Is Omaha OKC's new competitor?

[SkyWestOKC]

OKC has a similar catchment area, pretty much all of western Oklahoma until you get closer to Amarillo. Also, OMA competes with Kansas City -- also a monster. Lincoln also has an airport.

[G.Walker]

First National Center Omaha

[betts]

I'm just not sure what has happened in Oklahoma City that would make a developer confident that a project like any of these pictured would succeed. Aren't we currently on the 'rental or downtown housing has to be less than $150 a square foot' bandwagon right now? If these developments are or will be successful, then I think we have to say we're behind Omaha in terms of urban development, at least as far as downtown housing is concerned. Obviously we're a bigger city, but perhaps we're a bigger city with a less progressive attitude.

On the other hand.......you couldn't pay me enough money to live in Omaha, and I'm pretty happy here.

[G.Walker]

See, that’s kinda funny, so the takeaway here is that OKCs peer cities are Charlotte, Nashville, Austin, Indianapolis and not Omaha based on the fact that Omaha is so much smaller than OKC.

But while Omaha is not a peer city because Omaha is 44.5% smaller than OKC, Oklahoma City is 42.2%, 28.9%, 42.1% and 38.9% respectively smaller than it’s peer cities. So it seems that the line between peer and non peer is set at right at a 43% difference, in MSA only (please don’t look at CSA). In that case you would have to at least admit that Tulsa is a peer city to Oklahoma City, because Tulsa is only 32.1% smaller than Oklahoma City.

Boy, that’s not gonna fly on this board.

Another note on OKCs real “peer” cities, Charlotte added 40k people just last year, three of these peer cities had growth rates of over 20% last decade and two added over 400k people with growth rates over 40%. And if you do look at CSA, Indianapolis’s CSA is 59% larger than Oklahoma City’s and Charlotte’s is 84% larger. At current growth rates Austin will pass the two million mark in the next five years or so.

Oklahoma City has a lot more in common with Tulsa and Omaha than it does with Austin, Indianapolis or Charlotte. Austin used to be a peer city of Oklahoma City, but not anymore.

thank you, you get it!

[Swake2]

Yes, there is nothing even remotely close geographically.

It's a very isolated city in general. I'd bet that almost no one on this thread has been to Omaha simply due to this fact. It's not on the way to anywhere people go with any regularity.

It is one of the very few American cities I have never visited.

I’ve been to Omaha. It’s really a great city, very wealthy. Feels a lot like Tulsa. The downtown is very well developed and they have a long established riverfront urban core that is well beyond what Tulsa or Oklahoma City has. They have zero need for a “core to shore” plan.

And Omaha is not that isolated. It’s less than an hour to Lincoln, two hours or so to Des Moines, about two and a half hours to Kansas City. Seven hours to Chicago and the Twin Cities.

[Pete]

See, that’s kinda funny, so the takeaway here is that OKCs peer cities are Charlotte, Nashville, Austin, Indianapolis and not Omaha based on the fact that Omaha is so much smaller than OKC.

No, what people are saying is that we don't see Omaha as a much a competitor and we'd rather set our focus on the likes of the bigger fish you mentioned, which are ahead but not out of our sights.

It's not just where cities are, it's about the current trajectories. See dozens and dozens of articles and polls (tons linked on this site) from just the last few years about how OKC is being regarded nationally. It's not just a bunch of homers on a message board looking at things through rose-colored glasses.


Tulsans don't sit around comparing themselves to Baton Rouge and Fresno -- and both places are way closer in population than OKC and growing at a faster rate than T-town.

[betts]

But, G. Walker, we've got an NBA team, and that, to me, is far more of a statement that we've arrived as a city than a few downtown developments. There are only 30 cities with one, and that pushes us up into the stratosphere of bigger cities. I value our team a lot more than a few fancy buildings too. Eventually, I suspect we will catch up with what seems like the rest of the country, in terms of our attitude towards urbanism. When Omaha and Des Moines have more going on with downtown residential living than we do, that means we're behind, relative to our size. The pony express carrying the news that it's cool to live downtown hasn't arrived here yet, for most people. Theoretically, it will.

[G.Walker]

The Lofts at SoMa in Old Market district of downtown Omaha.

[betts]

The Lofts at SoMa in Old Market district of downtown Omaha.

Those look almost identical to LEVEL.

[G.Walker]

But, G. Walker, we've got an NBA team, and that, to me, is far more of a statement that we've arrived as a city than a few downtown developments. There are only 30 cities with one, and that pushes us up into the stratosphere of bigger cities. I value our team a lot more than a few fancy buildings too. Eventually, I suspect we will catch up with what seems like the rest of the country, in terms of our attitude towards urbanism. When Omaha and Des Moines have more going on with downtown residential living than we do, that means we're behind, relative to our size. The pony express carrying the news that it's cool to live downtown hasn't arrived here yet, for most people. Theoretically, it will.

Don't be surprised if Omaha lands an NBA team soon, as New Orleans and Memphis will be looking for new cities!

[G.Walker]

Those look almost identical to LEVEL.

yea they do, lol...

[betts]

Don't be surprised if Omaha lands an NBA team soon, as New Orleans and Memphis will be looking for new cities!

No way in hell do they get an NBA team. You may like Omaha, and I realize that Oklahoma City was a longshot to get a team, but I'll just about bet my bank account that will not happen in the forseeable future. I'll be surprised if they get an NHL team in the near future.

[Pete]

Omaha had an NBA team and lost it.

The Kings (now in Sacramento) split time between Omaha and Kansas City for most of the 1970's.

[MikeOKC]

If you dropped a group of people into OKC and then Omaha, I don't think any serious person could argue Oklahoma City has the more urban feel. Old Market in Omaha and the financial district alone trump anything urban about Oklahoma City. They're not that much smaller and, frankly, the demographics are a lot more appealing to the business and retail community. The climate - only - holds Omaha back. It's been a city that 'feels' bigger than Oklahoma City for years. I've spent quite a bit of time in Omaha over the last 25 years and it's obvious a lot of people in this thread have a stereotypical attitude ("Don't compare us to Omaha). If people could only hear how people say the same about Oklahoma City. Yes, still. I agree with Pete though, these kind of threads are good and spolied only by only a few who seem shocked to be put into the same company as Omaha. Visit and you'll sing a different tune.

[Swake2]

Louisville and Hampton Roads would really like teams. Kansas City would too, but is probably overreaching with NFL and MLB there already. Louisville certainly is a peer city of Oklahoma City. Hampton Roads is quite a bit larger however with faster growth. They are probably more in Kansas City and Charlotte's league. With no pro teams at all.

[betts]

Omaha had an NBA team and lost it.

The Kings (now in Sacramento) split time between Omaha and Kansas City for most of the 1970's.

Precisely. Regardless, San Diego, Vanouver, Seattle, Las Vegas, Kansas City, Louisville, Birmingham, Ala. and multiple other cities have bigger television markets than Omaha and don't have an NBA team. Omaha's DMA ranking is 76. Oklahoma City is ranked 45th and is only bigger than New Orleans and Memphis, in terms of NBA cities.

[Pete]

Mike, the reason cities like Omaha (and Louisville and Milwaukee and Pittsburgh and even Des Moines) can feel more urban is that they were developed along navigable waterways that not only provided a concentrated origin but continues to be a focal point for development / re-development and recreation. And usually, these cities grow in one or two primary directions because of the same feature, so that also focuses the perimeter areas just outside the core.

It's a bit of an unfair comparison... It's not really anything those cities did that we can copy, it's just different geography. At least OKC is trying to change this and it's already happening with the Oklahoma River and the development that is going on now and the tons more that is proposed.

[MikeOKC]

Mike, the reason cities like Omaha (and Louisville and Milwaukee and Pittsburgh and even Des Moines) can feel more urban is that they were developed along navigable waterways that not only provided a concentrated origin but continues to be a focal point for development / re-development and recreation. And usually, these cities grow in one or two primary directions because of the same feature, so that also focuses the perimeter areas just outside the core.

It's a bit of an unfair comparison... It's not really anything those cities did that we can copy, it's just different geography. At least OKC is trying to change this and it's already happening with the Oklahoma River and the development that is going on now and the tons more that is proposed.

Fair point and very true.

[betts]

Those other cities are also all in states that were founded far earlier than Oklahoma. In addition, none of them had I.M. Pei "help" them gussy their downtown up like we did.

On the other hand, if they're charging $300 a square foot for townhouses in Omaha, perhaps the prices charged here aren't so outrageous and we need to not be so strident in our criticism of developers. If we want development, we may have to allow developers to make a decent profit.

[G.Walker]

Blue Lofts in downtown Omaha

[Pete]

It's this lack of focus (not being centered on or near a waterfront) that continues to be a real challenge for OKC in my opinion.

Think of all the areas we are trying to simultaneous develop / invigorate in an effort to develop ONE true urban neighborhood: the CBD, Bricktown, Lower Bricktown, Core to Shore, Deep Deuce, Midtown, 23rd Street, Film Row, Automobile Alley, South of Saint Anthony, the River, the Health Sciences Center, the Capitol Complex.... Good Grief!!

In different circumstances all this would be concentrated along / near the waterfront and we'd parade all our visitors down there and marvel at the central city. Then we'd concentrate on the one nice area directly north of there and do lots of renovation and in-fill and the young and trendy would flock. And then lots of other neighborhoods would fall in line.

I sometimes fear our lack of focus (and the way the city has always been developed: radiating out in all directions) is going to be our biggest downfall as none of these areas are really over the hump. You could see any or all of them do a backwards slide, as it has happened in all those areas before and in some cases, within the last few decades.

[kevinpate]

I'm not gonna argue the cities are competitors, but the iamges being presented show that Omaha, lil' brother though it may be, has a lot going on that OKC is only now getting to the drawing boards.

I for one am jealous that they apparently know how to build a pedestrian bridge the way OKC wanted to, before OKC decided it didn't.
Nice convention Center and convention hotel
Nice Riverfront projects that remind me of what the south end of C2S will hopefully look like, in a decade.
Nice high rises
Nice concentration of wealth
Cons - it's in freakin' Nebraska. Nuf Said, lol

[betts]

It's this lack of focus (not being centered on or near a waterfront) that continues to be a real challenge for OKC in my opinion.

Think of all the areas we are trying to simultaneous develop / invigorate in an effort to develop ONE true urban neighborhood: the CBD, Bricktown, Lower Bricktown, Core to Shore, Deep Deuce, Midtown, 23rd Street, Film Row, Automobile Alley, South of Saint Anthony, the River, the Health Sciences Center, the Capitol Complex.... Good Grief!!

In different circumstances all this would be concentrated along / near the waterfront and we'd parade all our visitors down there and marvel at the central city. Then we'd concentrate on the one nice area directly north of there and do lots of renovation and in-fill and the young and trendy would flock. And then lots of other neighborhoods would fall in line.

I sometimes fear our lack of focus (and the way the city has always been developed: radiating out in all directions) is going to be our biggest downfall as none of these areas are really over the hump. You could see any or all of them do a backwards slide, as it has happened in all those areas before and in some cases, within the last few decades.

Although I see what you're saying, Pete, to me they're all part of the same area. They have distinct names, but they're so close that what helps one helps the rest, IMO. And, they all have enough of a different flavor that our diversity of options offers something for everyone, which is an advantage we have over development in other cities.

Any development in Midtown helps me, a Deep Deuce resident, because it's so easy for me to get there. Anything built in Bricktown or Lower Bricktown are within walking distance of me and each other. Film row offers the advantage of proximity to the CBD, but has a unique flavor that could easily foster development of an arts community there. Automobile Alley's emphasis will be restaurants, businesses and retail, which makes living in Deep Deuce, Midtown, Heritage Hills and Mesta Park more enjoyable, because we're all close enough to walk there....or eventually take the streetcar. SoSA residents can enjoy Midtown development, but they're also incredibly close to Film Row and the CBD. 23rd St. is the farthest, but again, the flavor is so different and there's so much population close to 23rd that it's going to be very attractive to a lot of people if developed. The Health Sciences Center just keeps growing, seemingly without any growing pains. And, if we can ultimately link the Capital Complex to the CBD and the Health Sciences Center via streetcar, it too joins the group.

[Pete]

I hear you betts and I greatly respect you have put your money where you mouth is by purchasing a very expensive piece of real estate pretty early in this process.


I just look how other cities -- those that we all love to call urban and walkable -- have done it and it's all been pretty much the way I described above. Baltimore and Cleveland are two great examples. They both had horrible images but simply redeveloped their waterfront and built a new throw-back ballpark and people raved. Never mind the areas around were still very blighted because everyone could just go to one place where there was critical mass. Then the surrounding areas took on a life of their own.

Or, you had cities like Milwaukee that already had a good number of colleges near downtown (again, because they were developed back when the city was only built up near the waterfront) and so there was never a mass exodus because of the students. And then, more young people moved in when the middle class fled to the suburbs.

To be fair, at least OKC has Bricktown and thank goodness for that. If and when we get over the urban hump and all these various areas congeal and even start to overlap, I think it's that old warehouse district that should be given the credit because that was the first place where any degree of new urbanism found a toehold.

[G.Walker]

Gallup Campus
Gallup’s decision to relocate its headquarter operations to Omaha launched an expanded riverfront development effort north of Interstate 480. This massive relocation and clean-up project paved the way for Gallup to open their $81-million riverfront campus in 2003. A $27 million, 100,000-square-foot expansion was opened in the fall of 2009.