birmingham, Columbus, Buffalo, Louisville, Austin, Fort Worth, Charlotte, Nashville, Sacramento, Salt Lake City, et al I would say are all acceptable peer cities of OKC.

Good lord, Ft Worth is not a peer city of Oklahoma City, not remotely, Tarrant County alone has over 1.7 million people. The Ft Worth section of the Metroplex is nearing 3 million and will have four million long before Oklahoma City hits 1.5 million. Sacramento has over 2.6 million people and is booming. Charlotte, Raleigh-Durham and Austin have growth rates triple that of OKC and all three will have over 2 million people in the next few years. Columbus has over two million people. These cities, except for few like Buffalo and SLC are all much larger than Oklahoma City than OKC is larger than Tulsa or Omaha.

Larger cities that deserve our attention: Portland, Denver, Dallas, possibly LA
Similar cities that deserve our attention: Ft. Worth, Salt Lake, Sacramento, Raleigh-Durham, Louisville
Smaller cities that deserve our attention: Des Moines, Little Rock, Sioux Falls, maybe some others?

I just think this has more to do with amenities than anything else. Some cities can box above their weight if they have the right amenities. It would seem that OKC, with its downtown, has the potential to do this.

Oklahoma City is doing some really nice things, but there's a long way to go, and growth remains lackluster. Here's hoping that changes.

[BG918]

^ Nashville is the capital of Tennessee. I'd say it is a peer city for OKC.

[leprechaun]

Devon Tower and everything associated with that -- including bringing another big employer to the city -- is a massive private investment, just in itself representing almost a billion dollars. And it would never would have happened without all the groundwork that has been laid through MAPS.

And Chesapeake is pushing a billion in it's various real estate investments around 63rd & Western.

I think we'll see much more private investment in the near future, especially as the financial institutions shake the jitters. It's pretty amazing what has occurred given the national recession, and I think even bigger/better things lie directly ahead.

Agreed. It is amazing that according to skyscraperpage.com, Devon Tower is the tallest building under construction outside of New York. I was following skyscraper construction before the recession and it seemed as though the country was in a construction boom, and when the recession hit, almost all new construction and proposals completely came to a halt. The fact that Devon Tower was proposed and built in the middle of the recession is indeed a testament to our stable economy.

"Private Investment" was a poor choice of words on my part. I am thinking in terms of smaller urban infill and living options. With the city's promotion of downtown as a place to live, work, play, etc., and all of the great public and private projects that have been completed and with many more to come, downtown is still primarily a destination point for entertainment and work that doesn't come close to resembling a functioning community. Residential and retail establishments are still severely lacking. It is strange to me that after getting an NBA team and the construction of an 850 ft building, people are still moving downtown at a snail's pace, and not one grocery store is willing to take a chance downtown. I assumed these developments would act as a catalyst for a boom in downtown urban living. I didn't expect anything remotely like Austin's downtown construction boom, but I thought we would get a few new amenities and living options, or at least the condos that were half full would become fully occupied.

In the Old Market area of downtown Omaha, there are numerous living options, a grocery store within walking distance, and many restaurants and bars. Not to mention a great music scene. Overall OKC has much more going for it than Omaha, but what perplexes me is the lack of demand for urban amenities and living options compared to other cities. It must be a cultural thing. I guess when considering that Oklahomans get married and have kids at a younger age than the national average they would be more likely to purchase a McMansion. If the trend for millennials is moving away from McMansions, OKC is the anomaly, or at least the last place in the country to catch on. Also, until very recently there was no such thing as urban living in OKC, so many people don't even consider downtown as an option. Unfortunately, the perception of the inner city is still considered "ghetto".

I realize that OKC is making progress in developing downtown as a real community, but the slow pace makes me wonder whether downtown will ever see a boom in residential or retail infill construction. Of course Deep Deuce saw a considerable amount of infill in recent years, but it has taken much longer than expected for them to become occupied. If the arrival of an NBA team, Devon Tower, and anticipation of future projects isn't causing a construction boom, what will? With the slow rate of development in already established districts, I fear that the core to shore project could take well over fifty years to fully develop, and like others have pointed out, at the expense of other districts. Maybe as more people become aware of downtown living options or the possible arrival of a grocery store in Deep Deuce, urban living will catch on.

[G.Walker]

2011 RANKINGS AND RECOGNITION

Omaha was listed among Seven Cities That Have Caught Start-Up Fever (Details – February 2011)

Omaha was named one of 10 Up-And-Coming Startup Hubs From Around the World (Grasshopper Group – January 2011)

#1 – America’s Most Affordable Cities (Forbes – January 2011)
Omaha was named one of America’s Lowest-Risk Housing Markets (SmartMoney.com – January 2011)

[betts]

The strident criticism is just a dumb counter-thought out there.. but I can not stress enough how important it is to focus on rentals, simply because of the story told by the numbers.

Spartan, I think it's fine to focus on rentals. However, remember how long it takes to go from concept to existing development. The current excitement over rentals exists at least partially because of the current economic conditions. By the time rentals are constructed, there will be streetcar plans and cars ordered, a new downtown park and potentially a completely different economic climate. Enthusiasm may have shifted to an entirely different type of housing. There are many cities that have overbuilt rentals. The housing market is faddish and personally, I think it's important to have a nice mix. I also know that in most cities currently downtown has the most expensive housing and it gets cheaper as you get farther away from the CBD. If you're an entry level buyer you understand that you need to live a bit further out until you've worked awhile, made some money and can afford to move closer in. I don't think OCURA was necessarily wrong to slant it the way they did. Imagine Deep Deuce filled with EIFS faced, quickly thrown up cheap housing units that focus on inexpensive price rather than quality construction. What do you think we'd be saying about housing in Deep Deuce 10 years from now? Yes, we might have density, but how do you even renovate that or appeal to a different income group from the entry level purchasers? Again, what makes downtown housing appealing in other cities is either very old, very high quality housing or new high quality housing. Not Memorial Road type apartment units that someone happened to put up for sale instead of rent. I think, just like in Bricktown, we need to be very careful what we accept in the name of development and sometimes empty lots are better than a low quality development.

[dmoor82]

2011 RANKINGS AND RECOGNITION

Omaha was listed among Seven Cities That Have Caught Start-Up Fever (Details – February 2011)

Omaha was named one of 10 Up-And-Coming Startup Hubs From Around the World (Grasshopper Group – January 2011)

#1 – America’s Most Affordable Cities (Forbes – January 2011)
Omaha was named one of America’s Lowest-Risk Housing Markets (SmartMoney.com – January 2011)

^^OKC has no national rankings,Omaha wins, thread over!

[icecold]

I mean how long are we going to ride the white horses of Devon and Chesapeake?

I vote forever. Devon and CHK arent exactly bad for the city.

[dmoor82]

I vote forever. Devon and CHK arent exactly bad for the city.

Investing Billions into our city and building an 850ft tall skyscraper and re doing our dt streets is LUDACRIS!I vote to kick them both out of OKC!

[Pete]

It's actually a very good question posed by G. Walker. Why aren't new companies moving their operations to Oklahoma City? If they can move to Omaha, like Gallup, etc. - why not Oklahoma City? Perfectly valid question.

Gallup moved from Lincoln to be closer to a decent airport. AND Omaha is not their HQ, it's in Washington D.C. Omaha is the location of the "Operations Center".


SandRidge, Devon, Chesapeake and Continental are true HQ's offering lots of very high-paid jobs and great work environments while investing literally billions into our community. If there are competing cities that have been getting more of these types of employers in the last decade, I'd like someone to cite specific examples.

[Spartan]

I said they are peers, not that they are similar, they obviously are not very similar.


I think there are a lot of similarities between Austin and Oklahoma City, but they are no longer peers.


Oklahoma City relative to Indy has almost no convention industry. And Nashville is not a state capital.


No, Oklahoma City is not similar to Charlotte in the amount of recent downtown development. Charlotte is far outpacing Oklahoma City in and out of the core growing by 40% in the last decade adding over 400k people.



Good lord, Ft Worth is not a peer city of Oklahoma City, not remotely, Tarrant County alone has over 1.7 million people. The Ft Worth section of the Metroplex is nearing 3 million and will have four million long before Oklahoma City hits 1.5 million. Sacramento has over 2.6 million people and is booming. Charlotte, Raleigh-Durham and Austin have growth rates triple that of OKC and all three will have over 2 million people in the next few years. Columbus has over two million people. These cities, except for few like Buffalo and SLC are all much larger than Oklahoma City than OKC is larger than Tulsa or Omaha.



Oklahoma City is doing some really nice things, but there's a long way to go, and growth remains lackluster. Here's hoping that changes.

Let me just first say that your trademark abrasive style is really showing, and it is sooo tempting to reply in kind, especially since you apparently don't know your state capitals...

I agree that OKC's growth is lackluster. This is nothing we don't all know. OKC has been stuck around 10-15% for the last half decade. You didn't seem to want to address Salt Lake, Memphis, Jax, or Buffalo. Oh well. Yes, some of the cities I suggested are growing more, some less, some are bigger, some are slightly smaller. The important thing is that they are peer cities, they are competition for OKC for the most part, and they do have similar story lines.

If you're looking for a city that is very similar to OKC, you won't find one more similar than Ft. Worth. OKC would kill for some of their Museum District development somewhere outside the downtown area, BUT right now it's vital that OKC keep focusing on downtown, which has turned out very well for us.

I wouldn't say these cities are outpacing OKC. In terms of attracting jobs and investment, OKC is keeping up. You can't just look at population figures because if that was the most important thing, we would just pass a civic order banning rubbers, and the problem would be solved...the hospitals would be full of new Oklahoma Citians, regardless of any "brain drain." OKC is doing very well in attracting and maintaining quality jobs right now, and when it comes to core development, I think you underestimate the sheer dollar figure of everything going on in OKC. It is in the billions and billions of dollars.

Tulsa is a really nice city, and everyone on here knows I'm usually an ardent supporter of Tulsa, and one of its biggest fans. But Tulsa is not a peer city of OKC's, plain and simple as that. Tulsa is content with where it is, partly because I think it's plainly obvious that Tulsa isn't going to be a "big league city" any time soon, and because Tulsa isn't exactly in a make-or-break situation. Tulsa will just continue to be a nice place to live with a lot of other things going for it.

OKC is completely different. OKC is a city that was in a hard situation not long ago, and persevered through it. OKC has completely reinvented itself, and I don't think that's typical hyperbole from me either. OKC is a new and different city than it was 20 years ago. It's striving to be something bigger and better than it is now. That alone makes it a completely different kind of city than Tulsa.

[Pete]

I realize that OKC is making progress in developing downtown as a real community, but the slow pace makes me wonder whether downtown will ever see a boom in residential or retail infill construction. Of course Deep Deuce saw a considerable amount of infill in recent years, but it has taken much longer than expected for them to become occupied. If the arrival of an NBA team, Devon Tower, and anticipation of future projects isn't causing a construction boom, what will?

In-fill are always smaller projects usually by smaller developers. OKC has had a ton of them proposed (many, many examples on this board) that never came off. The economy is the main culprit, especially the lenders.

And in fairness, there have been literally dozens of these completed already, we just tend to forget about them because there are still large holes.

Because of urban renewal and horrible planning, OKC started this push in a much bigger hole than most others.