I-235 / I-44 Interchange

[rte66man]

Pretty sure the reason the I235/I44 interchange doesn't have flyovers planned for S to E and W to S is due to the proximity of the Lincoln Blvd and I44 interchange and not having to acquire any buildings. It's so close to the I44/I235 interchange that there would have to be a ton of bridge work to separate traffic. In other words, there isn't enough distance to allow S to E traffic coming off the I44/I235 interchange to join down with the mainline I44 to then exit at Lincoln. Same goes for the Lincoln to W-bound I44 onramp mixing with the W to S flyover of I44/I235.

Could the engineers have made it work logistically, absolutely, but it would have significantly increased the cost and they would've had to do some redesign of the Lincoln/I44 interchange. Don't think those costs would've been reasonable to add to the budget considering this was already one of the most expensive interchanges in our history. Not to mention, there's also the question of traffic demand....does the traffic on those two motions at the I44/I235 interchange actually need/justify having flyovers. I wouldn't think so. Would I love to see them, absolutely, but reality kicks in and says we can't afford or justify them.

True. Lack of funding is why the Santa Fe flyover was eliminated. That will be missed whent here is a wreck at this interchange.

[josh]

^^^Josh, just curious, what is SAs highest ADT count freeway? I think OKC’s is I-44 by the fairground pushing 230k cars a day.

Highest count is 300,000 on Loop 410 at Blanco Road in north central San Antonio. The entire northern arc of 410 averages over 250,000 cars.

If you want to know more, there’s an entire website dedicated to San Antonio freeways.

[josh]

^^^Josh, just curious, what is SAs highest ADT count freeway? I think OKCÂ’s is I-44 by the fairground pushing 230k cars a day.

According to the link lazio85 posted, that area of 44 only has a count of about 150,000. I wonder why the large difference between your number and his.

[jccouger]

Just had my first trip over the new flyover. While the lack of merge area at the end is concerning, it helps that you get a birds' eye view of the lanes you are about to merge with. While that may not be much help when the freeway is clogged at 5:00, at lighter times, you can see the traffic flowing on I-44 and anticipate where you can enter when you reach the end of the ramp.

Is the lack of merge area temporary or is this how its designed permanently?

[David]

I couldn't point at the final solution in the plans, but there's pretty much no way it isn't a temporary, mid-construction solution that will be different once everything is finished.

[jn1780]

Is the lack of merge area temporary or is this how its designed permanently?

Its only temporary. Its only like this because WB is currently having to share lane space with EB.

[HangryHippo]

True. Lack of funding is why the Santa Fe flyover was eliminated. That will be missed whent here is a wreck at this interchange.

Is there a rendering of the Santa Fe flyover?

[David]

I'm slightly confused by it being called a flyover so this might be something else, but early plans had a Santa Fe bridge. I've attached a rendering of the design with it I have saved from years back.

[Plutonic Panda]

OKC's largest AADT is 167,200 on I-44 just south of Lake Hefner Pkwy/Hwy 74.
https://www.odot.org/maps/aadt/2018/...MetroAreas.pdf

Oh wow I was way off. Thanks for the information.

Highest count is 300,000 on Loop 410 at Blanco Road in north central San Antonio. The entire northern arc of 410 averages over 250,000 cars.

If you want to know more, there’s an entire website dedicated to San Antonio freeways.

Nice! I figured SA had to have some near or over 300k per day.

According to the link lazio85 posted, that area of 44 only has a count of about 150,000. I wonder why the large difference between your number and his.

Im not sure. I swear I saw somewhere the stretch of I-44 by the fairgrounds had over 200k per day or maybe I read that was a projection in the future.

[josh]

Oh wow I was way off. Thanks for the information.

Nice! I figured SA had to have some near or over 300k per day.


Im not sure. I swear I saw somewhere the stretch of I-44 by the fairgrounds had over 200k per day or maybe I read that was a projection in the future.

Two of those 410 stretches are definitely over 300,000 by now. The Blanco and McCullough stretches.

[Lazio85]

According to the link lazio85 posted, that area of 44 only has a count of about 150,000. I wonder why the large difference between your number and his.

I referenced ODOT's 2018 number from the link I provided.

[josh]

I referenced ODOT's 2018 number from the link I provided.

Yes I know. I was questioning the large difference between both numbers. It just seems like Platonic misheard or misremembered.

[HOT ROD]

San Antonio metro has 2.5 million people, and given that it's growing by ~400k/decade and how sprawled out it is I can definitely see why TXDOT is building 5-stacks there.

Seattle is larger and grows by much more but we have no 5-stacks, and none planned. Not seeing the correlation for SA.

[HOT ROD]

San Antonio is a metro of over 2.5 million people and growing by 45k-50k a year. There are two major interstates running through the city and metro, I-10 and I-35. Not to mention two major perils that intersection many other auxiliary highways like 281, 90, 37, 151, etc.

San Antonio is also very spread out and very car dependent, as all of Texas is, so yes, we definitely have the traffic.

thanks Josh, this now makes sense to me.

SA just has way more highways and freeways than Seattle. OKC also has way more freeways than us. We're probably just as car dependent as SA but ya, we only have two interstates (I-5 and I-90) and I-90 is only about 15 miles in length (in the populated metro area). only I-405 in the east metro and I-705 in downtown Tacoma (like 3 miles or less). Not much freeway infrastructure so no stacks here. We do have hills, so some high bridges but no 5stacks.

[HOT ROD]

OKC's largest AADT is 167,200 on I-44 just south of Lake Hefner Pkwy/Hwy 74.
https://www.odot.org/maps/aadt/2018/...MetroAreas.pdf

wow, OKC crushes Tulsa's numbers. i wonder why the map has Tulsa much larger illustrated when the numbers are much smaller; almost half, of OKC's in most spots.

[Plutonic Panda]

thanks Josh, this now makes sense to me.

SA just has way more highways and freeways than Seattle. OKC also has way more freeways than us. We're probably just as car dependent as SA but ya, we only have two interstates (I-5 and I-90) and I-90 is only about 15 miles in length (in the populated metro area). only I-405 in the east metro and I-705 in downtown Tacoma (like 3 miles or less). Not much freeway infrastructure so no stacks here. We do have hills, so some high bridges but no 5stacks.

Seattle is also building several new freeways notably 509 and 167 extensions which will be absolutely beautiful roads when completed. I still haven’t made it to Seattle but I plan to soon. Super pumped. Washington DOT is one of the best, IMO, from what I know about them.

[rte66man]

I'm slightly confused by it being called a flyover so this might be something else, but early plans had a Santa Fe bridge. I've attached a rendering of the design with it I have saved from years back.

That is what I was referring to. A great relief route for the times traffic is snarled on 235/77.

[josh]

Seattle is larger and grows by much more but we have no 5-stacks, and none planned. Not seeing the correlation for SA.

Actually, San Antonio and Seattle are growing about the same or near same actually,

[HOT ROD]

Seattle is also building several new freeways notably 509 and 167 extensions which will be absolutely beautiful roads when completed. I still haven’t made it to Seattle but I plan to soon. Super pumped. Washington DOT is one of the best, IMO, from what I know about them.

you sure about that? WA 167 in Tacoma has been on the plans for years but nothing, poof; still a local "highway" at the biggest port in the state. Never heard of 509, where is that?.

Anyway, If they are true still - None of them are interstate, our freeways suck and there's NO accountability just raise taxes!. Just LOVE how they 'created' HOV lanes through most of I-5 by taking out the breakdown lanes and restriping. You can totally tell, as you drive over the man-hole covers and your car tires get trapped in the pavement edges. ... Oh, and that cost hundreds of millions - no accountability. ..

I-405 Express Toll lanes are awesome though, the best thing we have (even though again, breakdown lane was taken out on the Northern N bound section). ...

[HOT ROD]

Actually, San Antonio and Seattle are growing about the same or near same actually,

You'll find out the census will show Seattle metro as one of the fastest growing in the nation. Greater Seattle/Tacoma Metro (CSA) will be over 4.2M (up from 3.6M). City grew by over 150,000 people in 10 years to 780,000 (2019 est).

[Of Sound Mind]

I didn't realize the I-235/I-44 interchange is also located in Seattle and San Antonio.

[HangryHippo]

I'm slightly confused by it being called a flyover so this might be something else, but early plans had a Santa Fe bridge. I've attached a rendering of the design with it I have saved from years back.

Thanks, David. I didn't realize that bridge had been cut.

[Plutonic Panda]

you sure about that? WA 167 in Tacoma has been on the plans for years but nothing, poof; still a local "highway" at the biggest port in the state. Never heard of 509, where is that?.

Anyway, If they are true still - None of them are interstate, our freeways suck and there's NO accountability just raise taxes!. Just LOVE how they 'created' HOV lanes through most of I-5 by taking out the breakdown lanes and restriping. You can totally tell, as you drive over the man-hole covers and your car tires get trapped in the pavement edges. ... Oh, and that cost hundreds of millions - no accountability. ..

I-405 Express Toll lanes are awesome though, the best thing we have (even though again, breakdown lane was taken out on the Northern N bound section). ...

Unless something has changed

https://wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Gateway/default.htm

[I235+I44]

I didn't realize the I-235/I-44 interchange is also located in Seattle and San Antonio.

Thanks for bringing it up. I was wondering the same too.

[Bellaboo]

Plus 1 here.